stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire


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Post Tuesday, 22nd September 2015, 19:59

stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

hellfire, blessed fire (or whatever it's called now), ghostly flames, cleansing flame etc. aren't affected by rF and generally aren't fiery, so why do they have "flame" or "fire" in their names
it makes it really hard for unspoiled players to figure out what they are

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Post Tuesday, 22nd September 2015, 20:09

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

hellfire = hellblast
blessed fire = holy light
ghostly flames = ghostly mist
cleansing flame = cleansing light

????

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Post Tuesday, 22nd September 2015, 20:20

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Call them clouds. xv already shows them as "clouds of ghostly flame" ...

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Post Tuesday, 22nd September 2015, 20:25

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

I know what cleansing flame is- that's what TSO worshippers can attack with as an ability, and what angels and daevas smite with.

What is blessed fire?
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Post Tuesday, 22nd September 2015, 21:04

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Looks like it's "Holy Fire" now, not blessed, and it's the attack Ophans use that surrounds you with holy clouds styled as "fire."

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Post Tuesday, 22nd September 2015, 22:03

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

I'm tempted to propose a creature that attacks by creating frozen flames.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd September 2015, 22:44

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Hurkyl wrote:I'm tempted to propose a creature that attacks by creating frozen flames.


If it explicitly used the lesser of your cold or fire resist, that might actually be interesting. Hell, you could even make a spell since Fire/Ice don't negatively crosstrain anymore.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd September 2015, 22:47

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Clearly, the path of least resistance here is to switch fire resistance (rF) to heat resistance (rH). Heat resistance only protects you against heat-related rapid oxidation; oxidation from other sources (acidic, necrotic, sacred, profane) would of course not be affected.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd September 2015, 00:31

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

and then Dith hates...heat? light? the way that's flavored also suffers from this whole issue
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Post Wednesday, 23rd September 2015, 09:08

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

would rH protect against scalding steam? would rSteam be just a subset of rH then like rF is a subset of rHellfire?

but then rF wouldn't be a subset of rHellfire anymore unless rSteam also carried over to rHellfire, or does rHellfire already protect against steam? i never had a chanche to really try that.

maybe rSticky should prevent you from getting the jelly mutation from jivya.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd September 2015, 11:48

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

KoboldLord wrote:Clearly, the path of least resistance here is to switch fire resistance (rF) to heat resistance (rH). Heat resistance only protects you against heat-related rapid oxidation; oxidation from other sources (acidic, necrotic, sacred, profane) would of course not be affected.


One of the main properties of fire is that it's very hot so I don't see how that would make things less confusing.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd September 2015, 15:00

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

adozu wrote:would rH protect against scalding steam? would rSteam be just a subset of rH then like rF is a subset of rHellfire?


For that matter, I feel like rHellfire and rF should be separated. Even if every enemy with rHellfire keeps rF+++ (so there's no gameplay effect), it's still weird to have rHellfire include rF+++ despite there being otherwise no relation between Hellfire and Fire besides the name.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd September 2015, 18:46

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Is there a good word for "thing that hurts you if you keep standing on it"? (other than fire)

"ghostly mist" is an OK name, but I think it wouldn't be obvious that you take damage from standing in it. "ghostly fire" seems like something you don't want to step in. I've never seen somebody think rF has an effect on ghostly flame. (Of course hellfire is much more confusing.).

I'm all for thinking of better names but unless they convey "Hey don't stand in this" I think name changes would be a lateral move.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd September 2015, 18:52

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

reaver wrote:I've never seen somebody think rF has an effect on ghostly flame.
i made this topic because of people in IRC thinking exactly that

reaver wrote:"ghostly mist" is an OK name, but I think it wouldn't be obvious that you take damage from standing in it. "ghostly fire" seems like something you don't want to step in.
so you want to rename clouds of negative energy to clouds of negative flame, too?

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Post Wednesday, 23rd September 2015, 19:08

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

I also think ghostly flame could be confusing, but I don't think ghostly mist conveys the idea that you don't want to step in it. The game prompts you while stepping in it, but if you are already in it, it's not obvious that you want to get out. A player could think it is just flavour.

I don't think cloud of negative energy is comparable. The name wants me to get out, since "negative energy" probably does negative work on me :P

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Post Wednesday, 23rd September 2015, 20:55

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

why wouldn't ghostly energy do ghostly work on you

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Post Wednesday, 23rd September 2015, 21:44

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

How are ghostly flame clouds any different from negative energy clouds? Spawning spectral things? Any reason not to make all negative energy clouds spawn those and pass on their name?
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Post Thursday, 24th September 2015, 00:59

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

What if rF gave hellfire resistance the same way that rN resists torment?

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Post Thursday, 24th September 2015, 01:55

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

duvessa wrote:why wouldn't ghostly energy do ghostly work on you

I thought we were discussing ghostly mist, not ghostly energy (whatever that means).

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Post Thursday, 24th September 2015, 08:20

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

tedric wrote:and then Dith hates...heat? light? the way that's flavored also suffers from this whole issue


dith should hate light, right? i mean he is god of darkness. if you took this to its logical conclusion i guess he'd have to deprecate all lightning spells, plus corona and dazzling spray and probably some others i'm forgetting

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Post Thursday, 24th September 2015, 11:31

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

It worked that way for a while, but it was a complicated list to remember. Fire is clearer.

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Post Thursday, 24th September 2015, 11:44

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Change resist fire to 'resist red' and make hellfire flames purple so they look really different

This way you have your key resistances very clear:

rRed+++
rBlue+++
rBlack+++
rLight Blue+
rGreen+
rPuke+
And for undead characters, Yellow vulnerable. Recolor a couple sprites here and there (jellies for instance should be puke) and we're golden.

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Post Thursday, 24th September 2015, 17:43

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Vapors.

You never want to stand around in vapors.

Or fumes for that matter.

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Post Thursday, 24th September 2015, 18:13

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

jejorda2 wrote:Fire is clearer.

...this entire thread notwithstanding
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Post Thursday, 24th September 2015, 18:43

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Years ago I thought hellfire was the scariest thing in crawl because even with rf+++ it did lots of damage. I was super duper scared of facing it without any rf at all (i probably complained about this subject in one of my first tavern posts ever on an ooollld account)!

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Post Thursday, 24th September 2015, 20:35

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

hellfire = brimstone.

I think this may have previously been suggested in an earlier thread with the same subject, and still think it's better than any of the other suggestions so far.

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Post Thursday, 24th September 2015, 21:13

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

The ghost crab breathes a cloud of chlorine gas. You feel bad.

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Post Friday, 25th September 2015, 15:23

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Ghosts should make ghost gas.

Anyhow! This discussion makes me wonder a bit: if there are so many kinds of fire-like clouds that it's hard to describe them without <adjective> fire, it's also possible that there too many kinds of fire-like cloud?
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Post Saturday, 26th September 2015, 00:35

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

jejorda2 wrote:It worked that way for a while, but it was a complicated list to remember. Fire is clearer.


i guess clarity is the most important thing, it feels a little 'off' in terms of flavor though

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Post Wednesday, 30th September 2015, 00:58

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

How about "Spectral Cloud of Negative Energy"? "Cloud of Negative Energy" is clear because the game has already established that clouds can do damage and negative energy is a type of damage, so it's pretty intuitive that a cloud of negative energy does negative energy damage. Ghostly flame is also a cloud that does negative energy damage, but has the added effect of spawning specters, so why not just give it a name that clearly reflects that?
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Post Wednesday, 30th September 2015, 04:57

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Hasn't this already been changed to "spectral mist"? Or did I hallucinate that the last time i was standing in a could of it?

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Post Wednesday, 30th September 2015, 22:11

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

I think the one negative flame was already renamed, yes, but there's still blessed fire, hellfire, etc, which should all be renamed if we can just come up with good names. I've definitely wondered about a few of them and what type they were before I looked it up...

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Post Wednesday, 30th September 2015, 22:17

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Well, hellfire isn't a cloud, I would call the effect "brimstone blast" perhaps (maybe we could take the chance to rename the smite differently than the targeted effect call one "brimstone strike" perhaps)

Holy fire I don't have a good name for.
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Post Wednesday, 30th September 2015, 22:51

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Beams of holy light? Or just "holy light"/"holy beam" if we want to keep it shorter. This could work for either an instant attack or a cloud effect - the light beam illuminates the tile continuously. May suffer a bit from not sounding "damaging" enough but imho that's not much of a problem.
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Post Thursday, 1st October 2015, 00:04

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

I vote for "holy crap"

More seriously, is there a good place for this type of bikeshed discussion? GDD and CYC both seem not-quite-right.
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Post Thursday, 1st October 2015, 00:44

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

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Post Thursday, 1st October 2015, 04:28

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

njvack wrote:I vote for "holy crap"

More seriously, is there a good place for this type of bikeshed discussion? GDD and CYC both seem not-quite-right.

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Post Thursday, 1st October 2015, 13:08

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

I don't know about that name. Maybe it should be the Shed of Bikes, or Bikeshed Place?

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Post Thursday, 1st October 2015, 23:52

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

tasonir wrote:I think the one negative flame was already renamed, yes, but there's still blessed fire, hellfire, etc, which should all be renamed if we can just come up with good names. I've definitely wondered about a few of them and what type they were before I looked it up...


Did Ghostly Fireball also get renamed?

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Post Friday, 2nd October 2015, 05:11

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

I suggest Hellfire -> Antimatter.
It sounds badass and resistance penetrating.

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Post Friday, 2nd October 2015, 14:49

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

o eff I thought this thread would be about cultural appropriation
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Post Friday, 2nd October 2015, 14:55

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

well until we have the Shed of Bikes, CYC will do fine.

e: also, despite being Yiuf'd, I still think duvessa's idea is totally reasonable and right.
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Post Friday, 2nd October 2015, 15:10

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

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Post Friday, 2nd October 2015, 18:16

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

reaver wrote:Is there a good word for "thing that hurts you if you keep standing on it"? (other than fire)


How about "my older sister"? I learned when I was about 7 that she hurts me if I keep standing on her.

reaver wrote:"ghostly mist" is an OK name, but I think it wouldn't be obvious that you take damage from standing in it. "ghostly fire" seems like something you don't want to step in.


Oh, if we want something you don't want to step in, I was thinking that "ghostly dogshit" seemed about right, then I saw njvack's suggestion of "holy crap", which is probably better.

(please do not make the mistake of taking this post seriously in any way, shape, or form)

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Post Friday, 2nd October 2015, 23:25

Re: stop calling things "fire" when they aren't fire

Ghosts are restless, anxious, and without repose. Spooky, beset, transient. Harrowing. Aggravating?

Could an eerie gloom replace ghostly flame? A vexing disturbance? A harrowing atmosphere? Anxious ambiance?

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