Kronepihali, tormentor of souls


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Spider Stomper

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Post Sunday, 10th January 2016, 22:10

Kronepihali, tormentor of souls

Currently the game has two necromancy gods: one for spellcasters, one not. Why there's a god as a way to do necromancy without knowing necromancy I don't know, but the other one seems particularly substandard -- why have a god to give just necromantic spellbooks and protect against just necromantic side effects when there's Sif Muna who does it for all? Necromancy is a really *incomplete* kind of magic, not good against everything, so these partial boons aren't all the useful. I want to replace that one.

Besides, I'm thinking of some atmospherics here. :)

Kronepihali is a fearsome god of the lower planes, charged with tormenting the souls of the dying until they find some refuge in faith or are entirely obliterated. He recruits the wicked to reveal his glory within the world of the living; those that please him go on to serve in special demonic cadre in the afterlife. He is pleased by the use of weapons and spells that inflict pain and torment, and the deaths of living and holy beings.

As the embodiments of a powerful evil force, followers of Kronepihali are immune to haloes and extinguish holy fire as they come into contact with it.

Those favored by Kronepihali receive the ability to Embalm Corpse, which protects the body of a slain creature from decay for a small cost in piety. The bodies remain unchanged in all other regards, and may be used in the same way as fresh corpses.

Well-favored initiates are able to view the terrain and creatures in a one square radius surrounding each of their undead thralls. As the skeletons they control wear down to a trembling pile of agonized rubble, followers remain able to view the creatures and effects at the square of the creatures' final uneasy rest.

At a moderate cost in piety, followers may Distill Soul from a corpse, consuming its spiritual essence to receive the benefit of a potion of magic.

At a high cost in piety, particularly avid followers may Extract Soul from a living opponent with less than 25% of its original hit points, killing it in the process and gaining an opportunity to learn any spell it can cast. The spell becomes memorized with a probability equal to its success rate in casting. Failure to memorize the spell causes side effects in proportion to the danger rating of the spell, and include a temporary drain of intelligence or skills, rotting, slow, confusion, or paralyze effects.

Worshippers are forbidden the use of holy weapons and scrolls of holy word.

----
The last power is by far the most versatile - it is meant to replace bookspam gifts and give followers of this one god a chance to get at the ever-growing list of NPC-only spells. Honestly, I don't know why the game *has* NPC-only spells - a lot of them don't really seem that powerful - but the point of these gods is to make gameplay more varied and interesting, so I say go for it. Distill Soul is a (rather poor) competitor for Sif Muna's a-a mainstay; if you wanted to turn it up you could say it makes an actual potion of magic to store for later, but I think that is too much. The skeleton effect is perhaps more amusing than useful, but in theory you could have spy eyes all over the level that way. I don't know if it can be implemented sanely, though. Ideally, the prohibition on holy weapons/holy word scrolls should not be a *rule* - they should simply cease to exist if your character touches them. (If you're looking for a replacement boon after you shoot down one of the others, making holy weapons disappear when they *hit* your character would be an idea)

Mod edit: moved to advice since the rest of the thread is primarily discussing the effectiveness of necromancy in general.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 10th January 2016, 23:14

Re: Kronepihali, tormentor of souls

Chicken wrote:Currently the game has two necromancy gods: one for spellcasters, one not. Why there's a god as a way to do necromancy without knowing necromancy I don't know, but the other one seems particularly substandard -- why have a god to give just necromantic spellbooks and protect against just necromantic side effects when there's Sif Muna who does it for all? Necromancy is a really *incomplete* kind of magic, not good against everything, so these partial boons aren't all the useful. I want to replace that one.

Kiku is one of the strongest gods and does not need a replacement. The book gifts and protection from necro miscasts are just one part of the whole Kiku experience.
DCSS: 79: ...{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCK
SpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE
{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAK
Bloat: 4: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa

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nago, Sar

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Post Monday, 11th January 2016, 00:24

Re: Kronepihali, tormentor of souls

Sprucery wrote:
Chicken wrote:Currently the game has two necromancy gods: one for spellcasters, one not. Why there's a god as a way to do necromancy without knowing necromancy I don't know, but the other one seems particularly substandard -- why have a god to give just necromantic spellbooks and protect against just necromantic side effects when there's Sif Muna who does it for all? Necromancy is a really *incomplete* kind of magic, not good against everything, so these partial boons aren't all the useful. I want to replace that one.

Kiku is one of the strongest gods and does not need a replacement. The book gifts and protection from necro miscasts are just one part of the whole Kiku experience.


Not just one part, they're not even the strongest parts. Request Corpses and the Pain brand are Kiku's best two abilities, in my opinion. Dismissing Kiku as "a god to give just necromantic spellbooks and protect against ncromantic side effects" is such a fundamental misunderstanding of what the god does that it honestly makes it hard for me to take the post seriously at all.

As for the actual god proposal: Embalm Corpse sounds extremely tedious to use, mostly useless, and just a worse version of request corpse most of the time it would be useful. Maybe if corpse carrying were still a thing, it could be good, but still extremely tedious. Vision around thralls might be useful, I'm not sure. Distill Soul is basically a better version of the old Sublimating Chunks, strong but not super interesting and necromancers already have regular sublimation.

Extract Soul is a neat ability, but seems ridiculously situational and has no particular synergy with necromancy.

Overall, this god seems way worse than Kiku outside of Extract Soul, which seems like it might be better for a different god than a necromancy one intended to replace Kiku. You're claiming Kiku is weak because Necromancy is situational, then proposing a god that is vastly more limited and situational than Kiku's abilities.

EDIT: Thinking about it more, most enemy spells are either ones players can already get access to or ones that players don't get for a reason. So it would mostly just mean worshippers of Kronepihali get to run around knowing one spell they wouldn't nromally have the skill to cast, which both doesn't sound incredibly interesting and would probably make more sense on Sif if it were to get added.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Monday, 11th January 2016, 07:26

Re: Kronepihali, tormentor of souls

I always considered kiku to be one of the gods with the least issues. Necromancy as it exists now is actually really neat, and even before the necromancy overhaul I still considered Kiku to be a fun god to play with. Much of that is subjective, but if I'm not mistaken, I think kiku is the least talked about god in regards to making improvements to him aside from maybe Lucy and Jiyva(who are different as a result of being non-pantheon gods that don't have to follow the same rules as other gods).

With all that aside, I like where you are going with this god idea in regards to embalming corpses in order to carry them around and use for abilities. I think that can work if you made some changes to it(which i will get to in a second). However, all the abilities for the god aside from that seem problematic for reasons that have already been explained I think, but I will evaluate more on it if you really want me to.

Here is my suggestion:

First of all, I would remove the tediousness of having to restrict inventory space and make embalmed corpses an object that stacks and only takes up 1 slot. Second, have the bodies be embalmed randomly upon killing(low HD monsters become less likely at higher levels) in order to limit the player in some way without requiring that they manage their piety and manually choose corpses to use. Lastly, come up with some abilities the god can use that do not make use of piety but instead make use of these embalmed corpses. Here are some ideas I had when I first read this part of the post:

Bodies are randomly embalmed upon death, but the chances are very low. The chances of embalming a body increase with invocations since the embalming process starts by sealing the soul of the monster right before it is released from death then draining it of all that makes it living aside from its ability to feel pain.

Fear of death: Having been given a look into what could be in store for you if you allow yourself to succumb to death having now started following Kronepihali, you fear death greatly and will be unable to attack monsters when in danger of dying. If you are in critical condition, you will be unable to move closer to the enemy(eidolon style) but are able to run slightly faster than usual. This is an effect that is gained upon joining, his "downside" essentially.

Undead binding: In exchange for 3-6 of the corpses you have sealed the souls of through your god given powers, Kronopihali will give a number of his tormented playthings an opportunity to free themselves by killing the enemy and forcing them to take its places. Dozens of hands will reach up from the ground and restrain the target for a number of turns based on the corpses used(the more you have the more likely it is to be higher) and constrict them in the process. This is a smite targetted effect.

Glimpes of Suffering: In exchange for 6-9 of the corpses you have sealed the souls of through your god given powers, Kronepihali will give all monsters in LOS a glimpse into the horrors that await them if they fall victim to the same fate by forcing them to hear the screams of all his victims simaltaniously. This causes fear in all monsters in LOS with power based on the number of corpses used(the more you have the more likely it is to be higher). At max spellpower, all intelligent or living monsters will run away regardless of Magic resistance.

Wall of Souls:
In exchange for half of our corpses, you create a wall of souls equal to the number surrounding you. For each soul used this way, you will block an attack, until you are eventually out(the number is listed in purple and in parentheses beside your SH number). This can only be used while you are in possession of 10 or more corpses.

Seal Undead: In exchange for piety, you can attempt to seal an undead monster into an embalmed corpse. Invocations increases chance of success.

Seal of Kronepihali: You can seal your soul within your body temporarily just as you do to other monsters(this will cause exhaustion and cannot be used while exhausted). If another monster happens to kill you while under this effect, you will then be revived elsewhere on the level, but your "soul" will be missing and you will be excommunicated(and cannot ever re join) by Kronepihali for trying to cheat death, but he will allow you a second chance to complete your quest for the orb of due to your loyalty to his cause(although finishing the game will give a message saying Kronepihali steals the orb away from you right before you exit the dungeon just to see you suffer, but you still "win"). You also can no longer join another god, attempting to join another god(including Kronepihali) you will instead get the message "Kronepihali: Your soul is mine, you no longer have the right to worship a god."
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Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 11th January 2016, 07:41

Re: Kronepihali, tormentor of souls

Chicken wrote:Necromancy is a really *incomplete* kind of magic, not good against everything

IME instant full HP restore and literal invincibility are good against a lot of things

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archaeo, WingedEspeon

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Post Monday, 11th January 2016, 07:48

Re: Kronepihali, tormentor of souls

Sar wrote:
Chicken wrote:Necromancy is a really *incomplete* kind of magic, not good against everything

IME instant full HP restore and literal invincibility are good against a lot of things


Not to mention that you can count on one hand the enemies that can't reliably killed with an army of simulacrums, and Kiku provides the tools to have an army of simulacrums on demand.

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Post Tuesday, 12th January 2016, 04:43

Re: Kronepihali, tormentor of souls

I've played many games with kiku. I remember having games where simulacrum and animate dead weren't given. I'm fairly certain that neither of them are guaranteed, and it would be nice if you could get one of them for sure. It makes corpse gift much less useful. In those couple of situations I relied on corpse rot, which is guaranteed for some reason. Kiku is already bonkers strong though, probably doesn't need a buff.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 12th January 2016, 15:00

Re: Kronepihali, tormentor of souls

OK, it's obvious from this that I don't know *anything* about playing necromancy, despite having had some characters that were very skilled at it. As for Kiku, I'm more mystified. Seems like there are pain weapons lying around all over the place, but since they don't hurt everything, you can't use them as more than an alt.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 12th January 2016, 15:23

Re: Kronepihali, tormentor of souls

Pain works absolutely fine as a "main" weapon, not optimal for postend obviously (but if you're attached it to a sufficiently good base weapon it's often enough), but in 3 runes it's good. The optimal way is to pain something like a spear or a whip and have an amazing low-skill early/midgame weapon that you later supplement with a better one for hitting immunes, but when I play Kiku I will often pain something like a great mace or a battleaxe and that kills immunes just fine by virtue of just having an amazing base damage. Think about it like that: vorpal brand is only something like 15% damage, but versus anything. Pain is more limited, but the amount of damage it adds is ridiculously better.

And if we're talking about postend, there are very little things there that Simulacrum and corpse drop won't be able to handle.

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