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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
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Sar wrote:greedo wrote:For example, I just finished a FeCj with 3 beef jerkies in inventory.
how did you even manage that? cats have built-in gourmand
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yesno wrote:dynast wrote:You dont know? You want the game to have a clock but not gonna take into considerantion the infinite branches and their infinite source of food? what about necromutation, or gozag?
perhaps if you considered compromise a worthwhile concept you might offer some suggestions for these difficulties rather than demand i immediately draw up a full plan for you
greedo wrote:The problem with having a "strong" hunger drive, or other variations like removing just removing chunks but adding more permafood, or other alternatives to food, is that races and characters have a high variability in their need for food. Consider what a troll would go through in a chunkless crawl, they have what, 3 times the hunger?
dynast wrote:some people have different pacing so you need a window that everybody will narrowly fit through otherwise its trivial or punishing, and i have no idea how you gonna do that.
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greedo wrote:There's also the fact that crawl has exactly one difficulty setting, and making a clock system that is challenging for new players without killing them but still existing as a motivation push for advanced players is not possible.
greedo wrote:Throw in the race variation, and it becomes silly.
mps wrote:@duvessa: I'm willing to believe this 5-scumming stuff was a thing before .6, but there is little to suggest that hunger prevents it in current/recent crawl. This says to me that if it's a worthwhile thing to do, people would be doing it and I'd be seeing it and/or hearing about it.
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duvessa wrote:alternatively, you could let the players who are bad at the game either get better, or losedynast wrote:some people have different pacing so you need a window that everybody will narrowly fit through otherwise its trivial or punishing, and i have no idea how you gonna do that.
dynast wrote:duvessa wrote:alternatively, you could let the players who are bad at the game either get better, or losedynast wrote:some people have different pacing so you need a window that everybody will narrowly fit through otherwise its trivial or punishing, and i have no idea how you gonna do that.
And that makes the game better how again?
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duvessa wrote:games where player skill doesn't affect performance are often considered boring
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greedo wrote:Removing chunks will basically force people into playing some stupid "optimal" playstyle built around food if it matters, and if doesn't matter, than why have food in the first place.
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ontoclasm wrote:greedo wrote:Removing chunks will basically force people into playing some stupid "optimal" playstyle built around food if it matters, and if doesn't matter, than why have food in the first place.
This is absolutely not true. There is a spectrum here -- the point of a clock is to make you play above a certain speed or die, but the speed in question can be adjusted. On the one end, you need to move so fast that only a highly-skilled speedrunner diving as fast as possible could make it. On the other, you can sit around for tens of thousands of turns doing literally nothing and be in no danger whatsoever (as is currently the case in Crawl). Both of those extremes suck... but they are extremes! A setting somewhere in the middle, where you have a reasonable amount of time to do stuff, but can't just sit around for ages and ages, is both possible and good for the game.
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dynast wrote:yesno wrote:dynast wrote:You dont know? You want the game to have a clock but not gonna take into considerantion the infinite branches and their infinite source of food? what about necromutation, or gozag?
perhaps if you considered compromise a worthwhile concept you might offer some suggestions for these difficulties rather than demand i immediately draw up a full plan for you
Here is the problem of not putting any thought on your ideas, now other people have to think for you.
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ontoclasm wrote:A setting somewhere in the middle, where you have a reasonable amount of time to do stuff, but can't just sit around for ages and ages, is both possible and good for the game.
yesno wrote:you are plainly more interested in venting your hostility and frustration (with a COMPUTER GAME) than having a reasonable discussion with me. i think i've talked to you enough. hope this thread comes to a viable resolution that pleases at least most players.
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acvar wrote:Hurkyl wrote:Ignorance is bliss. A nontrivial percentage of the people who aren't idiots and actually recognize that torturing yourself is better play will have their experience ruined simply by that knowledge, even if they don't torture themselves at all.
Triply so in any venue where people compare their performance with others'. (or sometimes even comparing against their prior performance)
Sorry, but I play games to have fun. The most optimal way to play is the way that gives me the most enjoyment.
As far as comparing yourself to others and yourself since turncount is part of score this is just not a problem.
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Hurkyl wrote:But crawl is at least trying to target people like myself who derive enjoyment out of playing well. In fact, it's mildly inconceivable that a roguelike wouldn't try to target this group.
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kuniqs wrote:To be honest I've heard about the one DoomRL cheap trick they hate on this forum for the first time, and I've been playing DoomRL for years. So yeah, maybe worrying about this happening in crawl is a fool's errand.
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mps wrote:Hurkyl wrote:But crawl is at least trying to target people like myself who derive enjoyment out of playing well. In fact, it's mildly inconceivable that a roguelike wouldn't try to target this group.
There are basically two tendencies in the roguelike audience: There's the people who believe in computer roleplaying and favor simulation-y "realism" with baroque mechanics and there's people who think of games as rules simulators and prize purity of gameplay. It's like Uma Thurman's line about Elvis people and Beatles people -- you can like both, but somewhere along the line you have to make a choice.
I put myself in the latter camp.
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archaeo wrote:See, this is why I said 150+ posts ago that we've probably had all the reasonable discussion there is to be had re: hunger. Because now we're talking about "what makes roguelikes fun" instead.
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Sprucery wrote:A good start would be imo to 1) goldify chunks (no inventory slot) and 2) make occasionally some chunks automatically appear in your inventory when you kill a corpse-leaving monster (no picking up chunks).
This would solve the butchering and inventory management aspects of chunks. These are the tedious aspects of hunger and food in Crawl to me, personally, and I assume that this would be a quite easily implementable solution. And I don't think it would affect game balance a whole lot.
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yesno wrote:i don't really care about the scummers, i just want food to become scarcer and apply pressure to even normal players who may have gotten used to resting to full hp/mp after every fight.
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which is why the only reasonable compromise solution is some kind of permafood-only-no-hunger-costs Crawl, imo
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@yesno do you want auto-exploring to be harmful to the player?
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