Let Warpers start without Apportation memorized

[Sprucery]

I propose that Warpers should start with no spells memorized. I think Blink and Shroud are more important to get early than Apportation. Saving that one spell level from Apportation would be useful.

And anyone who wants it could still memorize Apportation immediately.

[byrel]

Quite bluntly, I don't find apportation useful early on. There are theoretical uses (especially if you don't auto-explore) but it's just too tedious to apport everything I want to pick up.

[njvack]

... why do the book starts come with the first spell pre-memorized, anyhow?

[Sar]

Because for all the other backgrounds you do want to memorize the spell anyway?

[Siegurt]

I propose that Warpers should start with no spells memorized. I think Blink and Shroud are more important to get early than Apportation. Saving that one spell level from Apportation would be useful.

And anyone who wants it could still memorize Apportation immediately.

I counter propose that shroud and apprtation switch places, meaning warpers would have an acutally useful level 1 spell (or that some other relevant level 1 translocation spell be invented to replace it)

It really isn't very useful in the starting spellbook, and the fact that it is level 1 is almost never relevant, it isn't something you need to spam, and you only rarely need it, and almost never need it to be super reliable at low spell power.

[onget]

Apportation is only useful in the rune(and orb) vault and the abyss

[Siegurt]

It is also occasionally useful to retrieve uncommon ammo (say you have two curare needles) but not often.

It also let's you get items without getting into los of nasties, and get stuff without revealing more black tiles.

[onget]

new idea: apportation the equipment of enemy

[Sandman25]

Apportation is optimal on every level because you don't want to enter tiles with potential traps. Also for speedrunning I guess.

[Sprucery]

Occasionally you can find a vault where some item is behind 4 permanent teleport traps or something like that. Doesn't justify having Apportation pre-memorized. It is sometimes useful, as Siegurt described. My warpers would probably learn it at some point anyway.

I'm ok with inventing another, more useful level 1 translocation, but let's not go back to Twist.

Apportation is optimal on every level because you don't want to enter tiles with potential traps. Also for speedrunning I guess.

I guess this means that the spell should be removed (unless traps are first :))

[Sandman25]

I guess this means that the spell should be removed (unless traps are first )

Yes, the spell makes me unhappy because I have weird choice:
1) Play optimally for score/piety/food and spam Apportation which is not exactly user-friendly when you have many tiles with items in LoS. Much real time is wasted.
2) Use autoexplore and suffer from decreases in score/piety/food, also traps. Real time is saved though.

Also Haste+Apportation combo is boring, CBlink is at least level 7 and there is no wand of CBlink with plenty of scrolls of recharging.

[byrel]

So why is apportation a level 1 spell anyhow? All non-grindy uses would justify picking it up as a level 3 or something... And for runes, it really is (or can be) a lifesaver.

[Rast]

There aren't really any fair uses of it left. Just remove it already.

[Siegurt]

There aren't really any fair uses of it left. Just remove it already.

Do you disagree that the two I mention upthread are fair uses? (I think the are not common uses, but are fair)

[duvessa]

There were never "fair" uses of apportation. It's always been the spell of simultaneously making picking up items much better, and breaking the interface. For a while now it's also been the spell of having a bizarre special case for 1 item out of the 500 different items in the game.

[archaeo]

I mean, it's a special case, but I'm not sure that "the object that lets you win the game reacts differently than other objects" is really terrible game design.

That said, I'm totally neutral w/r/t apportation. It's a goofy situational spell that I memorize on every non-Trog character that finds it, but I also have a fair amount of affection for sneaking around and snatching runes. It's probably "correct" to remove it, or replace it with something else.

[Siegurt]

There were never "fair" uses of apportation. It's always been the spell of simultaneously making picking up items much better, and breaking the interface. For a while now it's also been the spell of having a bizarre special case for 1 item out of the 500 different items in the game.

I disagree, I think the fair uses comprise about 1% of cases, but I don't think there are no fair uses at all.

[Sprucery]

I don't mind if it goes away totally, but I have a fond memory of snatching the barnacled rune when I entered Shoals:5 for the first time ever and was immediately in view of the rune vault. Apport, back upstairs and Ilsuiw with her friends were left for later. I guess if the best use of the spell is snatching runes it shouldn't be level 1, as byrel indicated.

[asdu]

Great, after cTele, another nerf to speedrunners.

First they came for the mountain dwarves, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a mountain dwarf.
Then they came for the casters, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a caster.
Then they came for the speedrunners, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a speedrunner.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me

(seriously, though, please leave apportation alone)

[Wahaha]

90% of my apportation uses is to pick up items from out of enemy LOS. Often statues, but sometimes sleeping ogres or uniques. This is a fair use.

[Siegurt]

90% of my apportation uses is to pick up items from out of enemy LOS. Often statues, but sometimes sleeping ogres or uniques. This is a fair use.

Personally, I agree that this is fair use, I think it would also be just fine if it cost 2-5mp instead of 1, and/or just didn't appear in a starting book

[Berder]

I think it was Bloaxor who proposed that there be a level 5 spell "mass apportation" that apports every item in LOS. This would be a lot more convenient for retrieving ammo. If this spell were added, then apportation removed, that would be nice.

[archaeo]

Or how about a level 5 spell that draws in all items but also pulls in monsters?

I'm just spitballing, I have no idea how you "save" apportation.

[Berder]

Or how about a level 5 spell, "Mass Apportation," that apports all items in LOS. Your wording dismisses it without giving any reason.

[Sandman25]

90% of my apportation uses is to pick up items from out of enemy LOS. Often statues, but sometimes sleeping ogres or uniques. This is a fair use.

Especially statues make it clear that such use is unfair. What's the point in putting a loot defender if you ignore it completely? It does not require stealth, magic skill or even light armour as you can put off that plate armour, apport the item with 0 Translocations and put on the plate armour back.

[archaeo]

Or how about a level 5 spell, "Mass Apportation," that apports all items in LOS. Your wording dismisses it without giving any reason.

I mean, we've talked about this a couple of times at least, and the only time I found "mass apportation" in the ##crawl-dev logs was a short conversation where both dpeg and gammafunk dismissed it. Though I like duvessa's idea of just making tornado act like mass apportation!

I guess if you want more reasons than that, I think it really doesn't solve any of the problems people mention above, it just makes them marginally more expensive to recreate. I say "marginally" because tloc is one of the best schools and this change would just mean you get to pick up spells like blink, passage, and phase shift on your way to the "I don't have to walk all the way to runes ever again" spell.

[Berder]

I guess if you want more reasons than that,

More reasons than what? The fact that there were two threads discussing it in the past, proving it's a popular idea? Or the fact that dpeg/gammafunk allegedly didn't like it in a brief conversation, for reasons unspecified, and in an unspecified context? Those aren't reasons! "Oh, some authority doesn't seem to like it, therefore I must also reject it." Ugh.

I think it really doesn't solve any of the problems people mention above,

Let me correct you there, because it does solve most of the problems mentioned above. The first problem mentioned above that it solves is the interface problem:

spam Apportation which is not exactly user-friendly when you have many tiles with items in LoS. Much real time is wasted

It's always been the spell of simultaneously making picking up items much better, and breaking the interface

It solves the tedious interface problem of selecting which item to apport. It apports all of them, so solved. Then when you pick it up you can just use the letter, instead of cycling through the items.

The second problem it solves that was mentioned above is:

Apportation is optimal on every level because you don't want to enter tiles with potential traps. Also for speedrunning I guess.

The spell is now level 5, so there's no question of optimally using it in the early dungeon since it's not available. Later on in the game it carries a significant MP cost, so you wouldn't want to use it constantly unless there are a lot of items to pick up, again eliminating this tedious optimal play.

The third problem mentioned above that it solves is:

Apportation is only useful in the rune(and orb) vault and the abyss

Mass Apportation is also useful for ammo pickup with ranged characters - much more useful than regular Apportation because it's more mp efficient and takes only a single turn.

The fourth problem mentioned above is the spell level:

So why is apportation a level 1 spell anyhow? All non-grindy uses would justify picking it up as a level 3 or something... And for runes, it really is (or can be) a lifesaver.

I think it would also be just fine if it cost 2-5mp instead of 1, and/or just didn't appear in a starting book

Making it be level 5 is in accordance with these suggestions.

[archaeo]

I just observed that your idea has been brought up twice on GDD without any action taken by devs, who presumably would've added it to the game if they thought it was a good idea. Then, because I think it's rude to just quote from logs, I summarized what I found, which is that the only time it was mentioned by devs was to dismiss it as a serious idea; I figured that you can probably use the Internet well enough to find it for yourself if you wanted to know. And then I said it didn't do much about the problems noted above, mostly in reference to Rast and the part of duvessa's comment you didn't quote, which have a lot more to do with the concept of apportation regardless of level or size of effect.

But you're right, I'm just blindly following "authority," obviously. I mean, I am well known for always agreeing with dpeg and gammafunk.

[mps]

Mass apportation or some comparable effect, e.g. aura of apportation, should be added. That's all I have to say about that.

The OP is correct about apportation. The reason book backgrounds start with a level one spell memorized is that it's often their only or at least their optimal means of attack and monsters can generate within sight of the entrance, sometimes very close to it. You don't always have time to memorize before your first fight and even if you did, it would be annoying to do it manually every game, since forgetting would often be a death sentence. Apportation doesn't have that problem.

[archaeo]

Mass apportation or some comparable effect, e.g. aura of apportation, should be added. That's all I have to say about that.

Weren't you just complaining about a "tendency toward ignoring the actual problem, trying to solve a tangentially related one instead"? The answer to "ammo sucks to pick up" isn't "mass apportation," it's fixing ammo. This applies to basically anything mass apportation would be a solution for; if picking up items from the floor sucks so much, we should probably look at that instead of creating a silly spell that picks up items for us.

Apportation as it exists now doesn't bother me that much, fwiw. It just also seems like the kind of spell the devs have been culling slowly for nearly a decade.

[bcadren]

My responses to all the points in this thread:

1. The issue with "Mass Apportation" is it degrades the point of ammo to an extreme. Any non-troglodyte caster would just get it online and effectively have 10x normal ammo.
2. I'd keep apportation as it is; but starting without spells memorized so the player gets to choose how they use their early spell levels is cool. FeNe starts with nothing memorized; all backgrounds doing that is cool. It wouldn't negatively effect anyone unless they start with monsters in their LoS, which is rare and then the effect is -1 turn to memorize.
3. A different Level 1 that actually has more tactical use in early game. I actually proposed this before myself. My version was a "disarm" spell that just removes the target's weapon after a check (HD or MR). Since I proposed that though:
   • I think it may be too powerful for level 1.
   • Now that new tukima's is a thing (it wasn't then); it's probably too similar to Tukima's.
4. Other than that; I just don't know what would fit the Translo theme and be weaker than blink and tactically unique. Force push without the damage part? It's just...yea there's not much design space there.

[mps]

Apportation is deeply ingrained in the tactics of rune and orb collection, i.e. parts of the game that are actually good. I don't think they have a history of dumbing down rune and orb collection, just cutting out goofy/cheezy tactics, e.g. apport the orb to the stairs.

As for mass apportation, there are situations where you want to get a lot of items with apportation, quickly, but apportation is slow and fiddly. It's not just about ammo. I agree, they should just introduce the ammo returning mechanics I proposed some months ago. The ability to quickly collect loot from vaults would add tactical depth to the game. Anything that gives you options that don't involve killing everything you meet would be embarking on "unexplored design space."

. . .

re: bcadren, whatever the point of ammo in crawl is, it's already been degraded to the extreme.

[Berder]

My responses to all the points in this thread:

The issue with "Mass Apportation" is it degrades the point of ammo to an extreme. Any non-troglodyte caster would just get it online and effectively have 10x normal ammo.

By the time you're thinking of getting a level 5 Translocations support spell, you're at the stage in the game when you have more than enough ammo for any individual fight. 200 arrows. 1000 arrows. Running out of ammo within a single fight is not a concern.

• A different Level 1 that actually has more tactical use in early game. I actually proposed this before myself. My version was a "disarm" spell that just removes the target's weapon after a check (HD or MR). Since I proposed that though:
  • I think it may be too powerful for level 1.
  • Now that new tukima's is a thing (it wasn't then); it's probably too similar to Tukima's.
• Other than that; I just don't know what would fit the Translo theme and be weaker than blink and tactically unique. Force push without the damage part? It's just...yea there's not much design space there.

Yeah, your idea would be decent except for the similarity to Tukima's.

How about just making Teleport Other be level 1? It's such a useless spell otherwise but it could be useful on d:1. It would make warper start be actually strong. Or if a strong warper background is simply inconceivable, have it be Blink Other.

[Hurkyl]

90% of my apportation uses is to pick up items from out of enemy LOS. Often statues, but sometimes sleeping ogres or uniques. This is a fair use.

Especially statues make it clear that such use is unfair. What's the point in putting a loot defender if you ignore it completely? It does not require stealth, magic skill or even light armour as you can put off that plate armour, apport the item with 0 Translocations and put on the plate armour back.

"Overcome a challenge" doesn't have to be synonymous with killing a monster. And circumventing the monster is not ignoring it. Besides, if you really wanted players to face the defender even with apport, you can arrange vaults to require it. e.g. put the statue in front of the loot, so that it has to be in LOS if you want to apport. Or have the defender block you from even getting in LOS of the loot. (but with clear walls so you can know its there)

Even without apport, there are a few places where there are statue obstacles that you can still bypass in other ways; e.g. using a wand of digging to go around, or fast move speed / blinking to rush past, or teleport to skip by. (e.g. I've used all three methods to bypass ice statues in various ice caves)

[Sandman25]

"Overcome a challenge" doesn't have to be synonymous with killing a monster. And circumventing the monster is not ignoring it. Besides, if you really wanted players to face the defender even with apport, you can arrange vaults to require it. e.g. put the statue in front of the loot, so that it has to be in LOS if you want to apport. Or have the defender block you from even getting in LOS of the loot. (but with clear walls so you can know its there)

Even without apport, there are a few places where there are statue obstacles that you can still bypass in other ways; e.g. using a wand of digging to go around, or fast move speed / blinking to rush past, or teleport to skip by. (e.g. I've used all three methods to bypass ice statues in various ice caves)

Oh, yes, it takes extreme playing skill to learn a spell and cast it with Translocations 0. Unlike digging, fast move speed or blinking it is unlimited and risk-free resource available to all species. Were lucky to find a book with Apportation? Here is your loot, enjoy. I liked how you put "overcome a challenge" in quotes

[mps]

And what's this about letting players just pick stuff up off the ground? Talk about no-skill moves. The devs were just like "Hey buddy, can you press 'g'? No? How about ','? Well then you get a free item! Would you like a glass of milk to go with it??"

[bel]

I agree with OP. There is really no good reason for Wr to start with apportation memorized. It doesn't help them kill anything, and is not really a no-brainer early on like other L1 spells.

As to the wider discussion. I am kind of neutral about it. It does make it easier to ninja stuff, that's basically it. But why should such a spell not exist in the game? The MP is basically irrelevant. You are not going to care about 5 MP when you are ninjaing a rune. The level will make it harder to learn. I don't know actually whether that is a good or bad thing. Probably good, because now, it is a no-brainer.

[mps]

It's not a no-brainer. Worshippers of the best god can't use it. I'm really amazed there's controversy about the position of apportation in the game. Totally bizarre reasoning behind the controversy too... ugh.

[bel]

Yeah, I ignored Trog. But that is understood in any discussion of magic.

[mps]

No it isn't. What are you talking about?

Trog is the single most important analytic point in any discussion of magic in crawl. You can never talk as if a spell is free, because if you have it, it means you didn't go Trog.

[bel]

wtf

I thought it was obvious that I meant: "If you are a non-trog character and you find a book with apportation (and you have enough spell levels and all sorts of obvious caveats) it is a no-brainer to get it". Consider it so amended.

[Sandman25]

No it isn't. What are you talking about?

Trog is the single most important analytic point in any discussion of magic in crawl. You can never talk as if a spell is free, because if you have it, it means you didn't go Trog.

So you are saying "Let's make Fire Storm level 1 because the best god in the game cannot use it", right? Apportation is too powerful for level 1 spell (not IMHO, it's a fact), it should be level 4-5 IMHO. Also this would solve problems "spam apportation instead of picking items naturally" and "apport the rune and teleport away".
I remember how I was ninjaing the orb when I forgot to learn Apportation, the difference was huge.

[mps]

Let's take a step back now, sandman. Let me ask you: If fire storm were a level 1 spell, do you think Trog would still be the best god in the game?

[Sandman25]

Let's take a step back now, sandman. Let me ask you: If fire storm were a level 1 spell, do you think Trog would still be the best god in the game?

Of course not, Apportation is not as powerful as Fire Storm. I was just trying to show you that Trog is irrelevant when discussing power of spells, Trog does not justify spells being lower level than they really deserve (Apportation should not be level 1 spell when it deserves level 4-5 despite explanation "It's fine for Apportation to be that low level because you cannot use it with Trog"). In other words, "Trog is the single most important analytic point in any discussion of magic in crawl." is absolutely wrong.

[mps]

The poster above was claiming apportation is a no-brainer. It is not, not even on a warper. Indeed, especially not on a warper because more than any other character, warpers are often faced with a choice between trog and apportation (along with some other good spells) and the better choice is frequently trog.

As is characteristic of your posting style, you posed a crazy counterfactual that would completely break the game. I'm not interested in discussing fantasy crawl. I'm only interested in discussing reasonable variations on the existing game.

Now if radical changes made magic a lot better, for example if all conjurations had their spell levels reduced by 1 or if summons still worked the way they used to, Trog wouldn't be as important a consideration because magic would be clearly better than Trog in a lot of cases. That's not the game we're working with, though, and it's certainly not the game we'd have if apportation were removed or equivalently increased to level 5.

Anyway, no one's made a reasonable argument for changing apportation except for the OP's suggestion about warpers, so I don't think there's anything to discuss here.

[Sandman25]

I'm only interested in discussing reasonable variations on the existing game.

I see, you are arguing for the point of arguing, I am not interested in such discussions either. If Trog made your character literally unkillable, you would play Be only and would not call level 1 Fire Storm no-brainer. Ok, your point is clear, please remind me to avoid discussions with you next time. "Variations"

[mps]

Yeah, this exchange reminds me of the time you tried to get me to consider a situation where OOFs have twice as much hp, as though that's an interesting point to discuss in relation to anything. I'm sorry to hear you think such suggestions are so integral to your method of argument that you can't talk with anyone who doesn't accept them, but w/e.

[Berder]

So, mps, you want apportation to stay in the Wr book because you don't think it's overpowered. You prove it's not overpowered by comparison to a Trog character.

That's correct as far as it goes but the main reason apportation is bad in the Wr book and bad to have memorized at the start, is because it's underpowered. It may be technically optimal to use throughout the game, and it's certainly useful for rune ninja, but at XL1 it doesn't do a lot to help the character survive.

[bel]

Does mps's "poster above" refer to me? If so, I already said, consider my amended statement. What is wrong with it? Sorry if I didn't spell it out in the first post, but it seemed the obvious interpretation to me.

[byrel]

As is characteristic of your posting style, you posed a crazy counterfactual that would completely break the game.

the time you tried to get me to consider a situation where OOFs have twice as much hp, as though that's an interesting point to discuss in relation to anything.

Let me ask you: If fire storm were a level 1 spell, do you think Trog would still be the best god in the game?

Whut?! Firestorm being level 1 is less counterfactual than a double HP OoF?