You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove it


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 10:19

You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove it

You did't choose a be a dick either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 10:57

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

We're the supposed authors of out thought, but in reality, we are not. We do life, and play games with it, but it's just chance.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 11:11

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I'd say this makes discussion possible. Or at least fucking stupid.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 11:31

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Sam Harris is a gift from god. Not Asehenzari, I never have enough ?RC scrolls. Gift from god, he is.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 11:36

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Are there really that many ppl who actually watched the video?? I'd like it be true. It's one of the most profound videos of them all.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 11:41

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Usually people give me shit at this point, but I guess Mr. Harris has such good points that it makes it harder to rail against.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 11:41

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Yeah I'm bating you turnips, of course.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 11:43

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

But Mr. Harris's point still stands. I'm at awe for it. How did I not see it before?
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 11:45

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Sam Harris is like the wisest guy you'd ever ask to come to a party. Everything he says is grounded to common sense, everything at all.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 11:54

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

So I've accomlished these things: I posted a very good video. I've established that I'm a turnip. I think way too highly of myself.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 11:57

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

And also that I'm quite drunk. Like I couldn't say how many bears it'd take one to be that drunk. Was it bears or beers? No matter.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:00

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:And also that I'm quite drunk.

Somehow I was waiting for that line... :)
...{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE
{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWz
DDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGl

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:02

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I'm quite embarrased of my contribution from all this, apart from the original video, that I feel is quite powerful and everybody should watch. Yeah, not that great.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:03

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Sprucery wrote:
ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:And also that I'm quite drunk.

Somehow I was waiting for that line... :)

Did you enjoy the original video at least?
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:06

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I'm drunk as fuck I it seems to me I'm not making things easier for me. Better than Facebook though.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:08

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I hope I read it the next day and feel the shame. Now I'm awesome! No shame, just thinking about whether I had a choice in it or not. Free will?
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:08

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

every other time I read your username I read it as ThreeInvisibleDicks

just though that'd be a perfect thread to share this

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:11

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Sar wrote:every other time I read your username I read it as ThreeInvisibleDicks

just though that'd be a perfect thread to share this

To be honest, that was sort of the play there. I like the ducks more though.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:11

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I'm sure the video is great but I just don't have time for such long videos...
...{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE
{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWz
DDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGl

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:14

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Sprucery wrote:I'm sure the video is great but I just don't have time for such long videos...

It's the most profound video you'll ever watch. An hour of your eternity is like nothing.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:17

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Let's have a vote. Who actually did watch the video, and found it interesting? I mean having no free will has to be of *some* interest for people.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:26

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Sprucery wrote:I'm sure the video is great but I just don't have time for such long videos...

Second of all, afther that video you'll ask whether you had the choice of not watching it in the first place. It's that good.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:36

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

But I already think that there is no such thing as free will. There's an illusion of it, and that is enough.
...{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE
{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWz
DDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGl

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:41

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Sprucery wrote:But I already think that there is no such thing as free will. There's an illusion of it, and that is enough.

Well, so it's a bit embarassing for me to root it then. You'd still well like Sam's position however, it's very succintly put. Is that a word?
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:54

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Nobody? For me that video was a big thing. It really did none of that for any of you?
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 12:56

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I really might be "special" then, even more so than I thought.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 13:18

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

can I suggest using tileschat for your conversational urges, T.I.D.? Not that you're breaking rules or anything, it's just that you're more likely to see a response in more of a "chatroom" kind of setting, and tileschat has a rich collection of often drunk people talking semi-coherently about topics like free will.

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 14:26

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Just saying, this was the perfect thread for taking a break from my wife's 12-hour+ labor. I didn't watch the video, but I loved the rambling. :D
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 14:56

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

OP are you sure you didn't black out, break into a pharmacy, and steal all of their ambien

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 15:25

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I love your sarcastic comments. Yeah, I hope this shit ain't too deep for CYC, which I'm sure most of you read religiously, without a hint of humour.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 15:31

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

byrel wrote:Just saying, this was the perfect thread for taking a break from my wife's 12-hour+ labor. I didn't watch the video, but I loved the rambling. :D

If you're being serious, I'd say wow, and congrats and all that bullshit.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 16:28

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I'm a pretty hardcore behavioralist as well, though probably not as much as this guy is. It makes it easier to forgive people, but of course there are behaviors that should not be tolerated. A lot of people don't like this stuff because it leads down the dark road of evopsych and making excuses for murderers and rapists, but I believe we can't solve a problem if we pretend it doesn''t exist.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 16:50

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I care about what's true. Mr. Harris makes a pretty sound argument for it, and for me it doesn't matter whether I like it or not, but is it true? If it is, I have to eat this cake on determinism whatever it's consequences, and take it for what it is. At least it's a very interesting position.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 16:53

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I find it very difficult to accept Harris' argument as anything other than pseudoscientific nonsense, on the order of quantum mysticism. We don't understand how cause and effect works in the brain enough to conclusively say anything about free will, imo.

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 16:55

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I chose not to watch the video.

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 17:01

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

archaeo wrote:I find it very difficult to accept Harris' argument as anything other than pseudoscientific nonsense, on the order of quantum mysticism. We don't understand how cause and effect works in the brain enough to conclusively say anything about free will, imo.

I'm not a philopher, clearly, but what exactly in his arguments do you find hard to accept? Maybe I'm naive, but I find the argument very convincing.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 17:07

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

this blog post probably sums up my issues with Harris' argument better than I could.

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 17:09

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

archaeo wrote:this blog post probably sums up my issues with Harris' argument better than I could.

Thanks for a timely reply. I'll get to it after my beer run.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 17:14

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:
archaeo wrote:this blog post probably sums up my issues with Harris' argument better than I could.

Thanks for a timely reply. I'll get to it after my beer run.

If there is a more interesting thing is this world that free will being potentially illusionary, I don't know what it may be.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 18:08

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

archaeo wrote:this blog post probably sums up my issues with Harris' argument better than I could.

Ad hominem, ad hominen, ad hominen, an anecdote, ad hominem. Well, that's not a really convincing start. Christ dude, that's a horrible way of making a convincing argument. And I only got through the first paragraph. The dude is insulting my intelligence from the start, and expects me to read through this rant.
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 18:39

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I mean, I didn't say it was a model of good argumentation or thoughtful writing. But the substantive points cover my criticism: Harris' thesis combines reductiveness with some philosophical semantics to tell a "hard truth" that doesn't have any real basis in actual science.

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 18:49

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I do think that Harris' arguments are more philosphical than scientific. I wouldn't even argue they're correct, but they do appeal to me on some sense that at least the article at hand didn't convince me otherwise. So I continue to be convinced that the RNGods of real life are deterministic, but I'm open to further arguments. What else could I do, having no free will..?
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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 19:01

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." -- Rush

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 19:20

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

archaeo wrote:I mean, I didn't say it was a model of good argumentation or thoughtful writing. But the substantive points cover my criticism: Harris' thesis combines reductiveness with some philosophical semantics to tell a "hard truth" that doesn't have any real basis in actual science.

What substantive points? All Horgan does is insist that his mind -- unlike the robotic contraptions that apparently pass for minds in "the killer with a brain tumor, the schizophrenic, the sociopath, the obsessive-compulsive" -- is responsive to the "substance" of ideas and thoughts. Which is ludicrous, because ideas and thoughts do not exist independently of a brain, and Horgan's brain is made up of exactly the same kinds of neurons and chemicals and atoms and subatomic particles as anyone else's.

To be fair, I haven't listened to this particular Harris talk and I'm not going to defend him against ad-hominems or intellectual assaults. But I happen to agree that science points pretty clearly against the classical conception of free will as Horgan is defending it.
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Barkeep

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 19:39

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I guess I'm taking issue with this idea of a "classical conception of free will." What does that even mean? The part of Horgan's argument that I like was this paragraph:

Horgan wrote:But just because my choices are limited doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because I don't have absolute freedom doesn't mean I have no freedom at all. Saying that free will doesn't exist because it isn't absolutely free is like saying truth doesn't exist because we can't achieve absolute, perfect knowledge.

It seems obvious to me that, even if "ideas and thoughts do not exist independently of a brain," there's abundant evidence that purposeful cognitive effort leads to changes in both cognition and behavior. There's evidence that purposeful work can affect cognition, even the physical brain, in a manner that isn't at all inconsistent with free will. It's just inconsistent with an ideologically pure definition of "free will," which isn't very interesting to me.

I guess what I'm saying is that if there's any real answer to these problems, it's someplace between pure determinism and pure free will-ism, whatever the fancy term for that is. Our biology influences our thoughts influence our biology, etc., and the interplay between them is enough free will to be going on with.

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 19:42

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

harris and dawkins have this thing where they've decided philosophy is useless, and then try to convince people of that... by using philosophy (which they don't know anyway)
also, extremely questionable understandings of gender equality, and general reactionary tendencies. that might not seem relevant at first, but what i'm saying is they're basically reddit except actually smart, which is kinda scary. they've made some cool scientific progress though

this "classical conception" of free will is shit, yes, philosophers already know that which is why they don't use it

our thoughts are our biology

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 19:54

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

Probably too much to ask of drunken post, but would be nice to have link to relevant part or a summary. Most of what I've seen of Sam Harris in the past has not made a very good impression. Like he claims that science replaces moral philosophy, and then uses very sloppy philosophy to justify his claim. Perhaps there is no free will, but I'd rather hear a more able exponent of the view who can understand and address the other side.

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 19:59

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

I have no idea about the free will stuff (I have always found the topic boring). But I read Harris, "The End of Faith", and was mightily unimpressed. "Reductionist" was the adjective which leapt to my mind as well, and it seems from the discussion above that it is basically the problem with this topic as well. The guy has a hammer and every topic to him looks like a nail. I am an atheist, but the guy knows nothing about politics and shouldn't shoot off his mouth about stuff he doesn't understand.

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Post Saturday, 26th September 2015, 00:01

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

If we accept both of these statements (and I do):

1. "our thoughts are our biology"
2: "Our biology influences our thoughts influence our biology"

Then 2 reduces to "biology influences biology influences biology", which is true but rather uninteresting, and we've already chucked any meaning the words "free will" could possibly contain. The fact that we are conscious of certain steps in the causal chain, in such a way that we experience ourselves "making a choice", does not mean that our conscious experience has any kind of causal power. It could simply be a byproduct, like the smoke that trails behind a freight train as it lumbers inevitably along its track.

Statements like "purposeful work can affect cognition" or "my chain of reasoning is determined by the substance of my thoughts, not their physical instantiation" -- these assert some kind of "pure thought" that supposedly exists independent of the physical world, yet has causal power over the physical world. That's a classical idea that goes back at least to Plato. But it tries to have things both ways, and is therefore ridiculous -- like saying that the smoke propels the train.

Ergo: Consciousness and free will are interesting illusions. Even having rejected them on what I consider to be unassailable philosophic grounds, I can't convince myself that I don't have either one!
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Post Saturday, 26th September 2015, 00:15

Re: You don't choose the character you like, and I can prove

didn`t read any of this. no, this isn`t a tldr, i just don`t have time for threads like i used to. still i feel like i can make a valuable contributions.

a. don`t marry her
b. quit that job, you are worth more
c. find someone new
d. hey you`ll get through it
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt

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