Reavers


Although the central place for this kind of discussion is on the CDO wiki, some may find it helpful to discuss potential requests and suggestions here first.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 08:57

Reavers

Now that conjurers are no longer getting a choice of books, and are being redesigned based around air/ice/poison spells, I wonder if it would be feasible to bring back reavers, with a book focussed on fire/earth conjurations and combat buffs.

Here is my idea for a starting book "The Book of Reaving"

Magic Dart,Fire Brand, Stoneskin, Stone Arrow, Sticky Flame, Bolt of Magma.

Maybe including Stoneskin would make the range of magic schools too diverse - I thought about adding Throw Flame or Conjure Flame, but wanted to reduce overlap with the Fire Elementalist's book.

It would be great if it could include Ring of Flames, but at Level 7 that's too much for a starting book. I do actually think it should probably be a lower level however, as it does seem a bit weak for a level 7 spell with 2 schools that don't have much synergy elsewhere.

Edit: on thinking about it a bit more, I think Stokeskin would have to go, and Throw Flame be included instead, as there probably needs to be another low level conjuration in there to make training to Sticky Flame etc more palatable.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 09:21

Re: Reavers

Jeremiah wrote:Now that conjurers are no longer getting a choice of books, and are being redesigned based around air/ice/poison spells, I wonder if it would be feasible to bring back reavers, with a book focussed on fire/earth conjurations and combat buffs.

This is indeed the perfect place to bring back Reavers.

Jeremiah wrote:Here is my idea for a starting book "The Book of Reaving"

Magic Dart,Fire Brand, Stoneskin, Stone Arrow, Sticky Flame, Bolt of Magma.

First, the book name is terrible. Reaver doesn't mean much, but it sounds cool. Reaving doesn't mean anything and sounds awful (at least to my french ears). Conjure Flame has just been replaced in the FE book, so it could perfectly fit in here, especially since it has a good synergy with melee. I'd replace Bolt of Magma (which is now in the book of flames) by conjure flame. Since it's a hybrid background, it can stick with low level spells. Ring of flame isn't weak by the way (it used to be L8) and certainly don't fit in a starting book.
There's already a wiki page about Reavers. I think it looks better than all the proposal there (including my own :)). Once it's been brainstormed a bit here, add it to the wiki.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 09:52

Re: Reavers

About the choice of book name:

According to wiktionary, the verb "reave" means either plunder/pillage/rob, or split/tear/break apart, and is related to "bereave."

I assumed the name of the background came from the second meaning, and derived the book name from the same idea. I thought it was quite appropriate for a destructive background/book, but I'm sure a better name can be thought of if people don't like it.

About Ring of Flames (maybe this should be in a different topic.)

This spell seems to work best as a melee enhancer, but to get it castable and also have enough fighting to be able to survive in melee and make use of it requires so much investment in the relevant skills that by the time you can use it, you're almost at the post-endgame, where its usefulness has passed as the damage is not enough, many things resist fire, and the rC-- is probably too dangerous.

I recently played a character specifically designed to use Ring of Flames, and found that although it was usable in Vault 8 and Zot, I quickly forgot it in favour of more useful things. While it is nice, and also interesting (one of the few non-conjuration fire spells,) it isn't better than Haste, and also compares unfavourably with other spells of similar level (notably OOD and Controlled Blink.) I did find it more useful than Conjure Ball Lightning, however (another possibly underpowered level 7 spell?)
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 10:12

Re: Reavers

Fine, so it does have a meaning, that's just me being illiterate :oops:
I still think that "book of reaving" sounds awful, but maybe that's just me. Anyway, the book content is good. Replace Bolt of Magma by conjure flame and it is great.

I think the main point of Ring of Flame is to be used in conjunction with Fire Storm. I'm not sure about it's usefulness on its own.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 10:19

Re: Reavers

The Book of Assisted Destruction? The Book of Fiery Destruction?
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 10:26

Re: Reavers

If it had Bolt of Magma, it could have been "Book of the Volcano" but without it, it doesn't seem volcanic enough.

Still, I agree Conjure Flame is probably a better fit, especially if it is no longer in the FE's book.

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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 11:26

Re: Reavers

The idea of a melee char supported with some buffs and offensive spells sounds nice. Especially with tactical spells like conjure flame thrown in. And new sticky flame is just perfect for this. Definitely liking the book, but with stoneskin replaced by throw flame and bolt of magma by conjure flame, stone arrow would be the only earth spell.

Book of Fiery Destruction sounds fun, but a little over the top in my opinion. I would expect Firestorm and Ring of Flames in a book with that name, not magic dart.

Assisted Destruction just sounds weird.

Book of Heat? Doesn't really fit with Stone Arrow or Stoneskin, but it would definitely be hard to find a name that covers both earth and fire (for a book without bolt of magma, otherwise volcano or magma are very fitting). It might be better to go for a name focusing on the supportive/tactical nature of some of the spells and the melee aspect, but I cant think of anything at the moment.

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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 11:49

Re: Reavers

If it's meant to be a fire/earth based background, it would be better to have more than one earth spell, but I think the problem with my original book suggestion (with Stoneskin but without Throw Flame) is that you end up with two level 2 spells, neither of which have any schools in common with each other or with your level 1 spell. So it becomes hard to train them, and also hard to decide what starting skills to give the background.

I wonder if it would be too much to give them Stoneskin and Throw Flame, eg:

Magic Dart, Throw Flame, Fire Brand, Stoneskin, Stone Arrow, Conjure Flame, Sticky Flame.

But is that too many spells for a hybrid's starting book? If so, maybe even Sticky Flame could be removed, though that might make it too weak.

That way, your starting skills could have conjurations as the only magic school, and by training that you could get to cast Throw Flame, which would give you the fire magic you need for Fire Brand etc. Stoneskin does still seem like the odd one out, but it probably would not be very useful until later in the game anyway when you had more earth magic, which could be gained through using the conj/earth Stone Arrow.

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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 11:59

Re: Reavers

I think stoneskin is a must somehow, It seems to fit the hybrid class perfectly, and goes along with a 'volcanic' theme. However, I think 'The Book of Reaving' is perfectly sensible and isn't an odd English word really. I wouldn't use it in everyday conversation, but it makes sense and I could guess at a sort of flaming/cutting/killing type of thing, even if I didn't know exactly what a Reaving was. Reaving sounds also 'sounds cool', and as that seems to be what we're basing names on these days, I think Reaving is fine.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 12:05

Re: Reavers

Book of Battle?

Edit: And what about Flame Tongue instead of Magic Dart. That would some give synergy with Fire Brand on Level 2, but would push it back towards overlap with Fire Elementalists.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 12:12

Re: Reavers

the high point of the reaver book should be the sticky flame spell, which could be removed from the FE book. i know it's a staple, but it's a touch spell now and fire magic needs an overhaul anyway. there are good ideas in the wiki (fireball could be level 5, freezing cloud could be removed in favor of an equivalent conj/fire/air spell, the range for many conjurations could be swapped for their counterparts in ice magic, etc). or the new spell (inner flame) could fill the gap if it's made strong enough.

i actually like conjure flame in the FE book rather than the reaver book, because it has more of a use at a distance (defensive: block a corridor and run; offensive: block a corridor and blast away) than at range 1, at least in the early game.

edit: i don't think it's too bad, but the division as it stands now is a bit of a mess (for instance, both backgrounds have plenty of conjurations and both have a single hex).
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 12:24

Re: Reavers

I don't think it needs throw flame. Magic Dart and Fire Brand are enough to train conj and fire. Stoneskin does make sense here but it might be tricky to get it castable. Maybe if it starts with 2 levels of earth that would be enough. Skalds used to start with only 2 levels in charms (it now has 3) and only dual school L2 spells.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 12:26

Re: Reavers

absolutego wrote:fire magic needs an overhaul anyway.

There are adjustments to be made (always?), but I don't think we're at the point where we can say that it needs an overhaul.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 12:42

Re: Reavers

Maybe if it starts with 2 levels of earth that would be enough.

+1, Think this would be a really good way to get it usable, I'd definitely like to have it in the starting book, unless a fire type armour defence spell (not ring of flames) could be made (as there is ozzys for ice and stoneskin for earth).
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 12:45

Re: Reavers

galehar wrote:There are adjustments to be made (always?), but I don't think we're at the point where we can say that it needs an overhaul.


you really want to spend the day arguing semantics, don't you? :D
simply making fireball level 5 and swapping ranges with ice conjurations would be significant, and that's hardly a lot of work. as has been said before fire magic is all about killing stuff, and should be better at it than the other elemental schools. (unless it changed recently ice elementalists start with throw icicle and freezing cloud.) the link to the wiki, for whomever wants a look.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 12:59

Re: Reavers

What I think might need an overhaul, or at least an overall evaluation, is which spells are in which books, which books are given by the gods (particularly Vehumet), and how this affects the overall difficulty of finding a particular spell.

For example - with Book of Conjurations now only being ice/air based, does this mean Vehumet does not grant worshippers any fire spells apart from Fire Storm? This would seem a little out of place for the god of destructive magic.

By the way, what are the current spells in Book of Flames now Conjure Flame has been removed?
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 13:10

Re: Reavers

Jeremiah wrote:What I think might need an overhaul, or at least an overall evaluation, is which spells are in which books, which books are given by the gods (particularly Vehumet), and how this affects the overall difficulty of finding a particular spell.

There are constant adjustments, especially since MarvinPA has joined the team. Whether it has been an overhaul or many adjustments doesn't matter. He has done a lot to rebalance starting books and backgrounds.

Jeremiah wrote:For example - with Book of Conjurations now only being ice/air based, does this mean Vehumet does not grant worshippers any fire spells apart from Fire Storm? This would seem a little out of place for the god of destructive magic.

Good point. Fire Storm is indeed the only fire spell gifted by Vehumet right now.

Jeremiah wrote:By the way, what are the current spells in Book of Flames now Conjure Flame has been removed?


  Code:
 a - Flame Tongue                 Conjuration/Fire              1
 b - Throw Flame                  Conjuration/Fire              2
 c - Inner Flame                  Hexes/Fire                    3
 d - Sticky Flame                 Conjuration/Fire              4
 e - Bolt of Magma                Conjuration/Fire/Earth        5
 f - Fireball                     Conjuration/Fire              6
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Post Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 13:06

Re: Reavers

RE: Book names -

How about one of these:
Book of Malevolent Arts
Tome of Deadly Magics
Book of Baleful Endowments
Tome of Arcane Assault
Book of Fell Magics

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2011, 18:31

Re: Reavers

I suggest Book of Brimstone. Fire, stone, destruction, and alliteration.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2011, 22:44

Re: Reavers

ElectricAlbatross wrote:I suggest Book of Brimstone. Fire, stone, destruction, and alliteration.

Love it
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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 03:50

Re: Reavers

+1 Brimstone
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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 06:23

Re: Reavers

I used to chose Vehumet to get stone arrow and build up to crystal spear. Now I see no point in ever choosing Vehumet. We need more books with stone arrow now. It would be a dream come true if wizards started with stone arrow instead of slow and call imp. :lol:

I'm joking obviously about wizards starting with stone arrow as the one major weakness of wizards is that you have to find an attack spell yourself and don't start with one.

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 11:17

Re: Reavers

snow wrote:I'm joking obviously about wizards starting with stone arrow as the one major weakness of wizards is that you have to find an attack spell yourself and don't start with one.


The Wizard starting book can clear everything up to and beyond Lair:8 with care and if you really have to. By that point I've usually found (in 90%+ of my games that get that far) a book with at least one of the decent level 3/4 missiles (stone arrow, IMB, icicle) that can potentially carry you all the way to Vault:7. Once you're that far, you are practically guaranteed to have at least one level 9 conjuration available with which you can finish the game. The key spells at that point are Deflect Missiles and/or Haste which are not gifted by Vehumet anyway; if you're looking for guarantees you need Sif, but there are many other ways to build your character to get around that.

Vehumet's books have never seemed that awesome to me and are certainly not the main point of the God! They guarantee certain high-level spells, but I find it extremely rare not to find those books lying around on the floor or at least in shops at some point way before I have any chance of being able to cast them. Vehumet is still awesome just for the increased range and power, and decreased MP costs.

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 11:36

Re: Reavers

+1 to Brimstone
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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 11:40

Re: Reavers

+10 to brimstone :twisted:
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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 12:10

Re: Reavers

galehar wrote:I think the main point of Ring of Flame is to be used in conjunction with Fire Storm. I'm not sure about it's usefulness on its own.


BTW; Ring of Flame is a fantastic spell all on its own. It has a great balance of utility and destruction for a high-level spell. It gives you fire resistance and lets you wander through any flame clouds. It destroys almost anything that gets onto an adjacent tile; just make sure you have room to keep backing away, and preferably haste. The flames last for more than one turn, so as long as you a keep a one or even two tile gap between you and the enemy they'll still get pummeled, without you actually taking any damage. It's great for taking out multiple targets with a single casting. Just a shame it's so rare; it's the one fire spell I seem to find only in a small percentage of games. Maybe that's just luck.

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Post Friday, 14th October 2011, 04:57

Re: Reavers

I'm going to necro this thread in the interests of seeing this Reaver suggestion in the game soon; it's my favorite out of all the Reaver proposals on the wiki (https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... und:reaver). If there's enough of a consensus that this is the Reaver we want, then I'd like to try my hand at writing my first patch to put it in.

If the spellbook goes through as is, I think these starting stats will be a good starting point for testing (mostly adapted from Skald starting stats):
  Code:
Strength: +4
Int:      +4
Dex:      +4
base HP:  13
base MP:  1

Skills:
weapon skill: 2
Fighting:     2
Dodging:      1
Armour:       1
Spellcasting: 2
Conjurations: 1
Fire Magic:   2
Earth Magic:  2


Edit: I'm not sure about the starting skills. I think they should have 2 in their elemental skills, and at least 2 Conjurations so that Magic Dart starts useful, but it seems like it would be too much to have both. Conjurations is at 1 for now, since it is not as essential to Reavers as the elemental skills. This puts them at starting with 13 skill levels total, same as the Warper.

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Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 14th October 2011, 06:11

Re: Reavers

+1 Book of Brimstone, but how about
Warrior's Intro to Brimstone*
*Warrior, Fighter, whatever sounds good
**because there are too many Books of X's, also thematically:
The Player was any average mook going through Okawaru's Excellent Academy of Fighting Technique, but dropped out to pursue their dreams of blowing stuff up; and therefore needs a WARRIOR'S guide to get the hang of magic RAWR!

That alliteration was fun to write XD

Does Fire Elementalist remain competitive against this class?
On one hand sticky flame fits the theme to a tee. On the other, it takes the main attraction away from FE.
Will it have a choice of weapons like before/ if so which?
Definitely no LBL.
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Post Friday, 14th October 2011, 06:34

Re: Reavers

I like the Hexes/Conjurations Reaver the most, personally: yet another elemental-based Conjurer class seems a little boring to me, even if it is in a combination that no other class has.

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Post Monday, 17th October 2011, 23:21

Re: Reavers

I would actually be interested in playing this new reaver. Excellent idea.

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Post Tuesday, 18th October 2011, 17:30

Re: Reavers

Zzz wrote:Does Fire Elementalist remain competitive against this class?
On one hand sticky flame fits the theme to a tee. On the other, it takes the main attraction away from FE.

I would say that FE will remain appealing to players who want to play pure casters. A DERe, for example, would be impractical, whereas a DEFE will remain as awesome as it is today.

Zzz wrote:Will it have a choice of weapons like before/ if so which?

How about just +0 short sword/mace/hand axe/spear, like Skalds and Warpers?
Zzz wrote:Definitely no LBL.

I don't know what LBL is.

nicolae wrote:I like the Hexes/Conjurations Reaver the most, personally: yet another elemental-based Conjurer class seems a little boring to me, even if it is in a combination that no other class has.

I found a concept of a Hex/Conj caster intriguing, but to me the spells on that proposal seem a bit… gimmicky. In addition, the background doesn't seem to have much magic-melee synergy, and looks fine as a pure caster. What I'd like from the Reaver is to blast things with melee and spells in equal measure.

(And implementing new spells is beyond my current knowledge of the code base, so the Fire/Earth Reaver proposal has the distinct advantage of me being able to code it. :P )

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Post Tuesday, 18th October 2011, 20:28

Re: Reavers

LBL is Long Blades.
Let Reaver have the blasty spells,
and give Fire Elementalist a new spell -> Smoke lvl 5 pure fire (off the top off my head)
Makes smoke clouds to block line of sight, exactly what says on the tin.
Fire magic needs this badly if for nothing than just the flavour. In my opinion.
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Post Tuesday, 18th October 2011, 22:04

Re: Reavers

ElectricAlbatross wrote:I found a concept of a Hex/Conj caster intriguing, but to me the spells on that proposal seem a bit… gimmicky. In addition, the background doesn't seem to have much magic-melee synergy, and looks fine as a pure caster. What I'd like from the Reaver is to blast things with melee and spells in equal measure.


My underlying concern is mostly with classes that are ostensibly focused on Conjurations but basically turn out to be two elementalists smooshed together. Then again, this might be a problem with Conjurations as a school, since there's only three pure Conjuration spells, and mostly the school just seems like a way to keep elemental+poison damage spells from getting too powerful by making them multi-school.

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Post Tuesday, 18th October 2011, 23:03

Re: Reavers

Zzz wrote:Fire magic needs this badly if for nothing than just the flavour. In my opinion.

Doing things that would have such a significant impact on gameplay just for the purpose of advancing flavor is bad, wrong, and bad. The correct way to think about such things is whether they'd address serious gameplay deficiencies or otherwise enhance the gameplay; flavor can be added afterward. Crawl is a game of heavy tactics and strategy, and flavor should never interfere with this.

On an unrelated note, in case anyone is curious, Light just added Reavers back to the game with a "Book of Ruin": Magic Dart, Throw Frost, Conjure Flame, Stone Arrow, Static Discharge, Iskenderun's Mystic Blast.
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Post Wednesday, 19th October 2011, 03:05

Re: Reavers

dtsund wrote:On an unrelated note, in case anyone is curious, Light just added Reavers back to the game with a "Book of Ruin": Magic Dart, Throw Frost, Conjure Flame, Stone Arrow, Static Discharge, Iskenderun's Mystic Blast.


Why would a hypothetical player ever choose to use Throw Frost, Stone Arrow, or Static Discharge here? Conjure Flame has good utility, but Mystic Blast is so much more cost-effective than any of these other spells that I can't see anyone bothering to pick up the other spells instead even if they have plans to go into that very elemental branch. Divide xp between spellcasting and conjurations to get to Mystic Blast as quick as possible, and you don't need any other spell until post-Lair.

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Post Wednesday, 19th October 2011, 08:36

Re: Reavers

I have to say I'm surprised to see Mystic Blast in a starting book - I'd always assumed it was one of those spells that was so all-round useful that it was deliberately only put into one relatively rare book.

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Post Wednesday, 19th October 2011, 16:32

Re: Reavers

minmay wrote:Throw Icicle is in a starting book...


Some, like me, argue that it probably shouldn't be.

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