Ogre vs. Troll "Casters" (was: Race proposal: Moon Troll)

[dynast]

Trolls are not better than ogres at casting, stop exaggerating.

[duvessa]

Yeah they are. Better early game survivability. Much less centralized on Trog. Much more benefit from forms.

[dynast]

We are talking about casting, not survivability.

[Hirsch I]

you have to be alive to cast.
duvessa, well, trolls are better because they are impossible to lose with if you are paying attention, not as casters specifically. so are centaurs. do you think Nagas are better than ogres at casting? the slow movement makes them too vulnerable, and impossible to kite with...

[dynast]

Oh please, then troll is the best at everything by that stupid premise. Despite the fact you dont do anything other than claw stuff in the beginning no matter what background you pick for him, so you are not doing any of the things he supposedly the best at. Flawless logic.

[duvessa]

Despite the fact you dont do anything other than claw stuff in the beginning no matter what background you pick for him, so you are not doing any of the things he supposedly the best at.

Well, you do that, but that doesn't mean trolls are bad at casting. It just means that you are bad at playing most trolls.

[dynast]

What the way i play trolls have to do with it? Being good at something means being able to use said something to survive NOT being able to survive to use said something. Instead of trying to add context to why trolls are good at casting you slipped out of it, duvessa.

[duvessa]

I already gave the context??????
Trolls are mostly better at casting than ogres because:
1. Trolls have much better low skill melee than ogres, making spell skills more attractive
2. Trog is much less disproportionately good for trolls than he is for ogres, compared to other gods, and ogres of Trog are not going to be casting spells
3. Trolls have an actual incentive to cast transmutations that are not beastly appendage
But at this point I'm pretty sure you already knew that, and are just being intentionally obtuse.

[Hirsch I]

@dynast: thing is, aptitudes are not THAT important. there's a lot of EXP in the game, and if you can invest just a little in fighting, for example, to get beefy, that means you have a lot of EXP left to put into spells.
@duvessa: aren't troll claws stronger than forms? do they stack with any of them?

[duvessa]

@duvessa: aren't troll claws stronger than forms? do they stack with any of them?

No and they stack with statue form.

[Hirsch I]

good to know, thanks.

[kuniqs]

Kids, keep in mind that duvessa operates on D&D logic, where Mages are the best class 'cause they get Wish at lvl 18.

[Zooty]

Kids, keep in mind that duvessa operates on D&D logic, where Mages are the best class 'cause they get Wish at lvl 18.

This is pretty much exactly opposite of duvessa's logic.

[dynast]

HHAHAAHAHhaahah.

Wow duvessa. So trolls are better at casting but the only thing you can come up with is transmutations or god choices when making that assumption, completely ignoring everything else related to CASTING. So yeah, trolls are better transmuters than ogres, i can give you that, since transmutations is a spellschool with sinergy to fighting, preferably unarmed. But lets talk about conjurations, elemental spells, how about summoning? How do you even manage to toss Trog into a discussion about casting just shows how much you like opening with a vague statement that is clearly a lie, then starts redefining words to fit that statement, instead of saying " TrTm is better than OgTm" or "a mage starting ogre switches to trog to increase his winning probability, while a troll dont", or "troll casters have better winning odds than ogre casters". But if you said that it wouldnt support the stupid narrative of "Troll is better at casting than Ogre" so you have to do the opposite instead.

I would challenge you to play a no melee TrWz against a no melee OgWz, which means "playing a self imposed challenge reliant of casting", but that is just dick measuring at this point.

[njvack]

Oh please, then troll is the best at everything by that stupid premise.

There is also the -1 Earth Magic aptitude and -2 Necro aptitude. TrEE is actually pretty good at casting earth spells, and TrNe is not too horrible either. Yes, TrAE is going to be awful.

Og's +1 Spellcasting is nice except that spellcasting isn't super good at getting spell success and power up, and every other thing is -3. Int is also not much higher for Og than Tr.

Plus that whole "trolls can survive until they get enough XP to level even with awful aptitudes" thing.

[pubby]

Is there a character that could even possibly EVEN TOUCH Trolls? Let alone defeat them. And I'm not talking about Edo Tensei Trolls. I'm not talking about Gedou Rinne Tensei Caster Trolls either. Hell, I'm not even talking about Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Caster Trolls with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikodou abilities and being capable of both Amateratsu and Tsukuyomi genjutsu), equipped with his Gunbai, a perfect Susano'o, control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu. I’m also not talking about Kono Yo no Kyūseishu Futarime no Rikudō Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Caster Trolls with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan (which is capable of Enton Amaterasu, Izanagi, Izanami and the Tsyukuyomi Genjutsu), his two original Rinnegan (which grant him Chikushōdō, Shuradō, Tendō, Ningendō, Jigokudō, Gakidō, Gedō, Banshō Ten’in, Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei, Tengai Shinsei and Banbutsu Sōzō) and a third Tomoe Rinnegan on his forehead, capable of using Katon, Fūton, Raiton, Doton, Suiton, Mokuton, Ranton, Inton, Yōton and even Onmyōton Jutsu, equipped with his Gunbai(capable of using Castergaeshi) and a Shakujō because he is a master in kenjutsu and taijutsu, a perfect Susano’o (that can use Yasaka no Magatama ), control of both the Juubi and the Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju’s DNA and face implanted on his chest, his four Rinbo Hengoku Clones guarding him and nine Gudōdama floating behind him AFTER he absorbed Senjutsu from the First Hokage, entered Rikudō Senjutsu Mode, cast Mugen Tsukuyomi on everybody and used Shin: Jukai Kōtan so he can use their Chakra while they are under Genjutsu. I'm definitely NOT Talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Super Saiyan 4 Caster Trolls with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, controlling the Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after Alucard, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu and having eaten Popeye's spinach. I'm talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Legendary Super Saiyan 4 Caster Trolls with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with his Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, controlling the Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after having absorbed Alucard as well as a God Hand, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit, with Kryptonian DNA implanted in him and having eaten Popeye's spinach while possessing quantum powers like Berder and having mastered Hokuto Shinken.

[kuniqs]

Trolls have +30% hp. Elves -20% hp.
Checkmate, elves.

[1010011010]

I'm talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Legendary Super Saiyan 4 Caster Trolls with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with his Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, controlling the Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after having absorbed Alucard as well as a God Hand, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit, with Kryptonian DNA implanted in him and having eaten Popeye's spinach while possessing quantum powers like Berder and having mastered Hokuto Shinken.

...Demonbane.

[Lasty]

Some of the threads in here are getting a bit uncivil, more about personal attacks than the game itself. Please try to keep it civil, folks.

Obviously, I mean you, pubby.

[dynast]

There is also the -1 Earth Magic aptitude and -2 Necro aptitude. TrEE is actually pretty good at casting earth spells, and TrNe is not too horrible either. Yes, TrAE is going to be awful.

Og's +1 Spellcasting is nice except that spellcasting isn't super good at getting spell success and power up, and every other thing is -3. Int is also not much higher for Og than Tr.

I like the emphasis you add on a difference of 1 and 2, then prompt disregards the difference of 6 in spellcasting, its almost like you dont know what having magic pool is. Do you really believe a TrNe is gonna do better than a OgNe? A Ogre can at least cast pain at the start of the game, later getting regen and basically becoming a troll, they are not stuck with animate skeleton because they have to eat half of the corpses. A TrEE is as good as casting earth spells as he is as throwing rocks, while a Ogre is better at throwing rocks, but that doesnt matter.

Plus that whole "trolls can survive until they get enough XP to level even with awful aptitudes" thing.

Have you ever stopped to think why is that? Is it because they are good at casting or because they do not depend of it in the first place? Where do you guys get this thought process of "better overall == better at that specific thing alone".

[HardboiledGargoyle]

How do you even manage to toss Trog into a discussion about casting just shows how much you like opening with a vague statement that is clearly a lie, then starts redefining words to fit that statement

To be fair I see the point about wanting Trog even more as an ogre. You really want the weapon/ammo gifts. Trog's Hand gives you regen which trolls already have. You have some amazing physical apts, which encourages training them even higher at the expense of magic skills, because you get more out of it, due to the apt.

[duvessa]

EDIT: I do think there's a place for a large caster race; high HP, high MP, but otherwise low defenses and probably bad at melee.

naga

Na have some of the best defenses of any caster, owing to their scales PLUS barding PLUS good shield usability (15 Shields to remove large shield penalty? Yes please). They're also extremely good at melee - constriction is a gargantuan benefit once you get it.

Uhh no they don't, they have bad AC, bad EV, and average melee (which becomes bad melee due to the fact that nagas are slow) for like the first 10 XLs.

HHAHAAHAHhaahah.

Wow duvessa. So trolls are better at casting but the only thing you can come up with is transmutations or god choices when making that assumption, completely ignoring everything else related to CASTING. So yeah, trolls are better transmuters than ogres, i can give you that, since transmutations is a spellschool with sinergy to fighting, preferably unarmed. But lets talk about conjurations, elemental spells, how about summoning? How do you even manage to toss Trog into a discussion about casting just shows how much you like opening with a vague statement that is clearly a lie, then starts redefining words to fit that statement, instead of saying " TrTm is better than OgTm" or "a mage starting ogre switches to trog to increase his winning probability, while a troll dont", or "troll casters have better winning odds than ogre casters". But if you said that it wouldnt support the stupid narrative of "Troll is better at casting than Ogre" so you have to do the opposite instead.

I would challenge you to play a no melee TrWz against a no melee OgWz, which means "playing a self imposed challenge reliant of casting", but that is just dick measuring at this point.

Neither Tr nor Og has any reason to use conjurations. Comparing their ability to do so is nonsensical. Their ability to use "elemental spells" and summoning is so close that they're pretty much indistinguishable when doing that. Tr has more incentive to cast spells and less disincentive to get spells (weaker Trog, less xp needed for weapon skill), it's as simple as that. I toss Trog into a discussion about casting because Trog exists in the game, and it is completely ridiculous to pretend he doesn't when discussing strategy or species strength.

Do you really believe a TrNe is gonna do better than a OgNe?

Fuck yes I do.

[dynast]

To be fair I see the point about wanting Trog even more as an ogre. You really want the weapon/ammo gifts. Trog's Hand gives you regen which trolls already have. You have some amazing physical apts, which encourages training them even higher at the expense of magic skills, because you get more out of it, due to the apt.

You totally see the point to why its a good idea for a ogre to worship trog, you totally miss the point to why it doesnt have anything to do with the standard definition of being better at casting. Its way more appealing to a ogre to do anything but cast spells, because, unlike a troll, they have very positive apts, that doesnt make his casting abilities worse than a troll's though.

[duvessa]

What is the "standard definition of being better at casting"? Apparently it's not having an easier time casting spells, it's not getting more benefit from casting spells, and it's not spells being a better investment.

[dynast]

Neither Tr nor Og has any reason to use conjurations. Comparing their ability to do so is nonsensical. Their ability to use "elemental spells" and summoning is so close that they're pretty much indistinguishable when doing that. Tr has more incentive to cast spells and less disincentive to get spells (weaker Trog, less xp needed for weapon skill), it's as simple as that. I toss Trog into a discussion about casting because Trog exists in the game, and it is completely ridiculous to pretend he doesn't when discussing strategy or species strength.

Discussing strategy? Sorry but what you do is throw literal statements like "trolls are mostly better at casting" and when questioned gives your own definition of those words, instead of making corrections.

Do you really believe a TrNe is gonna do better than a OgNe?

Fuck yes I do.

Of course you do, i should have been more specific there, that was my bad, but i could just be like you instead and say that i meant a no melee Ne.

What is the "standard definition of being better at casting"? Apparently it's not having an easier time casting spells, it's not getting more benefit from casting spells, and it's not spells being a better investment.

Being better AT SPELLS BY COMPARISON of the spell defining factors alone.

Also, you are completely wrong about trolls being just as good summoners as ogres, but of course you are right, following your own definitions.

[ydeve]

What is the "standard definition of being better at casting"? Apparently it's not having an easier time casting spells, it's not getting more benefit from casting spells, and it's not spells being a better investment.

I was under the impression that the standard definition of casting is "main killdudes = spells."
That means you main killdudes is not melee or ranged, so you're looking at conjurations, necromancy, elemental schools, (does summoning count as a "caster?" I always thought of it as separate, a "summoner"). So if you're talking about ammo gifts, physical apts, or non-spell killdudes being a main factor in your decision making, you are no longer looking at a caster, but rather at a hybrid or something else.

Hence, if you are talking about Trog, you are, by definition, not talking about a caster. If you are talking about Oka weapon/ammo gifts, you are not talking about a caster. If you are talking about UC apts, you are not talking about a caster (transmuter maybe, but not a caster).

Trolls do not support a caster playstyle, unless you transition into it late-game. They can, however, hybridize.

This moon troll proposal, however, could possibly support an early caster playstyle, with the main killdudes being spells.

[njvack]

I like the emphasis you add on a difference of 1 and 2, then prompt disregards the difference of 6 in spellcasting, its almost like you dont know what having magic pool is.

I dunno. I've played troll casters where I killed lots of things with spells, and ogre casters where I killed lots of things with spells. Trolls felt better, generally. That's basically what I meant by "TrEE is pretty good at casting earth spells."

It could just be that I'm ogreing wrong, but the early game in particular feels really challenging -- defenses are terrible, melee damage is underwhelming, and it's really hard to get the starting book online. Especially when it feels like the sane thing to do is grab a weapon and train M+F instead of magic.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

ydeve: so then standard caster = "blaster caster"; I believe the latter is clearer and should be used if it is meant.

[duvessa]

Do you really believe a TrNe is gonna do better than a OgNe?

Fuck yes I do.

Of course you do, i should have been more specific there, that was my bad, but i could just be like you instead and say that i meant a no melee Ne.

I am certain that no melee TrNe is better than no melee OgNe, and no melee no missiles TrNe is better than no melee no missiles OgNe.

[ydeve]

ydeve: so then standard caster = "blaster caster"; I believe the latter is clearer and should be used if it is meant.

What other way have you heard the term used? I think the latter isn't any clearer than the former, but it definitely is more awkward to say.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

on the contrary, the latter rhymes, is snappy, and rolls of the tongue, and mentions "blasting" i.e. conjurations and conjuration-like damaging spells, and it's not really "standard" (especially for Crawl) so much as archetypal or stereotypical.

[duvessa]

ydeve: so then standard caster = "blaster caster"; I believe the latter is clearer and should be used if it is meant.

What other way have you heard the term used?

To me, "casting" means "casting spells", not "avoiding melee and missiles"

[ydeve]

ydeve: so then standard caster = "blaster caster"; I believe the latter is clearer and should be used if it is meant.

What other way have you heard the term used?

To me, "casting" means "casting spells", not "avoiding melee and missiles"

Then why do people say "caster" in contrast to "melee" or "ranged," if they mean anyone who casts spells instead of killdudes = spells?

[duvessa]

I don't say that

[HardboiledGargoyle]

This very much belongs in Advice because it answers which race makes better casters. Yiuf dropped in to make 1 post and got ignored.

[radinms]

Tr have a good earth aptitude!

  Code:

   Skills:
 + Level 15.3 Fighting
 - Level 1.5 Dodging
 - Level 1.1 Stealth
 - Level 12.0 Shields
 - Level 13.0 Spellcasting
 O Level 27 Conjurations
 - Level 5.2 Transmutations
 O Level 27 Earth Magic


You had 9 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
b - Stoneskin             Trmt/Erth      #######.     0%          2    None
c - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           ########..   0%          5    None
d - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      ########..   0%          6    None
e - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ###.......   12%         3    None
f - Shatter               Erth           ########..   2%          9    None
g - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ###...       6%          2    None
h - Statue Form           Trmt/Erth      #######..    1%          6    None
i - Lehudib's Crystal Sp  Conj/Erth      ########..   1%          8    None
j - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ###.....     6%          2    None


http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue/dam ... 141347.txt

[archaeo]

This very much belongs in Advice because it answers which race makes better casters. Yiuf dropped in to make 1 post and got ignored.

Nah, if I put it in advice I would've had to remove pubby's post, which is easily the most important post in this thread.

[TehDruid]

Wow, finally, a Naruto themed topic, the Tavern is going places!

[ydeve]

Is that what pubby's post is about? Naruto? I looked at it, saw what wasn't just a big wall of text but an incomprehensible wall of text, and skipped it.