HD and polymorph


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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 10th November 2015, 02:55

HD and polymorph

byrel mentioned this recently, though the stories are legion: Some monsters have really surprisingly high HD and polymorph into surprisingly nasty beasts -- Gastronok is probably the most "entertaining" example of this, although there are probably some other surprises out there.

This isn't a terrible thing if it's intentional, but it doesn't feel intentional to me ("haha enjoy your shrike in Lair" doesn't seem like a crawl joke) -- and additionally, it relies on knowing HD which isn't even hinted at as a mechanic anywhere I know about. You just need to polymorph monsters and see what turns into something really appalling.

It might make more sense if Crawl picked something nearby in XP value instead, as those values (IIRC) can be tweaked by hand and are at least a little closer to meaning "this about how dangerous someone thinks this monster is."

Thoughts?
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Post Tuesday, 10th November 2015, 14:13

Re: HD and polymorph

Since being spoiled is an issue, you could maybe add an extra page to the monster info window that lists what monsters it can polymorph to (if it's not magic immune). This way HD is still transparent to the player AFAIK.

That way you can at least polymorph while knowing the risks. If a player doesn't know what a shrike is that's another story though..
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Post Tuesday, 10th November 2015, 15:25

Re: HD and polymorph

bananaken wrote:Since being spoiled is an issue, you could maybe add an extra page to the monster info window that lists what monsters it can polymorph to (if it's not magic immune). This way HD is still transparent to the player AFAIK.


IIRC, polymorph can change HD up or down in fairly significant ways; it's just fairly uncommon. So you *can* get a huge range of monsters (and I think that's good) -- it's just that there are a few monsters that frequently do something unexpectedly nasty.
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Post Tuesday, 10th November 2015, 15:26

Re: HD and polymorph

Pretty sure the list of what something CAN polymorph into is too long to be useful in nearly all cases (plants being an exception).

XP values are automatically generated using a very complex algorithm (takes into account monster speed, HP, spells, etc.) There are several fudge factors in there though, which allow for some tweaking.

The trouble is that XP is actually not great right now either. Sure, it's fine for most monsters, and it averages out in the end as you kill a ton of monsters, but as soon as you start using it for tactical effects the error for individual monsters will become apparent. People generally won't expect that that orc warrior could become a boggart for instance. It would improve Gastronok dramatically, but he could still be a stone giant... Overall it's a better match for monster difficulty than HD, but still quite problematic.
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Post Tuesday, 10th November 2015, 17:20

Re: HD and polymorph

I agree, it wouldn't be perfect. But maybe it would be better? Generally, XP values are hinted at in-game in the nastiness warning, at least.

Turning Gastronok into an unarmed stone giant with no rocks and a silly hat sounds OK. Even a fire giant, honestly. Nasty monsters can poly into other nasty monsters. And orc warrior -> boggart would be kind of surprising maybe, but they're both HD 4 so that should be possible now.

I dunno. Implementation might be too complicated for an XP-based solution anyhow; it might make more sense to somehow special-case the handful of monsters who poly into crazy stuff.
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Post Tuesday, 10th November 2015, 17:54

Re: HD and polymorph

njvack wrote:
bananaken wrote:Since being spoiled is an issue, you could maybe add an extra page to the monster info window that lists what monsters it can polymorph to (if it's not magic immune). This way HD is still transparent to the player AFAIK.


IIRC, polymorph can change HD up or down in fairly significant ways; it's just fairly uncommon. So you *can* get a huge range of monsters (and I think that's good) -- it's just that there are a few monsters that frequently do something unexpectedly nasty.

byrel wrote:Pretty sure the list of what something CAN polymorph into is too long to be useful in nearly all cases (plants being an exception).

Given these problems, what I would do is the following:
  • Cap the range of monsters to a fixed value (like 10, for example). Maybe guarantee a minimum amount of choices that are above or below the monster's HD or XP.
  • Roll the list of polymorph choices for that monster based on HD, XP or whatever. Special case any uniques where you may want to remove (or even add!) nasty choices.
  • Display these choices on the monster description, ordered by HD or XP (e.g. This monster may polymorph into the following: )

When capping the range of monsters you'd probably want to balance readability with having "fun" or "interesting" choices, of course. I think it'd be a fun mini-game to play if you know the polymorph possibilities off the bat.

Also, this is purely hypothetical since I haven't done this, but a spoiled player could already get a lower and upper bound on possible HD rolls from polymorphing a monster and determine if they're worth the risk of polymorphing. The XP change would then make a hypothetical spoiled player look for lower and upper bound of XP values instead.

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Post Tuesday, 10th November 2015, 19:47

Re: HD and polymorph

bananaken wrote:Given these problems, what I would do is the following:
  • Cap the range of monsters to a fixed value (like 10, for example). Maybe guarantee a minimum amount of choices that are above or below the monster's HD or XP.
  • Roll the list of polymorph choices for that monster based on HD, XP or whatever. Special case any uniques where you may want to remove (or even add!) nasty choices.
  • Display these choices on the monster description, ordered by HD or XP (e.g. This monster may polymorph into the following: )

When capping the range of monsters you'd probably want to balance readability with having "fun" or "interesting" choices, of course. I think it'd be a fun mini-game to play if you know the polymorph possibilities off the bat.

Also, this is purely hypothetical since I haven't done this, but a spoiled player could already get a lower and upper bound on possible HD rolls from polymorphing a monster and determine if they're worth the risk of polymorphing. The XP change would then make a hypothetical spoiled player look for lower and upper bound of XP values instead.

I don't really think adding a polymorph minigame would be very good for the game. I think it makes more sense for polymorph to be an entirely opaque (but quite fair) mechanic.

Yeah, you can currently know that gastronok is a nasty polymorph if you spoil yourself, and I've done that before. I don't even have a problem with that being possible; the range of possible polymorphs makes spoiling useless except in the wildly unfair cases (boggarts, hydras, gastronok, etc.) Spoilers which are useless in practice are fine.

njvack wrote:I agree, it wouldn't be perfect. But maybe it would be better? Generally, XP values are hinted at in-game in the nastiness warning, at least.

I dunno. Implementation might be too complicated for an XP-based solution anyhow; it might make more sense to somehow special-case the handful of monsters who poly into crazy stuff.
I'm with you. XP is much better than HD because:
  • The design intent of experience is to mimic monster difficulty.
  • It currently does a much better job of representing monster difficulty than HD
  • HD is already a massively overloaded feature
XP isn't perfect, and should probably be tweaked (I keep meaning to go through and make a patch for a starting point there, but haven't got around to it) but it beats HD from both playability and design.
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Post Tuesday, 10th November 2015, 20:47

Re: HD and polymorph

byrel wrote:I don't really think adding a polymorph minigame would be very good for the game. I think it makes more sense for polymorph to be an entirely opaque (but quite fair) mechanic.

Yeah, you can currently know that gastronok is a nasty polymorph if you spoil yourself, and I've done that before. I don't even have a problem with that being possible; the range of possible polymorphs makes spoiling useless except in the wildly unfair cases (boggarts, hydras, gastronok, etc.) Spoilers which are useless in practice are fine.

That's the thing though, you're already playing the polymorph minigame when you zap a wand of polymorph, you just happen decide how much information you want to include in your decision making, including spoilers. I disagree that the range of possible polymorphs makes spoiling useless: if you find that you can't fight a monster and want to polymorph it, you could identify the enemies that you'd rather encounter vs the ones you don't and zap the monster if the odds are good enough for a monster you can fight. You can discourage this with a large enough range of monsters, but the idea behind it wouldn't change if the number of monsters was 10 or 100. In its current state, spoiling yourself on polymorph outcomes would make sense to me. In addition, I feel the other suggested changes wouldn't change this.

I think the problem with making polymorph a more "fair" mechanic is that the actual fairness is going to be mostly dependent on the context: the player's race/background, their build, their surroundings, etc. Due to how varied monsters are even within the same ballpark of HD and XP, I think it would always help to know what they can polymorph to.

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Post Tuesday, 10th November 2015, 20:55

Re: HD and polymorph

Is polymorph currently limited to just the wand? I think there's also a mass polymorph effect in a deck, but I'm not sure. What would be wrong with removing polymorph entirely? It seems overly complicated, and either turns a threatening monster into a trivial one or one that you are hopelessly lost against. Randomly. I don't use it, I don't think it's considered wise to use it (maybe there are some relatively safe cases?). I wouldn't consider it a core consumable, like heal wounds or blinking, that people rely on. Removing it shouldn't make the game noticeably harder (or easier, except in removing inventory clutter).

If it can be reformed into something worth keeping that's fine by me, but the current version doesn't seem all that necessary.
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Post Tuesday, 10th November 2015, 21:34

Re: HD and polymorph

tasonir wrote: I think there's also a mass polymorph effect in a deck, but I'm not sure.

Degeneration tries to polymorph all monsters in LOS into monsters with less HD.

e: spelling
Last edited by Sprucery on Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 06:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 01:21

Re: HD and polymorph

it's still a good wand to carry around just to force shapeshifters out of whatever they are turned into if you happen to not want to deal with it, i mean its really easy to spot a shapeshifters when you encounter, say, a shining eye in vaults.

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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 02:54

Re: HD and polymorph

I feel like every recommended use case for polymorph is extremely spoilery. It's all "these particular monsters are very dangerous for their HD so make good polymorph targets" and "you can use it to force shapeshifters into another form." Polymorphing anything but the handful of particular spoilery monsters that are much nastier than the average enemy in their HD (leardb recommend "killer bees, jellies, boggarts, harpies, electric eels, wasps, (very) ugly things, and well-equipped monsters (e.g. orc knights and hell knights)" or a shapeshifter in a dangerous form is generally recommended against.

That seems like a pretty bad state for a wand. I think you could make a legitimate case that Wand of Polymorph is one of the most spoilery items in the game if that's the correct advice. It's a fun item flavorwise and conceptual, but I feel like it definitely needs some reworking to make its use cases less spoilery.

I think the idea design of polymorph would be that you use it on monsters that are particularly dangerous to your character due to a particular trait, that other comparably-strong monsters do not have. At least, intuitively, I would think uses like polymorphing hydras if your character relies on non-flaming bladed weapons, polymorphing mutators if you have no rMut, or polymorphing fast enemies hoping to get something you can run away from would be reasonable, unspoilery things polymorph might be able to do in theory. The current use of wanting to turn well-armed enemies into ones that can't wield weapons or unarmed ones into enemies that rely on weapons is also good.

But the spoilery nonsense of "polymorph is good against enemies that are particularly weak or dangerous for their HD" is just silly.

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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 03:14

Re: HD and polymorph

Perhaps polymorph wands should become unambiguously good and always reduce monster hd. The only source of same- or up-HD polymorph would then be Xom, which is probably fine?

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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 03:50

Re: HD and polymorph

chequers wrote:Perhaps polymorph wands should become unambiguously good and always reduce monster hd. The only source of same- or up-HD polymorph would then be Xom, which is probably fine?


I mean, that wouldn't make the unambiguously good - you could still turn an HD 5 creature into a Boggart - but it would make unspoiled use of them less ill-advised overall, I guess.

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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 04:56

Re: HD and polymorph

chequers wrote:Perhaps polymorph wands should become unambiguously good and always reduce monster hd. The only source of same- or up-HD polymorph would then be Xom, which is probably fine?
you goddamn devs deleted minmay's account just so you could take credit for his ideas

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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 14:58

Re: HD and polymorph

The reason both the XP and HD methods remain unfair to unspoiled players is that they do not correlate well with depth, but which monsters begin to appear at which levels is precisely the information an unspoiled player gains through experience. So then, /Poly ought to work similarly to shadow creatures, turning the target into another random monster that would be created at the player's current depth. Uniques would always turn into normal monsters, with some sort of depth adjustment. To reduce predictability in the mid and late game it can not respect branch, so you could get say a Shoal monster in Elf.

The reason the current /Poly seems broken is that you can get a monster you'd never expect on your current level because of the vagaries of the HD data. Going by depth makes the wand but friendlier to spoiled and unspoiled players alike. Isn't the situation where you'd want to use /Poly one where the monster you are facing is one you're poorly equipped for, and you want to turn it into something that you're probably better equipped for? Having it work by depth is the only way I see to make the wand fulfill that purpose reliably. If you shoot it at a unique or as an unspoiled player at a monster you've never seen before, then you're gambling but you know you're gambling, and that 's fun. Gambling when you don't realize you're gambling, though, that's unfun.
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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 15:08

Re: HD and polymorph

Quazifuji wrote:I mean, that wouldn't make the unambiguously good - you could still turn an HD 5 creature into a Boggart

I've never gotten an early boggart -- do they always summon stuff from late D and Depths, or does it depend on where they are?

A quick look at mon-cast.cc makes me think they summon stuff appropriate to your current level, but I'm quite able to be wrong about the segment of code I'm looking at.
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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 15:51

Re: HD and polymorph

What if Polymorph just picked from the spawn tables for whatever level you used it on, rather than using HD/XP?

Only problems I see are:
A)Bands making this un-intuitive.
B)Encouraging players to lure monsters up stairs to polymorph them (this doesn't seem like a big deal? Monster would need to be in melee range. Maybe on something like Elf:1)
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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 16:38

Re: HD and polymorph

Why would bands make it un-intuitive? And I can't imagine luring something I wanted to poly upstairs, because I don't want to hang around with things I want to polymorph as a general rule.

It would make the range of possible creatures maybe less interesting (you would always, I think, get something that could use gear and spellcast in Elf?) but it would clear things up. Depth, as maniacjoe suggests, might work well too.

It might make polying uniques too good; you'd pretty much be guaranteed something way less powerful.

I keep coming back to "what's the problem to solve here" -- Gastronok -> Shrike is definitely problematic. Frederick -> shrike seems not. Hydra -> Fire Dragon... I'm not sure.
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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 16:46

Re: HD and polymorph

duvessa wrote:
chequers wrote:Perhaps polymorph wands should become unambiguously good and always reduce monster hd. The only source of same- or up-HD polymorph would then be Xom, which is probably fine?
you goddamn devs deleted minmay's account just so you could take credit for his ideas



Interesting. So the other, other good use of polymorph is to turn bulk quality permanent allies into really good permanent allies. Talk about spoily...

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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 16:54

Re: HD and polymorph

njvack wrote: Depth, as maniacjoe suggests, might work well too.

It might make polying uniques too good; you'd pretty much be guaranteed something way less powerful.
This was my purpose for adjusting Depth when polymorphing a unique, though I don't know the game well enough to suggest a balanced multiplier or additive.

Uniques could also only poly into uniques that could be placed randomly on your level? Gastronok's depth in uniques.des is D:8-12, Orc:1-2, Lair:1-3. Similarly-depthed uniques include Erica, Erolcha, Fannar, Grum, Harold, Joseph, Maurice, Nergalle, Psyche, Sonja, Urug. Some easier than Gastronok, some harder, but none a titan. Could be abused though to generate uniques for drops, etc.

The last sentence about uniques abuse and the concern earlier about leading upstaris to polymorph suggest using the player's greatest reached depth instead of current depth.
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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 17:26

Re: HD and polymorph

I feel pretty strongly that /poly and degeneration should never, ever, ever yield a unique. Or generate gear, for that matter.
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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 17:27

Re: HD and polymorph

It's not possible to polymorph anything into a unique.

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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 17:54

Re: HD and polymorph

No problem, thanks for filling me in on that
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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 18:52

Re: HD and polymorph

yeah but sometimes you polymorph a hydra into a storm dragon and get yourself some cool armor
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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 19:04

Re: HD and polymorph

partial wrote:yeah but sometimes you polymorph a hydra into a storm dragon and get yourself some cool armor
actually that doesn't work because polymorphed monsters leave the original corpse (also in older versions IIRC they were special-cased to not produce hides, like kiku/gozag corpses are now)
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Post Wednesday, 11th November 2015, 19:14

Re: HD and polymorph

Now the poly other is a limited resource, I think you should be able to use this trick to get cool armour, honestly.
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Post Thursday, 12th November 2015, 10:41

Re: HD and polymorph

njvack wrote:Now the poly other is a limited resource, I think you should be able to use this trick to get cool armour, honestly.


Personally, I'd like it if you could polymorph a target only once and there was a way of knowing in-game which monsters could polymorph into monsters with valuable hides.

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Post Thursday, 12th November 2015, 21:24

Re: HD and polymorph

bananaken wrote:
njvack wrote:Now the poly other is a limited resource, I think you should be able to use this trick to get cool armour, honestly.


Personally, I'd like it if you could polymorph a target only once and there was a way of knowing in-game which monsters could polymorph into monsters with valuable hides.


Better make it pretty random, you don't want players to go scumming for hides and xp in at the same time.
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Post Thursday, 12th November 2015, 22:40

Re: HD and polymorph

While I think occasionally getting a nice hide from a Polymorph would be cool, I feel like the main purpose of polymorph should be trying to change a dangerous enemy into a less dangerous enemy. The current awkward spoilery mechanic of knowing which enemies usually become weaker when polymorphed shouldn't be replaced by the even more awkward and comparably spoilery mechanic of knowing which enemies are most likely to turn into pearl dragons when polymorphed. So if polymorph could yield hides, I would say it should be unreliable and rare enough that it's basically pointlessly impractical to ever use it for that purpose and it's just an occasional neat random bonus.

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Post Thursday, 12th November 2015, 23:04

Re: HD and polymorph

reaver wrote:B)Encouraging players to lure monsters up stairs to polymorph them (this doesn't seem like a big deal? Monster would need to be in melee range. Maybe on something like Elf:1)

Use the level the monster was generated on instead of the level they're currently on. Not sure if that data is tracked though...
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Post Sunday, 15th November 2015, 02:08

Re: HD and polymorph

Using XP values rather HD sounds like a good idea. After all, HD is just a background mechanic whereas XP is supposed to really indicate the toughness of the monster, isn't it? XP values are already used by mercenaries to set their price, for example.

It would be helpful if someone would post a list of monsters ordered by HD, and a list of monsters ordered by XP value, so we could actually see what seems more appropriate.

You could define by hand, without relying on other numbers, which monsters you could possibly get by polymorphing a given monster, and do this for all monsters. This would allow you to forbid outrageous polymorphs like Gastronok the shard shrike, but may take a lot of time, at least several hours, and require updating when monsters are added or changed.

Here's a possible solution to "outrageous polymorph results" that doesn't change the underlying HD-related mechanics: successfully polymorphing a monster makes it vulnerable to further polymorphs, or turns it into a shape-shifter permanently so that it can change shape all by itself afterwards. Then you can continue zapping Gastronok the shard shrike until it turns back into a giant slug or something. This gets bonus points for tipping off players that shape-shifters are vulnerable to polymorph. And hey, it's not overpowered as long as paralysis is around.

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Post Monday, 16th November 2015, 18:18

Re: HD and polymorph

Pollen_Golem wrote:It would be helpful if someone would post a list of monsters ordered by HD, and a list of monsters ordered by XP value, so we could actually see what seems more appropriate.

I've written a script that breaks down mon-data.h. Here is the list sorted by HD. I didn't work too hard culling out behind-the-scenes entries that don't actually occur in the game.

Observations:
1) Gastronok can now turn into a juggernaut, how's that for a nasty surprise!
2) ?Vuln + /Poly is not something you want to try with the Lernaean Hydra.

  Code:
0   large skeleton
0   shadow
0   skeleton
0   small skeleton
1   ball python
1   bat
1   butterfly
1   crawling corpse
1   ghost
1   giant cockroach
1   giant gecko
1   giant newt
1   giant spore
1   goblin
1   hobgoblin
1   jackal
1   Jessica
1   kobold
1   lava orc
1   lurking horror
1   macabre mass
1   orc
1   pillar of salt
1   quokka
1   rat
1   small zombie
1   toadstool
1   training dummy
1   ufetubus
1   zombie
2   adder
2   gnoll
2   river rat
2   Robin
2   shadow imp
2   simulacrum
2   small simulacrum
2   Terence
2   white imp
3   block of ice
3   Blork the orc
3   Crazy Yiuf
3   crimson imp
3   Dowan
3   electric eel
3   giant eyeball
3   gnoll shaman
3   halfling
3   hell rat
3   hound
3   iguana
3   Ijyb
3   iron imp
3   jelly
3   killer bee
3   lava snake
3   lightning spire
3   Menkaure
3   mummy
3   Natasha
3   ooze
3   orc priest
3   orc wizard
3   quasit
3   sheep
3   Sigmund
3   vampire bat
3   wight
3   worker ant
4   ballistomycete
4   boggart
4   centaur
4   Duvessa
4   Edmund
4   Eustachio
4   giant frog
4   gnoll sergeant
4   Grum
4   oklob sapling
4   orc warrior
4   player ghost
4   player illusion
4   porcupine
4   scorpion
4   steam dragon
4   swamp drake
4   wasp
4   wolf
4   worm
5   battlesphere
5   big kobold
5   brain worm
5   crocodile
5   deep dwarf
5   demigod
5   dwarf
5   felid
5   fire bat
5   fulminant prism
5   guardian golem
5   hell hound
5   ice beast
5   large simulacrum
5   Maurice
5   mottled dragon
5   naga
5   necrophage
5   ogre
5   orb of destruction
5   Psyche
5   Purgy
5   sky beast
5   slave
5   spectral weapon
5   spider
5   tengu
5   vampire mosquito
5   warg
5   water moccasin
5   wyvern
6   air elemental
6   basilisk
6   black bear
6   blink frog
6   bog body
6   chaos spawn
6   deep elf fighter
6   deep elf mage
6   demonspawn
6   earth elemental
6   Erolcha
6   fire drake
6   fire elemental
6   formicid
6   gargoyle
6   golden eye
6   Grinder
6   hog
6   human
6   hyperactive ballistomycete
6   Joseph
6   kobold demonologist
6   large zombie
6   neqoxec
6   Pikel
6   Prince Ribbit
6   shadow
6   small abomination
6   soldier ant
6   Sonja
6   spatial vortex
6   two-headed ogre
6   vampire
6   water elemental
6   wraith
6   ynoxinul
7   black mamba
7   blue devil
7   deep elf priest
7   efreet
7   eye of draining
7   flying skull
7   guardian mummy
7   harpy
7   hell beast
7   hellion
7   hellwing
7   hippogriff
7   hungry ghost
7   molten gargoyle
7   naga mage
7   orb spider
7   phantom
7   polar bear
7   queen bee
7   raiju
7   red devil
7   shapeshifter
7   sixfirhy
7   smoke demon
7   spiny frog
7   spriggan
7   tengu conjurer
7   tormentor
7   troll
7   unseen horror
7   ushabti
7   yak
8   ancient zyme
8   apocalypse crab
8   burning bush
8   death scarab
8   diamond obelisk
8   draconian
8   dryad
8   elf
8   fire crab
8   freezing wraith
8   fungus
8   guardian serpent
8   hornet
8   ice statue
8   insubstantial wisp
8   jumping spider
8   komodo dragon
8   naga ritualist
8   octopode
8   orange demon
8   rust devil
8   salamander
8   silent spectre
8   Snorg
8   spectral thing
8   spellforged servitor
8   statue
8   tarantella
8   trapdoor spider
8   vault sentinel
8   vine stalker
8   wandering mushroom
8   wind drake
8   worldbinder
8   yaktaur
9   anubis guard
9   boulder beetle
9   cherub
9   cyclops
9   death drake
9   deep elf conjurer
9   deep elf summoner
9   demonic crawler
9   elephant
9   Erica
9   ghost crab
9   Harold
9   ironbrand convoker
9   lindwurm
9   mana viper
9   manticore
9   moth of wrath
9   naga sharpshooter
9   Nessos
9   orc knight
9   orc sorcerer
9   phantasmal warrior
9   redback
9   siren
9   swamp dragon
9   thrashing horror
9   toenail golem
9   Urug
10   briar patch
10   centaur warrior
10   death knight
10   deep troll
10   eye of devastation
10   Fannar
10   faun
10   fire vortex
10   gelid demonspawn
10   giant orange brain
10   glowing shapeshifter
10   hell knight
10   infernal demonspawn
10   jiangshi
10   Josephine
10   lost soul
10   merfolk
10   monstrous demonspawn
10   mummy priest
10   naga warrior
10   necromancer
10   Nergalle
10   obsidian statue
10   ogre mage
10   oklob plant
10   orange crystal statue
10   plant
10   putrid demonspawn
10   salamander mystic
10   sea snake
10   shadow demon
10   shadow wraith
10   shining eye
10   shock serpent
10   skeletal warrior
10   snapping turtle
10   spatial maelstrom
10   sun demon
10   swamp worm
10   tengu warrior
10   torpor snail
10   torturous demonspawn
10   vampire mage
10   water nymph
10   wizard
10   wretched star
11   Agnes
11   anaconda
11   Azrael
11   death ooze
11   deep elf high priest
11   deep elf knight
11   flayed ghost
11   hell hog
11   hill giant
11   holy swine
11   ice devil
11   large abomination
11   orc high priest
11   rakshasa
11   slime creature
11   soul eater
11   spriggan druid
11   spriggan rider
11   vampire knight
11   wolf spider
12   alligator
12   angel
12   ball lightning
12   blizzard demon
12   deep elf demonologist
12   deep troll earth mage
12   deep troll shaman
12   ettin
12   Executioner
12   fire dragon
12   giant leech
12   great orb of eyes
12   griffon
12   ice dragon
12   iron elemental
12   merfolk impaler
12   satyr
12   snaplasher vine
12   snaplasher vine segment
12   spriggan berserker
12   starcursed mass
12   tentacle
12   tentacle segment
12   twister
12   ugly thing
13   cacodemon
13   curse skull
13   deathcap
13   drowned soul
13   eidolon
13   entropy weaver
13   ghost moth
13   green death
13   hydra
13   Louise
13   Maud
13   merfolk avatar
13   merfolk javelineer
13   minotaur
13   queen ant
13   shambling mangrove
13   vault guard
13   war gargoyle
14   Aizul
14   ancient champion
14   balrug
14   bennu
14   black draconian
14   catoblepas
14   curse toe
14   daeva
14   death cob
14   death yak
14   deep elf sorcerer
14   Donald
14   emperor scorpion
14   Frances
14   ghoul
14   green draconian
14   grey draconian
14   ironheart preserver
14   lorocyproca
14   merfolk aquamancer
14   mottled draconian
14   Murray
14   pale draconian
14   purple draconian
14   reaper
14   red draconian
14   Roxanne
14   spriggan air mage
14   storm dragon
14   white draconian
14   yaktaur captain
14   yellow draconian
15   Asterion
15   azure jelly
15   black sun
15   blood saint
15   chaos champion
15   corrupter
15   dancing weapon
15   deep elf annihilator
15   deep elf death mage
15   deep elf master archer
15   dire elephant
15   electric golem
15   elemental wellspring
15   Geryon
15   greater mummy
15   greater naga
15   iron golem
15   Jorgrun
15   mutant beast
15   ophan
15   Orb Guardian
15   orc warlord
15   salamander firebrand
15   salamander stormcaller
15   spriggan defender
15   the Enchantress
15   thorn hunter
15   warmonger
16   alligator snapping turtle
16   apis
16   crystal guardian
16   deep elf blademaster
16   Dispater
16   Dissolution
16   draconian annihilator
16   draconian caller
16   draconian knight
16   draconian monk
16   draconian scorcher
16   draconian shifter
16   draconian zealot
16   eldritch tentacle
16   eldritch tentacle segment
16   fire giant
16   frost giant
16   Gloorx Vloq
16   Ilsuiw
16   iron troll
16   Kirke
16   kraken
16   octopode crusher
16   Polyphemus
16   quicksilver dragon
16   Rupert
16   sphinx
16   stone giant
16   tentacled starspawn
16   Vashnia
16   vault warden
17   Arachne
17   Asmodeus
17   Mnoleg
17   shadow dragon
17   tengu reaver
17   the Serpent of Hell
17   the Serpent of Hell
17   the Serpent of Hell
17   the Serpent of Hell
17   Wiglaf
18   acid blob
18   Brimstone Fiend
18   caustic shrike
18   Chuck
18   Ereshkigal
18   golden dragon
18   Ice Fiend
18   Ignacio
18   iron dragon
18   Jory
18   Khufu
18   Mara
18   moon troll
18   Nikola
18   pearl dragon
18   profane servitor
18   revenant
18   Saint Roka
18   Shadow Fiend
18   very ugly thing
19   hell lord
19   Hell Sentinel
19   Lom Lobon
19   Mennas
19   pandemonium lord
19   Xtahua
20   bone dragon
20   bush
20   Cloud Mage
20   elephant slug
20   Gastronok
20   Hellbinder
20   hellephant
20   juggernaut
20   Killer Klown
20   lich
20   Nellie
20   Norris
20   Sojobo
20   titan
21   Cerebov
21   Frederick
21   shard shrike
21   the royal jelly
22   Antaeus
22   Boris
22   Margery
22   starspawn tentacle
22   starspawn tentacle segment
22   the iron giant
22   Tiamat
23   tentacled monstrosity
25   seraph
27   ancient lich
30   orb of fire
30   the Lernaean hydra
Won (48). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 6 Backgrounds: Tm, AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 3 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC

For this message the author MainiacJoe has received thanks:
Pollen_Golem

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1818

Joined: Thursday, 31st May 2012, 15:45

Post Monday, 16th November 2015, 18:19

Re: HD and polymorph

And here is the list of HD ascending by monster name. Here I didn't cull out initial 'the' etc.

  Code:
18   acid blob
2   adder
11   Agnes
6   air elemental
14   Aizul
12   alligator
16   alligator snapping turtle
11   anaconda
14   ancient champion
27   ancient lich
8   ancient zyme
12   angel
22   Antaeus
9   anubis guard
16   apis
8   apocalypse crab
17   Arachne
17   Asmodeus
15   Asterion
11   Azrael
15   azure jelly
12   ball lightning
1   ball python
4   ballistomycete
14   balrug
6   basilisk
1   bat
5   battlesphere
14   bennu
5   big kobold
6   black bear
14   black draconian
7   black mamba
15   black sun
6   blink frog
12   blizzard demon
3   block of ice
15   blood saint
3   Blork the orc
7   blue devil
6   bog body
4   boggart
20   bone dragon
22   Boris
9   boulder beetle
5   brain worm
10   briar patch
18   Brimstone Fiend
8   burning bush
20   bush
1   butterfly
13   cacodemon
14   catoblepas
18   caustic shrike
4   centaur
10   centaur warrior
21   Cerebov
15   chaos champion
6   chaos spawn
9   cherub
18   Chuck
20   Cloud Mage
15   corrupter
1   crawling corpse
3   Crazy Yiuf
3   crimson imp
5   crocodile
16   crystal guardian
13   curse skull
14   curse toe
9   cyclops
14   daeva
15   dancing weapon
14   death cob
9   death drake
10   death knight
11   death ooze
8   death scarab
14   death yak
13   deathcap
5   deep dwarf
15   deep elf annihilator
16   deep elf blademaster
9   deep elf conjurer
15   deep elf death mage
12   deep elf demonologist
6   deep elf fighter
11   deep elf high priest
11   deep elf knight
6   deep elf mage
15   deep elf master archer
7   deep elf priest
14   deep elf sorcerer
9   deep elf summoner
10   deep troll
12   deep troll earth mage
12   deep troll shaman
5   demigod
9   demonic crawler
6   demonspawn
8   diamond obelisk
15   dire elephant
16   Dispater
16   Dissolution
14   Donald
3   Dowan
8   draconian
16   draconian annihilator
16   draconian caller
16   draconian knight
16   draconian monk
16   draconian scorcher
16   draconian shifter
16   draconian zealot
13   drowned soul
8   dryad
4   Duvessa
5   dwarf
6   earth elemental
4   Edmund
7   efreet
13   eidolon
16   eldritch tentacle
16   eldritch tentacle segment
3   electric eel
15   electric golem
15   elemental wellspring
9   elephant
20   elephant slug
8   elf
14   emperor scorpion
13   entropy weaver
18   Ereshkigal
9   Erica
6   Erolcha
12   ettin
4   Eustachio
12   Executioner
10   eye of devastation
7   eye of draining
10   Fannar
10   faun
5   felid
5   fire bat
8   fire crab
12   fire dragon
6   fire drake
6   fire elemental
16   fire giant
10   fire vortex
11   flayed ghost
7   flying skull
6   formicid
14   Frances
21   Frederick
8   freezing wraith
16   frost giant
5   fulminant prism
8   fungus
6   gargoyle
20   Gastronok
10   gelid demonspawn
15   Geryon
1   ghost
9   ghost crab
13   ghost moth
14   ghoul
1   giant cockroach
3   giant eyeball
4   giant frog
1   giant gecko
12   giant leech
1   giant newt
10   giant orange brain
1   giant spore
16   Gloorx Vloq
10   glowing shapeshifter
2   gnoll
4   gnoll sergeant
3   gnoll shaman
1   goblin
18   golden dragon
6   golden eye
12   great orb of eyes
15   greater mummy
15   greater naga
13   green death
14   green draconian
14   grey draconian
12   griffon
6   Grinder
4   Grum
5   guardian golem
7   guardian mummy
8   guardian serpent
3   halfling
9   Harold
7   harpy
7   hell beast
11   hell hog
5   hell hound
10   hell knight
19   hell lord
3   hell rat
19   Hell Sentinel
20   Hellbinder
20   hellephant
7   hellion
7   hellwing
11   hill giant
7   hippogriff
1   hobgoblin
6   hog
11   holy swine
8   hornet
3   hound
6   human
7   hungry ghost
13   hydra
6   hyperactive ballistomycete
5   ice beast
11   ice devil
12   ice dragon
18   Ice Fiend
8   ice statue
18   Ignacio
3   iguana
3   Ijyb
16   Ilsuiw
10   infernal demonspawn
8   insubstantial wisp
18   iron dragon
12   iron elemental
15   iron golem
3   iron imp
16   iron troll
9   ironbrand convoker
14   ironheart preserver
1   jackal
3   jelly
1   Jessica
10   jiangshi
15   Jorgrun
18   Jory
6   Joseph
10   Josephine
20   juggernaut
8   jumping spider
18   Khufu
3   killer bee
20   Killer Klown
16   Kirke
1   kobold
6   kobold demonologist
8   komodo dragon
16   kraken
11   large abomination
5   large simulacrum
0   large skeleton
6   large zombie
1   lava orc
3   lava snake
20   lich
3   lightning spire
9   lindwurm
19   Lom Lobon
14   lorocyproca
10   lost soul
13   Louise
1   lurking horror
1   macabre mass
9   mana viper
9   manticore
18   Mara
22   Margery
13   Maud
5   Maurice
3   Menkaure
19   Mennas
10   merfolk
14   merfolk aquamancer
13   merfolk avatar
12   merfolk impaler
13   merfolk javelineer
13   minotaur
17   Mnoleg
7   molten gargoyle
10   monstrous demonspawn
18   moon troll
9   moth of wrath
14   mottled draconian
5   mottled dragon
3   mummy
10   mummy priest
14   Murray
15   mutant beast
5   naga
7   naga mage
8   naga ritualist
9   naga sharpshooter
10   naga warrior
3   Natasha
10   necromancer
5   necrophage
20   Nellie
6   neqoxec
10   Nergalle
9   Nessos
18   Nikola
20   Norris
10   obsidian statue
8   octopode
16   octopode crusher
5   ogre
10   ogre mage
10   oklob plant
4   oklob sapling
3   ooze
15   ophan
10   orange crystal statue
8   orange demon
15   Orb Guardian
5   orb of destruction
30   orb of fire
7   orb spider
1   orc
11   orc high priest
9   orc knight
3   orc priest
9   orc sorcerer
15   orc warlord
4   orc warrior
3   orc wizard
14   pale draconian
19   pandemonium lord
18   pearl dragon
9   phantasmal warrior
7   phantom
6   Pikel
1   pillar of salt
10   plant
4   player ghost
4   player illusion
7   polar bear
16   Polyphemus
4   porcupine
6   Prince Ribbit
18   profane servitor
5   Psyche
5   Purgy
14   purple draconian
10   putrid demonspawn
3   quasit
13   queen ant
7   queen bee
16   quicksilver dragon
1   quokka
7   raiju
11   rakshasa
1   rat
14   reaper
7   red devil
14   red draconian
9   redback
18   revenant
2   river rat
2   Robin
14   Roxanne
16   Rupert
8   rust devil
18   Saint Roka
8   salamander
15   salamander firebrand
10   salamander mystic
15   salamander stormcaller
12   satyr
4   scorpion
10   sea snake
25   seraph
0   shadow
6   shadow
10   shadow demon
17   shadow dragon
18   Shadow Fiend
2   shadow imp
10   shadow wraith
13   shambling mangrove
7   shapeshifter
21   shard shrike
3   sheep
10   shining eye
10   shock serpent
3   Sigmund
8   silent spectre
2   simulacrum
9   siren
7   sixfirhy
10   skeletal warrior
0   skeleton
5   sky beast
5   slave
11   slime creature
6   small abomination
2   small simulacrum
0   small skeleton
1   small zombie
7   smoke demon
12   snaplasher vine
12   snaplasher vine segment
10   snapping turtle
8   Snorg
20   Sojobo
6   soldier ant
6   Sonja
11   soul eater
10   spatial maelstrom
6   spatial vortex
8   spectral thing
5   spectral weapon
8   spellforged servitor
16   sphinx
5   spider
7   spiny frog
7   spriggan
14   spriggan air mage
12   spriggan berserker
15   spriggan defender
11   spriggan druid
11   spriggan rider
12   starcursed mass
22   starspawn tentacle
22   starspawn tentacle segment
8   statue
4   steam dragon
16   stone giant
14   storm dragon
10   sun demon
9   swamp dragon
4   swamp drake
10   swamp worm
8   tarantella
5   tengu
7   tengu conjurer
17   tengu reaver
10   tengu warrior
12   tentacle
12   tentacle segment
23   tentacled monstrosity
16   tentacled starspawn
2   Terence
15   the Enchantress
22   the iron giant
30   the Lernaean hydra
21   the royal jelly
17   the Serpent of Hell
17   the Serpent of Hell
17   the Serpent of Hell
17   the Serpent of Hell
15   thorn hunter
9   thrashing horror
22   Tiamat
20   titan
1   toadstool
9   toenail golem
7   tormentor
10   torpor snail
10   torturous demonspawn
1   training dummy
8   trapdoor spider
7   troll
12   twister
6   two-headed ogre
1   ufetubus
12   ugly thing
7   unseen horror
9   Urug
7   ushabti
6   vampire
3   vampire bat
11   vampire knight
10   vampire mage
5   vampire mosquito
16   Vashnia
13   vault guard
8   vault sentinel
16   vault warden
18   very ugly thing
8   vine stalker
8   wandering mushroom
13   war gargoyle
5   warg
15   warmonger
4   wasp
6   water elemental
5   water moccasin
10   water nymph
14   white draconian
2   white imp
3   wight
17   Wiglaf
8   wind drake
10   wizard
4   wolf
11   wolf spider
3   worker ant
8   worldbinder
4   worm
6   wraith
10   wretched star
5   wyvern
19   Xtahua
7   yak
8   yaktaur
14   yaktaur captain
14   yellow draconian
6   ynoxinul
1   zombie
Won (48). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 6 Backgrounds: Tm, AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 3 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC

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Post Monday, 16th November 2015, 18:22

Re: HD and polymorph

Pollen_Golem wrote:It would be helpful if someone would post a list of monsters ordered by HD, and a list of monsters ordered by XP value, so we could actually see what seems more appropriate.
I'd be happy to generate a list of monster by XP gained, but I don't know where to find it. All that mon-data has is "XP modifier" and multiplying that by HD does not give the values that the wiki reports for several monsters.
Won (48). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 6 Backgrounds: Tm, AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 3 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC

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Post Monday, 16th November 2015, 19:01

Re: HD and polymorph

some oddly low-HD monsters:
5 Maurice
7 orb spider
7 naga mage
7 black mamba
10 flavored demonspawn, although demonspawn professions are in the teen range
10 deep troll
11 anaconda
12 fire/ice dragon

some oddly high-HD monsters:
13 vault guard
14 catoblepas
14 death yak
15 spriggan defender
20 bush
20 Killer Klown (at least the results should be appropriately amusing)
22 Margery

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Post Monday, 16th November 2015, 19:16

Re: HD and polymorph

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/489 ... l.cc#L1985
There's the function that's used. Roughly, you do:
  Code:
(16+HP)*HD^2*Diff*speed*mod/1000

where
  • diff is a difficulty factor based on spell-list, regen rate, item use, etc, bounded to (0.7<diff<2.0)
  • speed is 10 for normal monsters, higher for faster ones
  • mod is the number listed in the monster definition
Then pass that through a couple stepdowns, and there you have it.

For most monsters; resurrected undead (zombies, skeletons, etc.) of any sort are half that, and starcursed masses and slime creatures have the special casing you'd expect to make them work out intuitively (killing a stack of 2 gives twice the XP of a single, etc.) And slow melee-only monsters have a special stepdown (worms are the only one I can think of right off...)
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Post Monday, 16th November 2015, 19:36

Re: HD and polymorph

byrel wrote:https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/4897f3419657389e0ab8b02cdff1975029151e49/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc#L1985
There's the function that's used. Roughly, you do:
  Code:
(16+HP)*HD^2*Diff*speed*mod/1000

where
  • diff is a difficulty factor based on spell-list, regen rate, item use, etc, bounded to (0.7<diff<2.0)
  • speed is 10 for normal monsters, higher for faster ones
  • mod is the number listed in the monster definition
Then pass that through a couple stepdowns, and there you have it.

For most monsters; resurrected undead (zombies, skeletons, etc.) of any sort are half that, and starcursed masses and slime creatures have the special casing you'd expect to make them work out intuitively (killing a stack of 2 gives twice the XP of a single, etc.) And slow melee-only monsters have a special stepdown (worms are the only one I can think of right off...)
Wow. Sorry, Pollen_golem, I'm probably not going to make that XP list anytime soon.
Won (48). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 6 Backgrounds: Tm, AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 3 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC
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Post Monday, 16th November 2015, 20:57

Re: HD and polymorph

... and this is why XP can't actually be used to determine poly targets.
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Post Tuesday, 17th November 2015, 10:57

Re: HD and polymorph

njvack wrote:
Quazifuji wrote:I mean, that wouldn't make the unambiguously good - you could still turn an HD 5 creature into a Boggart

I've never gotten an early boggart -- do they always summon stuff from late D and Depths, or does it depend on where they are?

A quick look at mon-cast.cc makes me think they summon stuff appropriate to your current level, but I'm quite able to be wrong about the segment of code I'm looking at.


Yes, their shadow creatures works just like yours. I.e., if you cast it on d:2 you're going to get a bunch of lame shit. That being said, if you poly something into a boggart on d:2, that doesn't make you any more likely to handle the bunch of lame shit it summoned on you.
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Post Wednesday, 18th November 2015, 02:38

Re: HD and polymorph

A couple of practical solutions.

The first one is somewhat of a hack and just solves the most pressing issue:
Introduce a LOWER_POLY flag that makes the polymorph function look at (2/3)*HD+1 for the purpose of choosing a polymorph target. Apply this flag to problematic monsters like Gastronok and vault guards. There already exists a NO_POLY flag so this flag can be programmed similarly.

The second one is better overall, and its primary advantage is that it would not change the maths behind how polymorph matches one monster to another:
Give every monster a new parameter, a Polymorph Dice, to be used in place of HD. Thereafter, every monster's PD can be manually changed at a moment's notice. It can be done whenever a hilariously weird-HD monster is noticed, or in one sweeping recalibration (possibly making use of XP values) that still leaves PD numbers open to further tinkering. This will positively affect not only inappropriately high-HD monsters that get polymorphed, like Gastronok, but also inappropriately low-HD monsters that are chosen as polymorph results, like boggarts. Overall will lead to friendlier polymorphing.

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Post Wednesday, 18th November 2015, 04:07

Re: HD and polymorph

Yeah, adding a new hidden property for every monster is a great way to make polymorph less spoilery.
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Post Wednesday, 18th November 2015, 04:27

Re: HD and polymorph

How about making polymorph work like new level creature generation? eg most of the time you get something level appropriate, but occasionally you get something OOD.

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Post Wednesday, 18th November 2015, 18:40

Re: HD and polymorph

... and, say, uniques could have a larger chance of getting something OOD.
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Post Wednesday, 18th November 2015, 18:55

Re: HD and polymorph

chequers wrote:How about making polymorph work like new level creature generation? eg most of the time you get something level appropriate, but occasionally you get something OOD.

so, uh... the game would not care whether you're polymorphing an orc or an orc warlord, the results would be the same?

and if you polymorph something in Snake, you'll get a snake/snakoid 99-100% of the time?

...

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Post Wednesday, 18th November 2015, 20:24

Re: HD and polymorph

MainiacJoe wrote:
Pollen_Golem wrote:Observations:
1) Gastronok can now turn into a juggernaut, how's that for a nasty surprise!


3976 penismuncher the Basher (level 10, -34/71 HPs)
Began as an Octopode Chaos Knight on Nov 17, 2015.

Annihilated by Gastronok the juggernaut (93 damage)
... on level 8 of the Dungeon.
The game lasted 00:15:01 (8936 turns).

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Post Wednesday, 18th November 2015, 20:27

Re: HD and polymorph

Pollen_Golem wrote:
chequers wrote:How about making polymorph work like new level creature generation? eg most of the time you get something level appropriate, but occasionally you get something OOD.

so, uh... the game would not care whether you're polymorphing an orc or an orc warlord, the results would be the same?

and if you polymorph something in Snake, you'll get a snake/snakoid 99-100% of the time?

...


As a rule, polymorph selection should / will never result in a jobbed individual. I agree that the idea is kind of bad; polymorph's behavior of creating very random creatures should be conserved no matter what happens to it.

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Post Wednesday, 18th November 2015, 21:07

Re: HD and polymorph

Maybe polymorph should just be treated as a slightly more rare wand that transforms an enemy into a "bad form", much like the monster only spell Polymorph. This way you'll get a small, fixed list of possibilities, making it sensible enough to convey the information to players in-game. You might need to alter this polymorph a bit though, as I'm not sure there's support for stuff like statue form and dragon form (you may want to replace these with stone golems and fire dragons respectively). The potency of the wand can be adjusted respectively to reflect its usefulness, as well as the probabilities for getting a particular form.

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Post Wednesday, 18th November 2015, 21:29

Re: HD and polymorph

Pollen_Golem wrote:
chequers wrote:How about making polymorph work like new level creature generation? eg most of the time you get something level appropriate, but occasionally you get something OOD.

so, uh... the game would not care whether you're polymorphing an orc or an orc warlord, the results would be the same?

and if you polymorph something in Snake, you'll get a snake/snakoid 99-100% of the time?

...
Just have it not respect branch: I don't know the formula, but each level in branches has an equivalent Dungeon depth. I'm guessing it's like this:
  Code:
Lair entrance on D:9, Snake entrance on L:4, you're on S:2, for a total of 9+4+2 equivalent depth of 15.
Let's say the other branches in the game with this equivalent Depth are D:15, O:4, E:2, Snake:2, and Shoals:1. So pick a branch at random, and then generate a monster from that branch at the equivalent level. This will have a jump when the equivalent depth becomes 16 i.e. Depths: deal with it. And add some depth when polymorphing a unique.
Won (48). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 6 Backgrounds: Tm, AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 3 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC
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Post Wednesday, 18th November 2015, 23:03

Re: HD and polymorph

you're still saying that it should not matter whether it's a river rat you've just polymorphed, or a death yak
making polymorph a "turn into popcorn" wand, rather radically changing what it's good for
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