Remove Permanent Allies

[bcadren]

I had this thought while half asleep; so I'm not sure how strongly I stand by it; but it's a complete thought so I'm bringing it up for real discussion.

Core Statement: Remove Permanent Allies; they create a lot more trouble (to the player) than they fix. Balance by tedium (making it difficult to keep your allies with you with multiple stairs, etc.) isn't good balance. Trying to keep allies alive at the cost of your own HP is a generally bad strategy that permanent ally gods tend to foster.

Actual Changes:

• Fedhas Madash: Piety Cost of Evolution (Wandering Mushroom) is decreased. Mushrooms cannot use stairs.
• Yredelemnul: No more Yredelemnul Gifts. Piety gain rate is increased slightly; player gets access to a Summon Undead invocation that mass summons higher undead for medium piety cost at *****. Quality of Undead (Flying Skulls, Necrophages and Wights -> Bone Dragons, Profane Servitors and Revenants) depends on Invocations skill. Summoned undead act like normal Yred zombies (cannot leave spawn floor; never abjure; act outside LoS).
• Beogh: No more permanent Orcs. Enemy orcs have a chance to go Neutral instead of allied. You can mass summon mighted orcs for medium piety cost at ****. Orc quality and equipment quality depend on invocations. Orc summon numbers are higher than any other summon. At max Invo [3-6 Warlords; 2-4 High Priests; 2-4 Sorcerers; 6-12 Knights; 10-15 Warriors.] At low ~5-10 Invo [0-1 Knights; 2-4 Warriors; 2-4 Priests; 2-4 Wizards; 5-10 Plain Orcs]. at 0 invo [0-1 Warriors; 0-2 Priests; 0-2 Wizards; 3-6 Plain Orcs]. Actual Rolls would be rolling Strongest to weakest and stopping when the cap (25) is full; higher invo is higher chance of better orcs.
• Nemelex Xobeh: Mercenary Card is removed.
• Xom: No Change. Xom being the exception is fine.

[dpeg]

You are too late, zombies decay now. All the others permanent allies are through gods, there may be changes, but there's no problem here.

Also thanks for completely changing a god like Beogh on a four line whim.

[duvessa]

Also thanks for completely changing a god like Beogh on a four line whim.

someone suggesting a change to the game in GDD? what an unprecedented attack on the devteam
it's a bcadren post so it'll be in cyc by tomorrow anyway, chill

[bcadren]

Also thanks for completely changing a god like Beogh on a four line whim.

I'm tired of people defending Beogh. It's just about the worst god in the game and people act like it's amazing. It was one of the first gods; it's kinda grandfathered in; but it's not good.

• People say it's fine that this god becomes weaker later and borderline useless in extended. BUT the only other gods with similar powerful early; useless late curves (Yred, Fedhas, Gozag) have REASONABLE wrath to leave; where as Beogh's is like a combo of Okawaru's and Vehumet's (Two -much- better gods) for some reason. Particularly the high damage smiting is unreasonable for wrath.
• Permanent allies cannot follow you through portals. I mean it's one thing if a god is -weaker- in extended; but suddenly virtually godless because the majority of your power was in permanent allies and you were abyssed or willingly walked into Pan. Seriously? It even forms a problem with your character being much weaker for Ice Caves and similar portals in early game.
• Just more in general; trying to keep permanent allies safe is tedious and often a suicidal way of playing that Beogh currently heavily incentivizes.

Beogh's one decent ability is Smiting; but a good way of dealing with Nexoqecs is really not enough to save a god. Walk of water lets you fly without flying which is of some help in Swamp/Shoals, Cocytus...and some rare vaults; but not that great. The orc gifts just aren't that powerful and are supposed to be the focus of the god. Switching to just a summon is the easier way of fixing it; though making permanent allies -better- could work. Starting by letting them follow you through portals and keeping track of ones lost in the Abyss so you can recall them back outside; it's just that's so much more trouble.

[dpeg]

I'm tired of people defending Beogh. It's just about the worst god in the game

Subjective opinion, irrelevant to the discourse.

It was one of the first gods

Wrong. It was not even the first god added in DCSS.
This is also nothing about power (early, late or extended): we could make Beogh as strong as we wanted to. This is unrelated to the topic.

Beogh is a niche god (only one species allowed) with a niche playing style. If that's not your piece of cake, no problems. Nobody will change an otherwise working god to suit your extended game fantasies. Moreover, Beogh is seeing changes (the latest one about one gift per named follower).

[bcadren]

Beogh is a niche god (only one species allowed) with a niche playing style.

I've had god proposals rejected for that reason. I think you've even said "no room for Niche gods, have to give the god general appeal." If Beogh was proposed now; or even made into an experimental patch now instead of being an older god; it would be rejected for being too "niche", too weak and promoting a bad playing style.

Side Note: I still don't see how we have both Yred and Beogh. The two are WAY more similar than any other pair of gods. (with Yred being the stronger one).

[kuniqs]

With maxed Invocations you can smite hell/pan lords to death. I don't see that as a weakness on part of Beogh.

[bcadren]

With maxed Invocations you can smite hell/pan lords to death. I don't see that as a weakness on part of Beogh.

Numbers-wise? Average of 40 damage a smite means 9 (Gloorx Vloq [350 HP])-18 (Antaeus [700 HP]) smites/lord (depending on the one [average]) at a total piety cost of 27-54 on a god that's piety gain isn't particularly fast. *shrug* Saying it's strong because it can kill a hell lord for that much piety is kind of a weak argument. For that matter; you could straight run out of piety trying to do this on a Hell Lord with Healing (Lom Lobon, Ereshkigal); if they didn't kill you first. If you want to kill a hell lord with Invocations; you'd be better off with TSO (faster piety gain; Angels and Cleansing Flame), Lugonu (Corrupt), Nemelex (Triple Draw from Destruction), Trog (BiA) or Fedhas (Oklobs). Being able to kill a hell lord in 9-18 turns isn't really much of a brag though; I've done one turn twice (confusion needle; poor thing drowned in lava [Cerebov]) and Holy Wrath Dagger stab (one hit kill) Dithmenos; shadow step [Antaeus].

[MrRokkomies]

Make permanent allies work like pokemon. You summon them temporarily, but they maintain their experience, health and equipment permanently. If you evoke/invoke them again, they get unsummoned. If they die, you loose them (permanently?). They regenerate over time, while stored and gather experience from fights.

(Then ad evolution stages and breeding programs.)

[Sprucery]

Heh, Beogh was added in 0.3.0 (10/2007). To me it's one of the new gods... (even Lugonu is older, and Lugonu is new too).

e: oops, sorry, didn't mean to contribute to Yiufing...

[archaeo]

Yiuf'ing, but not because "it's a bcadren post," duvessa, this was a real team effort.

[beogh]

If you remove permanent allies from Beogh, I'm quitting DCSS

[tabstorm]

Who cares about gods giving permanent allies? You aren't forcred to play Beogh or Yred if you don't like it - some people actually do enjoy these playstyles. Why should Beogh/Yred's defining features be removed just to preserve the fun of an imaginary player?

It's not like the "tedium" of Beogh/Yred is forcibly inflicted upon the player every game in the same way that (for instance) eating is.

[Greyr]

You aren't forcred to play Beogh or Yred if you don't like it - some people actually do enjoy these playstyles.

This argument has never held any water when discussing Crawl design.

[Tiktacy]

Also thanks for completely changing a god like Beogh on a four line whim.

For what its worth, I thought you were being serious. I liked his suggestion, it was an extremely simple(and maybe even effective) fix for an otherwise broken laughing stock of the crawl pantheon.

Also thanks for completely changing a god like Beogh on a four line whim.

someone suggesting a change to the game in GDD? what an unprecedented attack on the devteam.

This made me spit out my cherios I was laughing so hard.

Also thanks for completely changing a god like Beogh on a four line whim.

I'm tired of people defending Beogh. It's just about the worst god in the game and people act like it's amazing. It was one of the first gods; it's kinda grandfathered in; but it's not good.

• People say it's fine that this god becomes weaker later and borderline useless in extended. BUT the only other gods with similar powerful early; useless late curves (Yred, Fedhas, Gozag) have REASONABLE wrath to leave; where as Beogh's is like a combo of Okawaru's and Vehumet's (Two -much- better gods) for some reason. Particularly the high damage smiting is unreasonable for wrath.
• Permanent allies cannot follow you through portals. I mean it's one thing if a god is -weaker- in extended; but suddenly virtually godless because the majority of your power was in permanent allies and you were abyssed or willingly walked into Pan. Seriously? It even forms a problem with your character being much weaker for Ice Caves and similar portals in early game.
• Just more in general; trying to keep permanent allies safe is tedious and often a suicidal way of playing that Beogh currently heavily incentivizes.

Beogh's one decent ability is Smiting; but a good way of dealing with Nexoqecs is really not enough to save a god. Walk of water lets you fly without flying which is of some help in Swamp/Shoals, Cocytus...and some rare vaults; but not that great. The orc gifts just aren't that powerful and are supposed to be the focus of the god. Switching to just a summon is the easier way of fixing it; though making permanent allies -better- could work. Starting by letting them follow you through portals and keeping track of ones lost in the Abyss so you can recall them back outside; it's just that's so much more trouble.

If I were you, I would try making another post in GDD specifically about reworking beogh because you seem to be explaining the issues with him a lot better than other people have. Try making multiple suggestions for ways to fix him and see how it works out. Anything involving a change to beogh I would support, if beogh was to be suggested in its entirety now instead of back then the thread would have been yuifed in an instant.

[tabstorm]

You aren't forcred to play Beogh or Yred if you don't like it - some people actually do enjoy these playstyles.

This argument has never held any water when discussing Crawl design.

A god that you can choose to use or not use (and some people enjoy) is very different from something like item destruction that you couldn't opt out of very easily. I don't think many people enjoyed potion throwing or dropping. The assumption that ally management is tedious seems unfounded since some people do, in fact, seem to like it.

If I was making a roguelike I probably wouldn't feature it because 1. I don't like ally management and 2. I'd be too lazy to code the AI. But, I wouldn't want to stop people from playing in this way because I'm concerned about an imaginary player having fun in the way I intended.

[Greyr]

You aren't forcred to play Beogh or Yred if you don't like it - some people actually do enjoy these playstyles.

This argument has never held any water when discussing Crawl design.

A god that you can choose to use or not use (and some people enjoy) is very different from something like item destruction that you couldn't opt out of very easily. I don't think many people enjoyed potion throwing or dropping. The assumption that ally management is tedious seems unfounded since some people do, in fact, seem to like it.

If I was making a roguelike I probably wouldn't feature it because 1. I don't like ally management and 2. I'd be too lazy to code the AI. But, I wouldn't want to stop people from playing in this way because I'm concerned about an imaginary player having fun in the way I intended.

I understand what you mean, but when I posted I was thinking of one of the most famously contentious dev decisions: removing Mountain Dwarves. Maybe Mountain Dwarves aren't a great comparison to ally management, but I think that remove is more analogous than one of the core mechanics you cited. So again, the "you don't have to play what you don't like" argument historically just hasn't worked. Unfortunately.

kidding