Remove identify
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Slime Squisher
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Re: Remove identify
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Re: Remove identify
Pandemonium Purger
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Re: Remove identify
kroki wrote:having all potions identified from the start would make early game much less dangerous. how about remove identify and all items EXCEPT potions remain identified?
No way. I do not want to quaff ID !mute. Potions are what you use ID on anyway, so this wouldn't make sense.
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: Remove identify
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Barkeep
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Re: Remove identify
WingedEspeon wrote:kroki wrote:having all potions identified from the start would make early game much less dangerous. how about remove identify and all items EXCEPT potions remain identified?
No way. I do not want to quaff ID !mute. Potions are what you use ID on anyway, so this wouldn't make sense.
This is almost certainly not how a game without ID would work.
Currently, the ID minigame mostly denies you access to items you have in your inventory. Of course, you can still use them, but it's like using a wand of random effects, and you're rolling the dice when you do so (unless you've read up on the spoilers and know things like "the biggest stack of pots on D:3 is probably curing" and the like). If ID was removed, you'd probably also cut the average number of items that generate before temple.
Personally, I'd have everything auto ID'd, but keep the scroll around for wand charges and artefact properties (which don't work unless you ID the item), both of which I kind of like. Keeping the scroll around for just those uses seems kind of crazy, though, so it might be best to dispense with it altogether.
I don't think this is an idea likely to make it into the game.
Re: Remove identify
at DCSS, you can read ?identify without thinking ,and can use that item withoout thinking.
there isn't any interesting strategy in identify at DCSS.
Re: Remove identify
Cocytus Succeeder
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Re: Remove identify
(ok axes suck but an enchanted with a good ego battleaxe on D:3 is worth enough).
Tartarus Sorceror
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Re: Remove identify
Abyss Ambulator
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Re: Remove identify
This buffs Ash, who retains her ID-abilities. Who cares about mummies, seriously.
Use-ID on wearables or wieldables has the added benefit of pushing the player into the new maluses.
Remove remove-curse as well (give Ash an active ability set for this mechanic) and make dropping a cursed item experience based like draining.
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Re: Remove identify
Vestibule Violator
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Re: Remove identify
archaeo wrote:Currently, the ID minigame mostly denies you access to items you have in your inventory. Of course, you can still use them, but it's like using a wand of random effects, and you're rolling the dice when you do so (unless you've read up on the spoilers and know things like "the biggest stack of pots on D:3 is probably curing" and the like). If ID was removed, you'd probably also cut the average number of items that generate before temple.
Personally, I'd have everything auto ID'd, but keep the scroll around for wand charges and artefact properties (which don't work unless you ID the item), both of which I kind of like. Keeping the scroll around for just those uses seems kind of crazy, though, so it might be best to dispense with it altogether.
I don't think this is an idea likely to make it into the game.
I kind of like your suggestion, but I did want to separate this from the spoiler issue; I've never seen a non-code drop frequency list for crawl, and it still becomes painfully obvious that curing is quite common in the early dungeon, and that beneficial mutation is rare. I don't think spoilers are very relevant to this topic.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: Remove identify
a hypothetical "wear/wield-ID only" situation would be painful
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Re: Remove identify
Barkeep
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Re: Remove identify
byrel wrote:I kind of like your suggestion, but I did want to separate this from the spoiler issue; I've never seen a non-code drop frequency list for crawl, and it still becomes painfully obvious that curing is quite common in the early dungeon, and that beneficial mutation is rare. I don't think spoilers are very relevant to this topic.
I don't know, I've read enough r/dcss and DCA to know that the ID minigame isn't obvious to every player when they get started. Unfortunately, it's a bit of a worst-of-both-worlds thing; Crawl's ID minigame isn't intuitively obvious, as each item category has its own expectations w/r/t using ?ID, but it's also so simple that after you've been spoiled/gained experience it leads to pretty formulaic gameplay.
Sar wrote:one thing I like about id scrolls is that in lategame I can just quickly ID rings/armours without wasting turns putting them on, removing curses, dropping them etc.
a hypothetical "wear/wield-ID only" situation would be painful
Yeah, simply removing ?ID without making any other changes would be extremely unpleasant. You could rebalance the game around that, but it seems like a lot of work to just create a more unpleasant Crawl experience in general, I think.
kuniqs wrote:I like the ID minigame. It's like opening a present for Christmas!
That might be a fair comparison, if Christmas was every night. Identifying items is a chore you have to do in every game, and it's a chore that plays out the same way every time. It's also a chore that's hard to distinguish from a game where players just don't get items they can't ID yet and instead start with a deck of cards.
Of course, I again feel like I should acknowledge I don't expect mine to be a majority opinion; lots of people think IDing items is a foundational element of a roguelike, and that if the problems I'm talking about are true, we should be trying to make the ID game more fun, not remove it.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Re: Remove identify
Siegurt wrote:To often it is like this though:
Dude, it could be a wooden tricycle, i already saw that happen.
Re: Remove identify
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Re: Remove identify
Re: Remove identify
Lair Larrikin
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Re: Remove identify
radinms wrote:any difference between a lot of unknown items, ?identify and a lot of known items and no ?identify?
Bad items and mediocre items do not have a reason to exist.
Nobody is going to pick up any weaker version of their current weapon or armour unless it has a good/different ego if everything is already identified.
Nobody is going to pick up ring of AC -5 (cursed or not). Ever. No I don't even think a D:2 ash worshiper with no other jewelry and as many curse/remove curse scrolls as they like will equip that ring of AC -5.
Randart generation would probably also need to change.
Upside: we can cut out the 90,000 generically generated items that drop and pile up in the dungeon that you never use because they simply don't need to ever show up in a list of items you might want to pick up.
Downside: Curses, mediocre, and 'bad' items lose their place, which makes the early game contain far less decisions about equipment and item management.
With lots of identify and lots of unknown items, you do SOME thinking about what items you want to check (and risk taking a negative result if you don't want to burn an ID scroll, or can't burn an ID scroll because it is early).
Re: Remove identify
there are a lot of ?identify and ?remove curse.
Abyss Ambulator
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Re: Remove identify
ZipZipskins wrote:Mmmmm yeah wasting potions of haste, delicious
It's one potion of haste, not potions of haste, and if that makes a big difference to you, you need to up your game. As it is, I clearly stated that devs could up early D loading rates for potions to make up for it.
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Re: Remove identify
archaeo wrote:
Currently, the ID minigame mostly denies you access to items you have in your inventory. Of course, you can still use them, but it's like using a wand of random effects, and you're rolling the dice when you do so (unless you've read up on the spoilers and know things like "the biggest stack of pots on D:3 is probably curing" and the like).
You might as well have said it's also, a minigame that affects new players much, much worse than experienced players. Potions of curing in particular are so common that most slightly experienced players will at least have good reason to expect that a large stack might be those. Though it's not perfect.
While I suppose one might argue that most everything hassles newer players more, this one is a pretty drastic example. Still... More familiarity with the potion list (whether through rereading Wiki or through playing to around Lair a few times) does make the potion id gamble generally less onerous.
To me, the most frustrating thing about ID is it often blocks ready use of freshly discovered weapons (for fear of Contam, Drain on remove, yes Distortion even as I don't usually like to be locked into a single main hand item).
If there were more ID scrolls or less ID-ing going on, then I'd be quite happy to use ID to make better tactical use of Decks. As it is, I nearly always random draw them and blow through them too quick - unless playing Nemelex or a Deck of Wonders, for example. Or I'm carrying them around in mid game never really knowing where the useful cards are, and being too shy about using them anyway!
As things are, I'm happy not to scroll-ID the type of wand, but in contrast to the mess with Decks? It's still really useful for me to know the number of charges (you don't even gain knowledge of that upon recharging an "empty" wand? ugh!) and generally, to have lots of ID for picking up which white items have that particular bonus/resistance etc. you're missing.
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Re: Remove identify
daggaz wrote:It's one potion of haste, not potions of haste, and if that makes a big difference to you, you need to up your game. As it is, I clearly stated that devs could up early D loading rates for potions to make up for it.
last time I checked, one potion of haste each game across many games is "wasting potions of haste", because that's how numbers work
Does it make a big difference to me? No, I'm not good enough for my games that I was going to lose anyway to be reversed by a consumable, so maybe I do need to "up my game". But as an aside, I don't think that the current state of ID is even awful. I don't mind it whatsoever. If it were to be removed or changed, that's also cool, but I don't think I'd prefer a system where I chug a potion to see what it does, or for that matter that requires me to try things on or use them before they're IDed in the late game.
tl;dr: I don't actually have a strong opinion about ID one way or the other but I guess some people really do?
Pandemonium Purger
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Re: Remove identify
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Slime Squisher
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Re: Remove identify
*horselaugh*
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Re: Remove identify
- when to use-id items.
Earlier means more risk of losing a good item; later means less knowledge in dire spots. I hope this is non-trivial: do people think that use-identifying items right away (i.e. when you pick up an unknown item) is best? For some category of items? I am sure that waiting too long is bad. So ideally, the optimal solution is not clear, and hopefully depends on circumstances. (For example, the more unknown stacks you have, the better is the statistical approach.) - what to scroll-id.
I know that prevailing concensus is to scroll-id potions, both to catch emergency options, and to avoid strategic loss (quaff-identifying !CureMutation !Mutation). I hope it's not always that trivial: for example, I have championed the wand charge identification rule, so that now wands are also meaningful ?Identify targets. In my games, I have identified early wands (draining, cold etc.), but obviously I am biased in this regard.
For example, what if ?Identify identified itself when picked up (as the only scroll to do so)? Would that influence your identification approach?
What if there was a guaranteed scrolls-or-potions shop on D:6-9? Would that have an impact on your id pattern?
[1] Forgotten footnote: I am also interested in reports when you think your id-minigame is scripted. And how your algorithm works.
Lair Larrikin
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Re: Remove identify
Having an easy early game, I hold out till I have two stacks of scrolls standing out (Identify & Remove Curse), I then proceed to use all my Id scrolls until I know Heal/Cure/Teleport/Blink. After that I gradually continue to use all my id scrolls until I know all my potions AND scrolls. I'll also use them on a Wand of Teleport/Heal/Haste.
I always use-id equipment, cause I got plenty of remove curse scrolls.
Identify could be made more interesting, but I would "fix" the curse mechanic first. It is utterly trivial. Make the "remove curse" scrolls a lot more rare, but make curses wear out with XP gain.
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Abyss Ambulator
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Re: Remove identify
1. Wands are the same as now.
2. Potions and jewelry are still unidentified and revealed on wear/use/scrolled.
3. Scrolls are now identified on pickup, but weaker or more uncontrollable. !Understanding brings their effects up to current levels.
4. Weapons now have their +x hidden until a scroll is used or until they have been wielded for a while (which I believe used to be the case in the past). Their brand is auto-IDd but not their curse status.
5. Artefact properties are hidden until scrolled.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: Remove identify
How I imagine this would work in DCSS: rather than being strictly level based, because there's no level requirement to wear equipment in DCSS, I'd make it based on carry time. Spend 1000 turns with a potion and it ID's, spend 1500 with this ring, it ID's. Numbers would be randomized I assume, and not fixed per type. Haste might take more time to ID than curing, eg haste takes 2000-3000 turns, and curing takes 500-1000. Ego equipment might ID within 2000 turns but randart armor might take 5000. Scrolls of identify still exist so that you can ID that possibly amazing randart ring right away, but they're limited so that you can't ID all items right away. I'm not terribly sure where wear-IDing would fall in this system - in torchlight you can't equip something unless it is ID'ed first, and I'd be inclined to go that way in DCSS too. If wear IDing is allowed, then scrolls should be more rare as well.
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Vaults Vanquisher
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Re: Remove identify
I'm not super-experienced, though I've won a few games. My general strategy:
Equip-id most items early on. I stop doing this for amulets if I've already found a decent amulet so that I don't wind up with harm or faith (assuming I don't want faith.) I sometimes also avoid weapons found on the ground really early if I'm not sure if I have a remove curse scroll yet, since they have an annoying tendency to be negatively enchanted and cursed.
Hold on to scrolls until roughly D:5. If I have one stack that's particularly large (and hence very likely !id), I might read it sooner to start identifying some potions. If I do get a nasty cursed item (like amulet of inaccuracy or *Tele ring), I might read-id earlier in hopes of removing the curse. I will also sometimes read-id earlier if there is a timed portal really early, to see if I get mapping. By D:6, I just read-id everything and will read-id all new scrolls onward from that point. Might be wasteful, but better to know what I have and read-id is generally pretty safe.
I generally don't quaff-id unless it's really early and it's an emergency (i.e. let's play hope-I-find-curing-before-adder's-poison-kills-me.)
When I !id, I target potions first, starting with the smallest stacks (always with a glimmer of hope that it might be !experience.) I generally assume the largest stack is !curing, though I'll still !id it if it's the last stack.
I'll sometimes !id a wand that I think I'll want to use a lot and certainly will !id the key wands (Tele, Haste, HW, Invis [situational]), though often I put that off until after all my potions are known; they get a higher priority if I don't already have a scroll/potion form of Tele/Haste/HW/Invis to use prior to having the wands identified. I don't usually !id the damage-dealing wands since if I'm using them much, I probably have some Evocations anyway, which means they'll id for free at some point, plus they usually spawn often enough that running out isn't a huge problem. I'll !id them if I have excess !id scrolls, though.
Later in the game I pretty much !id any equipment of interest, since equip-id is slow and !id is plentiful.
Lair Larrikin
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Re: Remove identify
Tomb Titivator
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Re: Remove identify
I think it would be more interesting if you could not scroll-identify wands, but zapping didn't waste charges either, because you wouldn't know how many charges you have left, if any, when you zap - it adds mystery to wand-play.
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Lair Larrikin
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Difficulty Mode Bits and Scroll O' Attuning
¶ instantly recognizable — type and whether accursed, not details e.g. stats on armor:
00000001 "wand"
00000010 "scroll"
00000100 "jewellery"
00001000 "armor"
00010000 "weapon"
00100000 "potion"
¶ will never be placed by dungeon–maker (floor or shops):
01000000 "dangerous_item"
10000000 "bad_item"
For the UI when beginning a new adventurer: First is a field for entering the binary or decimal sum of the bits; below that is listed each item which the player can select with a menu (like Get or Drop). The field and individual items each would update for every change to either.
Simplify the challenge of balancing between trial by use and conservation of an item resource. Rather than have people argue whether or not items should need their type discovered anew each play, let them decide.
With regards to the Scroll Of Identify, it would probably be better if it were renamed to a Scroll Of Attuning so as to better indicate the aspects of its function. The chance of finding them would need to be factored, obviously, by the possible number of uses which the difficulty mode provides.
As Ashenzari was originally developed to replace the deprecated Detect Monsters et al, this wouldn't change that aspect of the god much. One concern would be how this changes the utility of Remove Curse and its quota of the spawn chance (pardon my verbiage), but I'm working on some things for that.
Now, I haven't played NetHack much myself, but from what I understand the so–called ID minigame consists of an experimental process whereby the player examines effects and alterations caused by Items and then specifically or typically labels those items. That is what most of you mean when you describe the ID procedure in DCSS as “broken” and such, yes?
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Re: Remove identify
Crawl, on the other hand, is more streamlined and tactical. Instadeath is viewed as cheap and unfair. Binary resistances are dismissed as uninteresting (which they are from a tactical perspective). Anything that is tedious and does not contribute to a tactical challenge is cut out. The way Nethack does ID just does not fit into Crawl. It's completely out of place and does not contribute to what's good about the game. Crawl is not a game about exploring, raiding, stockpiling and crafting your loot. In some sense it's more like DoomRL than Nethack and does not need ID.
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Re: Remove identify
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Re: Remove identify
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