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Blades Runner
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Remove Shafts
At the very least, let them only drop you a single floor at most. Three is really pushing it.
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Blades Runner
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duvessa wrote:D:1 shafts are so rare that I doubt shafts have ever caused an unavoidable death. I've certainly never seen it or heard of it happening.
If you just said "remove traps" then I'd agree, but instead you've made it sound like you not only don't understand why traps are bad design, but don't even care and just want an easier game. It's like supporting gay marriage legalization because you think it would give you more lesbian porn to watch.
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Laraso wrote:Would you care to elaborate on what I'm missing here? Because you don't seem to think traps are good design, so what makes them "bad design" other than what I already said? My argument against it is "it happens completely randomly and is entirely outside of the players control", which in a game like this sounds to me like bad design, but apparently that's not a good enough reason?
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Laraso wrote:Would you care to elaborate on what I'm missing here? Because you don't seem to think traps are good design, so what makes them "bad design" other than what I already said? My argument against it is "it happens completely randomly and is entirely outside of the players control", which in a game like this sounds to me like bad design, but apparently that's not a good enough reason?
Laraso wrote:Personally, I'm a strong believer that any and every game should be built around optimal play.
Lair Larrikin
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johlstei wrote:I think shafts are fun and escaping after getting shafted from say, D:5 to D:8 is really satisfying.
Blades Runner
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tabstorm wrote:I encourage you to try playing Brogue. And seriously try to win it and play "optimally", don't just die on D:5 repeatedly and say "Wow, this game is so difficult and pretty and well-designed and...". If that dosen't make you think traps are bad I don't know what to tell you. Suggestion: Make sure to hit 's' to search for traps.
tabstorm wrote:Laraso wrote:Personally, I'm a strong believer that any and every game should be built around optimal play.
This is basically futile for Crawl. If you had to play close to optimally in Crawl hardly anyone would play it because it would be too painful.
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Laraso wrote:[Shafting] happens completely randomly and is entirely outside of the players control, and unlike teleport traps it puts you in completely unexplored + unfamiliar + unsafe territory with no sense of where you should retreat to. There is nothing a player can do to avoid falling in one, other than being able to fly or just getting lucky and not triggering one.
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dpeg wrote:Exercise for the grumbling reader: devise a system that keeps shafts and does away with tracking squares. (It can obviously be done, just was never considered necessary to implement.)
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duvessa wrote:D:1 shafts are so rare that I doubt shafts have ever caused an unavoidable death. I've certainly never seen it or heard of it happening.
If you just said "remove traps" then I'd agree, but instead you've made it sound like you not only don't understand why traps are bad design, but don't even care and just want an easier game. It's like supporting gay marriage legalization because you think it would give you more lesbian porn to watch.
dpeg wrote:The only good player is a dead player.
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adozu wrote:ps: this is superior to simply rolling for a chanche of any step you take shafting you because eventually that would make every single tile into a shaft.
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adozu wrote:and that if X(((1-X)Y)/(1-XY)) > XY it is optimal to always step on new tiles!
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adozu wrote:you are right, there isnt a solution for that to reasonably happen whitout an adjustment, also i suck at math but that was just to show an edge case.
i agree that you can degenerate it to the point where it is the same as randomly rolling for being shafted on any tile (that's exactly the idea: so there are no more favored tiles) the difference is that which tile are traps or aren't is predetermined beforehand which prevents some scum opportunities.
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byrel wrote:Actually I think adozu is right... by changing the chance you get shafted each time you step on a shaft tile, you can make it have the same expected value whether you're walking on new squares or old ones.
byrel wrote: It would still be optimal to run monsters over every square a bunch of times
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Pollen_Golem wrote:byrel wrote:Actually I think adozu is right... by changing the chance you get shafted each time you step on a shaft tile, you can make it have the same expected value whether you're walking on new squares or old ones.
This is my point, not adozu's.
adozu wrote:given that if X(((1-X)Y)/(1-XY)) < XY it is still optimal to step on previously explored tiles
and that if X(((1-X)Y)/(1-XY)) > XY it is optimal to always step on new tiles! ...
therefore every time a shaft fails to trigger its activation rate is adjusted into Z such that Z((1-X)Y)/(1-XY) = XY
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byrel wrote:He said it first, so I'll give him credit.
adozu wrote:ps: this is superior to simply rolling for a chanche of any step you take shafting you because eventually that would make every single tile into a shaft.
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Laraso wrote:I don't particularly like it when games go out of their way to make sure that the player can't screw up or make mistakes, and I greatly respect games that manage to create a high skill-ceiling for its players while also keeping the game interesting and fun.
Laraso wrote:Good challenges are ones that you as a player have to put yourself into and overcome
Blades Runner
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Quazifuji wrote:In many cases, preventing the player from screwing up and making mistakes has no effect whatsoever on the game's skill ceiling, all it does is increase the skill floor, which many would consider a bad thing. For example, warning you when you are about to anger your god. That has no effect on the skill ceiling, because any player anywhere near the skill ceiling can always just keep track of every effect that could anger their god or looking it up if they're unsure anyway. All it does is increase the number of ways new player could accidentally mess up because they don't know all the rules.
Quazifuji wrote:Laraso wrote:Good challenges are ones that you as a player have to put yourself into and overcome
Why? I'm not being facetious, I honestly want to hear why you believe this. What's wrong with being unexpectedly thrust into a challenging situation and force to figure out how to escape? DCSS is all about adapting. It's one of the most core, fundamental elements of gameplay: that you have to adapt to the challenge each game throws. Why should the challenges be limited to events like going down a staircase or opening a door? I mean, heck, if we take your argument to the extreme, you could say the entire game should consist of nothing but runed door vaults. But it doesn't, because that would suck, because sometimes challenges should find you. The challenges like branch ends where you know roughly what's coming and prepare for it are fun, but the ones that are unexpected that force you to think on your feet are what make up the majority of the game.
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archaeo wrote:Laraso, would you have a problem if, say, some kind of enemy Formicid had an AF_SHAFT attack or MR-gated spell? e: note that this satisfies, I think, dpeg's request for a non-trap way to do shafting, as well as basically all the other traps.
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archaeo wrote:I think there's an argument to be made that tabstorm's right, and Crawl would seriously be better with random Xom/Hell effects across the whole game via the trap-triggers-when-it-comes-in-LOS approach, but I tend to lean toward simply removing traps and giving those effects to monsters instead. Laraso, would you have a problem if, say, some kind of enemy Formicid had an AF_SHAFT attack or MR-gated spell? e: note that this satisfies, I think, dpeg's request for a non-trap way to do shafting, as well as basically all the other traps.
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