Remove conjurations school.

[agentgt]

To simplify the game and possibly make magic more powerful I would love to see the Conjurations school removed.
I have been sitting on this opinionated blasphemous idea for a while in fear of discussing it on tavern since its a drastic change that is unlikely to happen and will probably be criticized heavily.

What this would entail:

* Making spells like Fire Bolt, Iron Shot, etc single school.
* The other pure conjurations spells probably removed or reflavored / reschooled.
* Some of the spells may need to be increased a level or weakened (ie 7 instead of 6).

Really the only interesting pure conjurations spell is IOD which could be reflavored or reschooled to e.g. Translocations/Hex or Earth/Fire (it doesn't really matter as I'm sure someone can come up with some creative flavor description).

Now I'll admit that I'm heavily biased. I don't like conjurations as they are basically a mulch always launcher that you have to press 5 to recharge. Also most of the conjurations spells are seriously devoid of creativity. And finally if Mulch Always gets put in for launchers the difference between conjurations becomes less.

I'm hoping a change like this would actually make magic and launchers more popular. Less schools generally requires less XP. Yes this would probably buff launcher like magic but I honestly think those spells need a buff.

[Sandman25]

I'm hoping a change like this would actually make magic and launchers more popular. Less schools generally requires less XP.

I am afraid it will have the opposite effect. Currently you can train Conjurations, get some skill levels in elemental schools and enjoy Bolt of foo/Poison Arrow/ Foo Cloud etc. If you change Bolt of Fire to level 7, FE will still need to have some non-fire damage and it means the caster will need to train more magic to get the same killing power (or alternatively hybridize earlier)

[pickled_heretic]

I'm hoping a change like this would actually make magic and launchers more popular. Less schools generally requires less XP.

I am afraid it will have the opposite effect. Currently you can train Conjurations, get some skill levels in elemental schools and enjoy Bolt of foo/Poison Arrow/ Foo Cloud etc. If you change Bolt of Fire to level 7, FE will still need to have some non-fire damage and it means the caster will need to train more magic to get the same killing power (or alternatively hybridize earlier)

Simple solution, don't raise them to xl7. This is almost a catch 22 phrase in the first place: "more schools + multi school spells make magic better because you have to raise them all so it's easier to diversify" is a really asinine statement.

To draw a comparison to melee weapons, it would be like having to train leather weapons for whips, leather and wood weapons for quarterstaffs, and leather, wood, and steel weapons for swords.

Lots of talk in general (not specific to you) about "this change or that change is too hard, it would cause imbalance issues." To that I would say "have you ever played crawl?"

[Berder]

Now I'll admit that I'm heavily biased. I don't like conjurations

[Sandman25]

Well, probably Mf with Bardiche at min delay and Glaciate before Vaults could be a bit too much
Personally I don't mind buffing casters a bit of course.

[Pereza0]

Also most of the conjurations spells are seriously devoid of creativity.

I feel the opposite, the pure conjurations (and the conjurations/hexes ones) generally feel more creative to me than the elementals ones (which mostly are straight projectiles/bolts/AoE with elemental damage)

[and into]

Now I'll admit that I'm heavily biased. I don't like conjurations as they are basically a mulch always launcher that you have to press 5 to recharge.

Which is... not really all that much like a launcher? I mean, at a sufficient level of abstraction, any two game features can be made to sound the same. But, in practice, my characters that have used a lot of conjurations tend to develop and play quite differently from characters that are heavily using launchers.

I don't think there would be good effects from removing the school. If nothing else, conjuror is a pretty cool book background, for one thing. And I really see no solid reasons for removal given by OP. It is not clear to me that the game would be simpler if you removed conjurations, nor that magic would be made more powerful by this change. And even if it did buff magic, why *should* magic be made more powerful? Does it need the buff?

Basically, aside from conjuror and the pure conjuration spells, the existence of conjurations as a school makes it easier for some characters to get different flavors of damage spells, if you want them, which I think is a good option for people to have.

[pickled_heretic]

Does it need the buff?

Is this rhetorical or do you want an answer?

[dowan]

I mean, at a sufficient level of abstraction, any two game features can be made to sound the same.

This is so true, and so overused here.
FR: Remove crawl;
Currently, when my computer boots up, it runs some lines of code, responds to some user input, and outputs some stuff to my screen.
When I run crawl, it runs some lines of code, responds to some user input, and outputs some stuff to my screen.

It's just completely redundant!

[Berder]

What the conjurations school does is open up many cross-school spells, because you have conjurations to tie them together. For instance, this is what I'm casting on my current xl18 TeCj:

  Code:

 a + Shock                         Conjuration/Air               0%          1
 b - Orb of Destruction            Conjuration                   1%          7
 c - Iskenderun's Mystic Blast     Conjuration                   1%          4
 d - Iskenderun's Battlesphere     Conjuration/Charms            1%          5
 e - Magic Dart                    Conjuration                   0%          1
 f - Sticky Flame                  Conjuration/Fire              1%          4
 g - Freezing Cloud                Conjuration/Ice/Air           1%          6
 h - Ozocubu's Armour              Charms/Ice                    1%          3
 i - Ozocubu's Refrigeration       Ice                           3%          6
 m - Deflect Missiles              Charms/Air                    4%          6


With these skills:

  Code:

      Skill           Level Train  Apt       Skill           Level Train  Apt
  a + Fighting        12.9   20%    0    j + Spellcasting    14.5   20%   -1
  b - Maces & Flails   0.0         +1    k + Conjurations    14.9   20%   +3
  c - Polearms         0.0         +1    l - Charms           9.0         -2
  d - Staves           0.0         +1    m - Fire Magic       0.0         +1
  e - Unarmed Combat   0.0         +1    n - Ice Magic        9.1         -1
                                         o - Air Magic       13.8         +3
  f + Crossbows       11.0   20%   +1
  g - Throwing         0.0         +1    p - Evocations       6.9          0
                                         q - Stealth          2.0         +1
  h - Armour           0.0         +1
  i + Dodging         13.5   20%   +1

Now let's look at what removal of conjurations would do for this character in terms of how easy it would be to cast different spells.

• Would I have memorized Shock back when Vehumet offered it, if it was just a level 1 air spell? Probably not, because it wouldn't have had good spellpower without conjurations.
• Battlesphere would have been much harder to get if it was just Charms, because Tengu charms aptitude is -2 and Tengu conj aptitude is +3. I had like 13 conj 5 charms when I first cast battlesphere.
• How about sticky flame? I haven't even trained any fire magic on this character, but I was able to get sticky flame as soon as I found it just because of my high conjurations.
• Freezing cloud? My conjurations is the highest skill for fcloud. When I first found fcloud, I had trained 0 air magic and like 14 conjurations. Without the conjurations it wouldn't have made sense to get air and ice.
  
  • When I first got freezing cloud castable, my air magic was only around 10 (I primarily got high air magic for DMSL).
  • Also my ice magic was also a lot lower, maybe 5, when I first cast fcloud.
  • Conjurations was really what let me cast it as soon as I did.
• If OOD was reschooled to translocations/hexes like you suggested, I couldn't cast it because Te aptitude for those is awful. You alternately suggested Earth/Fire. Te aptitude for Earth is also very bad, so that would be a lot harder to cast on this character. Plus, this character's other spells are ice/air/charms so there would be no synergy.

[pickled_heretic]

what would a stabber with the stab skill have done after the stabbing skill was removed?

[agentgt]

I agree with pickled_heretic. I do not agree with the idea that training conjurations as say a FE helps you that much with being able to instantly cast conjurations of other schools.
This is clearly not feasible unless your incredibly magic oriented (ie deep elf).... ie you train fire bolt your not going to be able to instantly cast iron shot.

Even for the deep elf case it would take you very little time to train Earth since you didn't waste XP training conjurations.

As for magic needing a buff... I rarely see conjuration builds get low turn count wins. Powerful magic means things die quicker which means less turns which means less kiting, less waiting for mp regen, which means winning faster etc...

This is especially needed since targeting can be exceedingly tedious, and worse conjurations have multiple failures.
You can miscast, you can just miss the monster or the monsters AC wins. Melee you can just miss or do no damage.

The other magics like transmutation you don't have to continuously cast nor target. Hexes even has % success.. you don't get this with conjurations... Your stone arrow misses the black mamba...

So yeah I think conjurations need a buff!

[Berder]

I agree with pickled_heretic. I do not agree with the idea that training conjurations as say a FE helps you that much with being able to instantly cast conjurations of other schools.
This is clearly not feasible unless your incredibly magic oriented (ie deep elf).... ie you train fire bolt your not going to be able to instantly cast iron shot.

Not instantly, no, but it is very common for a FE to pick up iron shot much more easily because he already trained conjurations. If the game doesn't give me OOD on my FE (Which I frequently can cast as soon as I find it on an FE), I'll probably get iron shot instead, because you need an orb-of-fire-killer.

[agentgt]

I agree with pickled_heretic. I do not agree with the idea that training conjurations as say a FE helps you that much with being able to instantly cast conjurations of other schools.
This is clearly not feasible unless your incredibly magic oriented (ie deep elf).... ie you train fire bolt your not going to be able to instantly cast iron shot.

Not instantly, no, but it is very common for a FE to pick up iron shot much more easily because he already trained conjurations.

Fire magic has earth spells.. clearly the elimination of conjurations more spells could be teamed up together. ie like magna bolt.

[pickled_heretic]

I like the Cj background, I like the Cj starting book, and I like conjurations in general. Fulminant prism is probably one of my favorite spells in the game. I just don't think it would be that hard to distribute the cool effects from conjurations among other schools and just get rid of the school entirely. Removing 2nd (in some cases 3rd) schools from spells also would have a net effect of making all of those spells easier to cast, regardless of any positing about how some multi school spells share schools with other multi school spells...

[Sandman25]

Hexes even has % success.. you don't get this with conjurations... Your stone arrow misses the black mamba...

Well, I submitted a patch which displays the same "N%" chance for Iron Shot vs Black Mamba like is done for Hexes. It got some negative feedback so I think it will never be accepted.

[and into]

Does it need the buff?

Is this rhetorical or do you want an answer?

I would like it if you or the OP actually spelled out what good effects you think this change (specifically) would have on the game, and why they would be positive. You aren't obliged to do so, of course, as this isn't GDD.

Fire magic has earth spells.. clearly the elimination of conjurations more spells could be teamed up together. ie like magna bolt.

So, let's remove conjurations, and then shoehorn a bunch of other spells together in a manner that isn't at all organic. Other people can figure out the details—that's easy, man.

Have you actually thought about how this would affect existing backgrounds, existing spell books, and so forth?

Turn counts are really apropos of nothing, and really is not a measure of how strong a character is. (Characters that speedrun and win in fewest turns are for that very reason *under*-powered relative to other characters who fully explored everything, killed as much as they could, hit level 27, etc.)

Dudes that frequently empty their MP bar to kill stuff require more turns on average to get stuff done, because you are now 5ing to regen *two* things instead of just one. Removing conjurations school will not meaningfully change that.

what would a stabber with the stab skill have done after the stabbing skill was removed?

Apples and oranges. The stabbing skill didn't affect spell power and success for a quarter of all the spells in Crawl. A reasonable analogy might be, "What would happen if hexes school were removed, and all the spells were shuttled around into different schools or taken out of the game?" Obviously that would have a major impact in a way that dissolving stabbing, a skill with a very narrow and particular effect, into weapon skill and stealth, did not.

[pickled_heretic]

regardless of whether or not you think it's apples and oranges, the same thing would have happened. The stabber in question wasted experience that could have gone to other avenues since the stabbing calc went onto other skills. The same thing would happen if you got rid of a school. Who cares what it does to a character that was played in a previous version? What you would do in any case is build the character differently so it's not an issue in the current version.

In terms of what the change might do, I've said it at least once, but I'll give it a go again: Reducing the number of schools a spell falls into has a direct affect of making the spell require significantly less experience to cast and increase spellpower for.

To put it another way, we think of how easy it is for, e.g. a FE to splash earth to get iron shot online because he's already had a significant investment into conjurations. What everyone is ignoring is how much experience he had to spend to get firebolt online in the first place!

tl;dr: We just cut the experience required for almost every FE spell for a given sp/success rate in half, but look on the downside... it's harder to diversify... oh wait

[Sandman25]

Provided you are not suggesting to change spell levels, yes, it is a buff for casters. Too big buff probably.
I like the idea that casters will be more different from each other by the way.

[Siegurt]

In terms of what the change might do, I've said it at least once, but I'll give it a go again: Reducing the number of schools a spell falls into has a direct affect of making the spell require significantly less experience to cast and increase spellpower for.

To put it another way, we think of how easy it is for, e.g. a FE to splash earth to get iron shot online because he's already had a significant investment into conjurations. What everyone is ignoring is how much experience he had to spend to get firebolt online in the first place!

I don't think anyone is ignoring that, presume for a moment that you make Fire bolt pure fire, and iron shot pure earth, leave their levels alone, and make no other changes, Now you get Fire bolt online for half the skill points, you can get fire bolt and iron shot online for the same number of skill points as it used to take fire bolt alone, which is 2/3 of the skill points it took to get both online previously, on the surface that appears to be a net gain for the conjurer.

*however* we aren't talking about just two schools of skills, we're talking about a large number of them (And it's fairly plain to see if you wanted more than just two schools of attacks, you'd need that much more XP, at three schools you've spent the same as with the current system and at four schools you've spent more XP),

Also this effectively halves the requirements for those skills, so in compensation you suggest raising the level of the spells in question, However while a level 7 fire bolt using pure fire school costs around the same amount as a level 6 dual-school spell, getting two level 7 single-school spells online costs a LOT more than getting 2 level 6 dual school spells online when the two share a school, expand this out to all the current conjuration spells, and you're talking about a drastic *nerf* to attack spells overall (not to mention that increasing the spell level from 6 to 7 additionally increases the mana cost, weakening the spells even at the same damage per cast)

So in net, there's either a flexibility cost (if we simply remove conjurations) or a power cost (if we remove conjurations and bump up spell levels to compensate).

You could make the argument that the flexibility cost vs lower XP for the same power gain is worth the exchange, but if you're right, then you're left with a mess that requires a lot of work to clean up, you have to go through all the spells and redistribute them, decide what designs to keep and which to get rid of, then you have to rebalance the whole thing. Finally that's only a benefit *for the game*(as distinct from *for the player*) if current spellcasters are sufficiently underpowered that they're spells should cost them less XP for their effects, to an extent where they aren't worth playing. I don't know that you've established that as true (there are those who will argue that it is and others who will disagree)

[duvessa]

real talk though: all the pure conj and conj/hex spells are seriously jank except for magic dart

[pickled_heretic]

what is "jank" supposed to mean?

[agentgt]

I think Seigurt and "and into" make excellent points.

Have you actually thought about how this would affect existing backgrounds, existing spell books, and so forth?
... Snip ....

Yes I have tried to think about this and part if not most of the point of my question is to explore it more (ie mental experiment) since obviously it isn't going to happen (hence Crazy Yuif).
I did try experimenting once with wizard mode by constantly adjust my XP in conjurations based on other schools (that is match Fire magic).. Although tedious It seemed powerful but I always died to laziness and speed (It didn't help that I knew it was wizmode).

One thing I'm quite positive of is that removing a school will probably make magic more powerful especially if the number of books are reduced also (ie books containing more spells). That I could not easily test with wiz mode (ie less books but more spells in the books).

But generally I have no idea what would happen (ie what sort of weird side effects or imbalances). If it was really going to happen I would imagine it being an experimental branch that would require lots of experimenting.

[mps]

This is actually a good idea for a couple of reasons. First, conjurations suck compared to other spells, e.g. charms, translocations, summons, maybe hexes, largely because the more effective ones require two schools, hence more xp. There are also issues of comparative effect per mp. The gameplay consequences of the school represent a major misjudgement of the power of existing bolts spells and so on.

More importantly, though, there are just too many spell schools. Conjurations is one of the more themeless, nebulous categories and the spells in it are largely overrated. If it were removed, the game would benefit from a simpler skill system and no necessary loss of spells. Pure conjurations could be either removed or switched to other schools. The only really imaginative pure conjuration is OoD anyway.

[Rast]

I mean, at a sufficient level of abstraction, any two game features can be made to sound the same.

This is so true, and so overused here.
FR: Remove crawl;
Currently, when my computer boots up, it runs some lines of code, responds to some user input, and outputs some stuff to my screen.
When I run crawl, it runs some lines of code, responds to some user input, and outputs some stuff to my screen.

It's just completely redundant!

FR: Remove Duvessa; she's redundant with Dowan.

[thevogonpoet]

The Conjurer start is probably my favourite book start right now. Plenty of fire power, take at your leisure whichever elemental school you find if you really want to, kill dudes, lovely. Also, I don't understand why people hate on IMB so much? Is it from taking it as support spell when Cj is your second school? My Cj still tend to use it with Battlesphere all the way to Depths and even into Zot. It does like, plenty of damage. And OOD is clearly awesome fun, and massively damaging.

Anyway, just wanted to say, I would be sad to loose Conjurer school, as I like the delay it affords you in deciding to branch into other schools, nor do I feel the spells in the starting book suck, I think they are kinda interesting and powerful.

/I wouldn't be all MD ragey about it though, that would be weird.

[Sandman25]

This is actually a good idea for a couple of reasons. First, conjurations suck compared to other spells, e.g. charms, translocations, summons, maybe hexes, largely because the more effective ones require two schools, hence more xp.

Have you tried clearing Zigs with "charms, translocations, summons, maybe hexes"? Is it comparable with Glaciate/Fire Storm? Is it possible to kill a Tormentor, Hellion, Cacodemon or any Fiend at the edge of LoS? You can add Shatter and Tornado if you want, they don't help much either.

There are also issues of comparative effect per mp. The gameplay consequences of the school represent a major misjudgement of the power of existing bolts spells and so on.

If you have multiple monsters, you use Bolt. If you have a single monster, you use Iron Shot/LCS. Of course it requires old system where we still have Conjurations. Only a few people would train Earth for Iron Shot in addition to Bolt of Fire in new system, it would be much better to train a weapon instead.

More importantly, though, there are just too many spell schools.

Why is it a problem?

Conjurations is one of the more themeless, nebulous categories and the spells in it are largely overrated.

See my comment about Glaciate/Fire Storm above.

If it were removed, the game would benefit from a simpler skill system and no necessary loss of spells.

Why is simpler skill system better? Do you want a single weapon category and a single "damage" magic school?

[agentgt]

This is actually a good idea for a couple of reasons. First, conjurations suck compared to other spells, e.g. charms, translocations, summons, maybe hexes, largely because the more effective ones require two schools, hence more xp.

Have you tried clearing Zigs with "charms, translocations, summons, maybe hexes"? Is it comparable with Glaciate/Fire Storm? Is it possible to kill a Tormentor, Hellion, Cacodemon or any Fiend at the edge of LoS? You can add Shatter and Tornado if you want, they don't help much either.

[There are also issues of comparative effect per mp. The gameplay consequences of the school represent a major misjudgement of the power of existing bolts spells and so on.

You can easily do a zig with out conjurations. Hell conjurations is actually fairly inefficient given Tornado and a god that heals you on Kill... I have even seen disjunction dith zig runs ... again requiring far less XP. If your going to do a conjuration zig run its almost required that you have a shit load of support spells. And finally if people are going to say turns don't matter than... clearly zig winning matters far less.

Oh and as for killing Hellion's Cacodemons and to Berder's previous comment of OOFs... there is a very effective way of pseudo killing them... its called warp weapon... a level 5 spell.
I could go on and on how effective warp weapon is or various other non conjurations spells at maybe not killing everything but very very good at winning the game.

[pickled_heretic]

I knew firestorm and glaciate were going to be brought up sooner or later but do you really think getting TWO skills to 20+ to get them running is appropriate for their powerlevel?

[Sandman25]

You can easily do a zig with out conjurations. Hell conjurations is actually fairly inefficient given Tornado and a god that heals you on Kill... I have even seen disjunction dith zig runs ... again requiring far less XP. If your going to do a conjuration zig run its almost required that you have a shit load of support spells. And finally if people are going to say turns don't matter than... clearly zig winning matters far less.

Yes, I know, I cleared a zig without casting any spells. I was asking whether Glaciate/Fire Storm are comparable (i.e. as easy) as "charms, translocations etc.". Conjuration spells are not overrated, probably they are underrated by you. Glaciate/Fire Storm are really great in extended (this is where they are used the most) and they should not be as cheap as Tornado/Shatter.

[Sandman25]

I knew firestorm and glaciate were going to be brought up sooner or later but do you really think getting TWO skills to 20+ to get them running is appropriate for their powerlevel?

Yes. Do you want to make them available in 3 rune game for most species?

[mps]

No, I don't want a single damage school.

You ask why a simpler skill system is better. I present the following:

  Code:

                 Arm Ddg Sth Shd   Inv Evo           HP   MP   Exp
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Human              0   0  +1   0    +1   0           +0%   0    +1
Centaur           -3  -3  -3  -3    +1  -1          +10%   0    -1
Demigod           -1  -1   0  -1     0  -1          +10%  +2    -2
Demonspawn        -1  -1   0  -1    +3   0           +0%   0    -1
Draconian          0  -1   0   0    +1   0          +10%   0    -1
         Black     0  -1   0   0    +1   0          +10%   0    -1
         Green     0  -1   0   0    +1   0          +10%   0    -1
          Grey     0  -1   0   0    +1   0          +10%   0    -1
       Mottled     0  -1   0   0    +1   0          +10%   0    -1
          Pale     0  -1   0   0    +1  +1          +10%   0    -1
        Purple     0  -1   0   0    +1  +1          +10%   0    -1
           Red     0  -1   0   0    +1   0          +10%   0    -1
         White     0  -1   0   0    +1   0          +10%   0    -1
        Yellow     0  -1   0   0    +1   0          +10%   0    -1
Deep Dwarf        +1  +1  +3  +1    +3  +3          +20%   0    -1
Deep Elf          -2  +2  +3  -2    +1  +1          -20%  +2    -1
High Elf          -1  +1  +2  -1    +1   0          -10%  +1    -1
Felid              0  +3  +4   0     0  +1          -40%  +1    -1
Formicid          +1  -1  +3  +2    +2  +1           +0%   0    +1
Gargoyle          +1  -2  +2  +1    +1  -1          -20%   0     0
Ghoul             -1  -1  +2  -1    +1  -1          +10%  -1     0
Halfling          +1  +1  +2  +1    +1   0          -10%   0    +1
Kobold            -2  +2  +4  -2    +1  +2          -20%   0    +1
Merfolk           -3  +3  +2   0    +1   0           +0%   0     0
Minotaur          +2  +1  -1  +2     0  -1          +10%  -1    -1
Mummy             -2  -2  -1  -2    -1  -2           +0%   0    -1
Naga              -2  -2  +5  -2    +1   0          +20%   0     0
Octopode           0   0  +4   0    +1  +1          -10%   0     0
Ogre              -2  -1  -1  -1    +1  -2          +30%   0     0
Hill Orc          +1  -2  -1  +1    +3   0          +10%   0     0
Spriggan          -3  +4  +5  -3     0  +3          -30%  +1    -1
Tengu             +1  +1  +1   0    -1   0          -20%  +1     0
Troll             -2  -2  -4  -2    -1  -3          +30%  -1    -1
Vampire           -2  +1  +5  -1    -1  -1           +0%   0    -1
Vine Stalker      -2  -2  +3  -1     0  -1          -30%  +1     0
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                 Arm Ddg Sth Shd   Inv Evo           HP   MP   Exp


                 Fgt SBl LBl M&F Axs Pla Stv UC    Thr Slg Bws Crb
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Human              0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0     0   0   0   0
Centaur            0  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1   0    +3  +1  +3  +1
Demigod           -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1    -1  -1  -1  -1
Demonspawn         0  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1    -1  -1  -1  -1
Draconian         +1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
         Black    +1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
         Green    +1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
          Grey    +1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
       Mottled    +1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
          Pale    +1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
        Purple    +1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
           Red    +1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
         White    +1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
        Yellow    +1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
Deep Dwarf        -1  -1   0   0  +1  -1  -1  -1    -1  +1  -3  +1
Deep Elf          -2   0  -1  -3  -2  -3   0  -2    +1  -2  +1  -1
High Elf           0  +2  +2  -2  -2  -2   0  -2    +1  -2  +3   0
Felid              0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0     0   0   0   0
Formicid          +1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -2  +1  -2   0
Gargoyle          +1  -1  -1   0  -1  -1   0   0     0  -1   0   0
Ghoul             +1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  +1    -1  -1  -1  -1
Halfling          -1  +3   0  -2  -1  -3  -2  -2    +3  +4  +2  -1
Kobold            +1  +3  -2   0  -1  -2  -1   0    +3  +2  -1  +2
Merfolk           +1  +2  +1  -2  -2  +4  -2  +1     0  -2  -2  -2
Minotaur          +2  +1  +2  +2  +2  +2  +2  +1     0  +1  +1  +1
Mummy              0  -2  -2  -2  -2  -2  -2  -2    -2  -2  -2  -2
Naga               0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
Octopode           0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0     0   0   0   0
Ogre              +3  -4  -3  +3  -3   0  -1  -1    +1  -3  -3  -3
Hill Orc          +2   0  +1  +1  +3  +1  -1  +1     0  -1  -1  -1
Spriggan          -2  +1  -2  -3  -2  -3  -3  -2    +1  +2  +2   0
Tengu              0  +1  +1  +1  +1  +1  +1  +1    +1   0  +1  +1
Troll             -2  -2  -2  -1  -2  -2  -2   0    -1  -4  -4  -4
Vampire           -1  +1   0  -2  -1  -1  -2  +1    -2  -2  -2  -2
Vine Stalker      -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1   0    -1  -1  -1  -1
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                 Fgt SBl LBl M&F Axs Pla Stv UC    Thr Slg Bws Crb


                 Spc Coj Hex Cha Sum Nec Trl Trm   Fir Ice Air Ear Poi
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Human             -1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0     0   0   0   0   0
Centaur           -3  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1    -1  -1  -1  -1  -2
Demigod           -2  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1  -1    -1  -1  -1  -1  -1
Demonspawn        -1   0   0  -1   0  +1  -1  -1    -1  -1  -1  -1   0
Draconian         -1   0  -1  -1   0   0   0   0     0   0   0   0   0
         Black    -1   0  -1  -1   0   0   0   0     0   0  +2  -2   0
         Green    -1   0  -1  -1   0   0   0   0     0   0   0   0  +2
          Grey    -1   0  -1  -1   0   0   0   0     0   0  -2  +2   0
       Mottled    -1   0  -1  -1   0   0   0   0    +1   0   0   0   0
          Pale    -1   0  -1  -1   0   0   0   0    +1   0  +1   0   0
        Purple    +1   0  +1  +1   0   0   0   0     0   0   0   0   0
           Red    -1   0  -1  -1   0   0   0   0    +2  -2   0   0   0
         White    -1   0  -1  -1   0   0   0   0    -2  +2   0   0   0
        Yellow    -1   0  -1  -1   0   0   0   0     0   0   0   0   0
Deep Dwarf        -2  -1  -2  -1  -1  +1  +1  -1    -1  -1  -3  +3  -2
Deep Elf          +3  +1  +3  +4  +1  +2  +1  +1    +1  +1   0  +1  +1
High Elf          +1  +1   0  +2  -1  -2  +1  +1     0   0  +2  -2  -2
Felid             -1  -1  +4  +2   0   0  +4  +1    -1  -1  -1  -1  -1
Formicid           0  -1  +2   0   0   0  -1  +1     0   0  -2  +2  +3
Gargoyle          -1  +1  -1  -1  -1  -2  -1  -2     0   0  -2  +2   0
Ghoul             -2  -2  -2  -1  -1   0  -1  -1    -2  +1  -2  +1   0
Halfling          -3  -2  -1  +1  -1  -2  +1  -4     0   0  +1   0  -1
Kobold            -1  -1   0  -2   0   0   0  -1     0   0   0   0   0
Merfolk           -1  -2   0  +1   0  -2  -2  +3    -3  +1  -2  -2  +1
Minotaur          -4  -3  -4  -4  -3  -3  -3  -2    -3  -3  -3  -2  -3
Mummy             -1  -2  -1  -2  -2   0  -2  -2    -2  -2  -2  -2  -2
Naga              -1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0     0   0   0   0  +3
Octopode          -1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0     0   0   0   0  +2
Ogre              +1  -3  -3  -3  -3  -3  -3  -3    -3  -3  -3  -3  -3
Hill Orc          -3   0   0  -1   0   0  -2  -3    +1  -1  -2   0  -1
Spriggan          +2  -3  +2  +4  -2  -1  +4  +3    -2  -2  -1  -1   0
Tengu             -1  +3  -3  -2  +2  +1  -2  -2    +1  -1  +3  -3   0
Troll             -5  -3  -4  -4  -3  -2  -3  -3    -3  -3  -4  -1  -3
Vampire           -1  -3  +4  +1   0  +1  -2  +1    -2   0   0   0  -1
Vine Stalker       0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0     0   0   0   0   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                 Spc Coj Hex Cha Sum Nec Trl Trm   Fir Ice Air Ear Poi

Hm, which species should I play?

You could (and in my view should) argue that this insane table of random numerical values is not just a product of having too many different skills. For example, most races could have very flat aptitudes except for a small number of deviations or there could be some conventional subcategories used to make the table more digestible. The simple fact, though, is that each race is assigned a pretty random collection of aptitudes and the more skills there are, the more random numbers they get.

e: Also, yes, I do think some of the physical skills, especially weapon skills, should be consolidated.

[pickled_heretic]

I knew firestorm and glaciate were going to be brought up sooner or later but do you really think getting TWO skills to 20+ to get them running is appropriate for their powerlevel?

Yes. Do you want to make them available in 3 rune game for most species?

Sure. And FWIW, I forgot SC which you will need in a good amount to as well.

It's not like dwhip or exe axe, etc. are not available in 3 rune games, so I don't really see the problem.

[agentgt]

You can easily do a zig with out conjurations. Hell conjurations is actually fairly inefficient given Tornado and a god that heals you on Kill... I have even seen disjunction dith zig runs ... again requiring far less XP. If your going to do a conjuration zig run its almost required that you have a shit load of support spells. And finally if people are going to say turns don't matter than... clearly zig winning matters far less.

Yes, I know, I cleared a zig without casting any spells. I was asking whether Glaciate/Fire Storm are comparable (i.e. as easy) as "charms, translocations etc.". Conjuration spells are not overrated, probably they are underrated by you. Glaciate/Fire Storm are really great in extended (this is where they are used the most) and they should not be as cheap as Tornado/Shatter.

I think they are pretty terrible for extended. They make a shit ton of noise.

Guess how many times I had to cast fire storm to kill Anteus.... I think it was 5 or 6 times. Guess how many times I hit him with a warped weapon and teled/banished (I can't recall which it was as I did it to almost every pand/hell lord and it really doesn't matter as it removes him from the situation).

Now lets compare the top level conjurations spells with Borg or Controlled Blink. You basically can't die with Borg. I would much rather have Borg and some charms and shit than firestorm for extended.

Of course there is nothing wrong with being suboptimal. If you like targeting blowing shit up I can see the allure of conjurations. I just don't think there needs to be a school devoted to it.

[Sandman25]

I am not sure what you mean. Do you pick one of Hu/Ce/Dg/Ds/Dr based on aptitudes? I don't. First I decide if I want to play boring/kiting/godless/cool-mutations/no-armour species and then I decide which background I want.

[pickled_heretic]

Do you pick ... Hu ... ? I don't.

Neither does anyone else

[Sandman25]

I think they are pretty terrible for extended. They make a shot ton of noise.

Guess how many times I had to cast fire storm to kill Anteus.... I think it was 5 or 6 times. Guess how many times I hit him with a warped weapon and teled/banished (I can't recall which it was as I did it to almost every pand/hell lord and it really doesn't matter as it removes him from the situation).

Now lets compare the top level conjurations spells with Borg or Controlled Blink. You basically can't die with Borg. I would much rather have Borg and some charms and shit than firestorm for extended.

Did you miss that part where I wrote "Is it possible to kill a Tormentor, Hellion, Cacodemon or any Fiend at the edge of LoS? How will Warp Weapon help you vs those monsters?
I like Controlled Blink/Haste and yes, it is usually optimal to get them castable before Glaciate/Fire Storm.
How many times do you cast Borg in your games?

[Sandman25]

Do you pick ... Hu ... ? I don't.

Neither does anyone else

Then I don't understand what that table was supposed to mean.

[pickled_heretic]

I think they are pretty terrible for extended. They make a shot ton of noise.

Guess how many times I had to cast fire storm to kill Anteus.... I think it was 5 or 6 times. Guess how many times I hit him with a warped weapon and teled/banished (I can't recall which it was as I did it to almost every pand/hell lord and it really doesn't matter as it removes him from the situation).

Now lets compare the top level conjurations spells with Borg or Controlled Blink. You basically can't die with Borg. I would much rather have Borg and some charms and shit than firestorm for extended.

Did you miss that part where I wrote "Is it possible to kill a Tormentor, Hellion, Cacodemon or any Fiend at the edge of LoS? How will Warp Weapon help you vs those monsters?
I like Controlled Blink/Haste and yes, it is usually optimal to get them castable before Glaciate/Fire Storm.
How many times do you cast Borg in your games?

Do you think haste or glaciate/fire storm are more useful in extended? Do you think haste should also be available for a 3 rune game?

[Sandman25]

Do you think haste or glaciate/fire storm are more useful in extended? Do you think haste should also be available for a 3 rune game?

You may be surprised but I would make it level 9 spell if it cannot be removed completely. I even created some threads with nerfing ideas long time ago. Now you are trying to add another "haste-level imbalance" by making Glaciate/Fire Storm single school.

[agentgt]

I think they are pretty terrible for extended. They make a shot ton of noise.

Guess how many times I had to cast fire storm to kill Anteus.... I think it was 5 or 6 times. Guess how many times I hit him with a warped weapon and teled/banished (I can't recall which it was as I did it to almost every pand/hell lord and it really doesn't matter as it removes him from the situation).

Now lets compare the top level conjurations spells with Borg or Controlled Blink. You basically can't die with Borg. I would much rather have Borg and some charms and shit than firestorm for extended.

Did you miss that part where I wrote "Is it possible to kill a Tormentor, Hellion, Cacodemon or any Fiend at the edge of LoS? How will Warp Weapon help you vs those monsters?
I like Controlled Blink/Haste and yes, it is usually optimal to get them castable before Glaciate/Fire Storm.
How many times do you cast Borg in your games?

Well for one I don't consider any of those monsters a threat except for the fiend. A far more effective thing is just not to kill them and avoid them. If your stealth is at a fairly high level... which it should be since if your casting fstorm your probably not wearing shit for armor you can easily use translocations, haste and various other spells if nasty things enter LoS. The only nasty thing enter LoS I would fear is hell sentinels and guess what... those guys take like 2-3 fire storms to kill.

[Sandman25]

Well for one I don't consider any of those monsters a threat except for the fiend. A far more effective thing is just not to kill them and avoid them. If your stealth is at a fairly high level... which it should be since if your casting fstorm your probably not wearing shit for armor you can easily use translocations, haste and various other spells if nasty things enter LoS. The only nasty thing enter LoS I would fear is hell sentinels and guess what... those guys take like 2-3 fire storms to kill.

Tormentor has speed 12, Cacodemon mutates, Hellion does not need LoF. Have you never landed in a dangerous place in Pan? CBlink + Glaciate/Fire Storm is quite effective. Also I always train stealth for extended and just retreat after making so much noise.
Complaining about 2 fire storms per Hell Sentinel? Are you serious here? It is better than CBlink + instakill (because you can damage other monsters with those Fire Storms), right?

Edit. I remember I had 4-5 Fire Storms per Hell Sentinel sometimes.

Edit2. I guess it is really off topic, why are we discussing it so seriously? No dev supported the change yet.

[dowan]

So... tormentors, hellions, and cacodemons just never notice you? Ever? Why do you even bother getting warp weapon since you're apparently just unnoticeable?

Let's say theoretically a tormentor at edge of LOS somehow notices you. Do you just swing at the air in their direction with your disto weapon? Do you just walk away and eat torments since it's faster than you? Do you just haste up and run away into unexplored territory?

I'm not saying you have to use firestorm to kill this stuff, obviously, but just saying you avoid them is BS. I'm sure you can avoid the great majority, but not always. And once something does notice you, and yells, more stuff must notice you.

Conjurations is a great school. OOD is my goto for killing OOFs and liches and such on high int types.

EDIT: DAMN YOU SANDMAN WITH YOUR NINJAS!

[Sandman25]

EDIT: DAMN YOU SANDMAN WITH YOUR NINJAS!

Why are you angry? Your post was very interesting to read, I didn't cover most of it.

[agentgt]

Well for one I don't consider any of those monsters a threat except for the fiend. A far more effective thing is just not to kill them and avoid them. If your stealth is at a fairly high level... which it should be since if your casting fstorm your probably not wearing shit for armor you can easily use translocations, haste and various other spells if nasty things enter LoS. The only nasty thing enter LoS I would fear is hell sentinels and guess what... those guys take like 2-3 fire storms to kill.

Tormentor has speed 12, Cacodemon mutates, Hellion does not need LoF. Have you never landed in a dangerous place in Pan? CBlink + Glaciate/Fire Storm is quite effective. Also I always train stealth for extended and just retreat after making so much noise.
Complaining about 2 fire storms per Hell Sentinel? Are you serious here? It is better than CBlink + instakill (because you can damage other monsters with those Fire Storms), right?

Edit. I remember I had 4-5 Fire Storms per Hell Sentinel sometimes.

Edit2. I guess it is really off topic, why are we discussing it so seriously? No dev supported the change yet.

You do realize with the exception of Formicid you can just teleport away. The secret with crawl extended is not to spend so much time killing shit and if you can tele away.
Surely you won extended with out fstorm or glaciate? Also when something enters LoS its not like its going to instantly kill you.. especially if it hasn't noticed you.

But yeah this is off topic and mainly play style.

[mps]

I am not sure what you mean. Do you pick one of Hu/Ce/Dg/Ds/Dr based on aptitudes? I don't. First I decide if I want to play boring/kiting/godless/cool-mutations/no-armour species and then I decide which background I want.

No, of course not, but I do pick among Hu/HE/DE/Mf/HO/Mi/etc. based on apts and similarly with Ha/Ko. This is just one aspect of the game where an overly long list of skills adds complexity without value. Spell schools are especially problematic because of the complicated interaction of factors determining whether a given spell is usable based on skill levels, int, str, spell skills, and armour skill. The complexity of these interactions is prohibitive for most potential players, imo.

[Sandman25]

I am not sure what you mean. Do you pick one of Hu/Ce/Dg/Ds/Dr based on aptitudes? I don't. First I decide if I want to play boring/kiting/godless/cool-mutations/no-armour species and then I decide which background I want.

No, of course not, but I do pick among Hu/HE/DE/Mf/HO/Mi/etc. based on apts and similarly with Ha/Ko. This is just one aspect of the game where an overly long list of skills adds complexity without value. Spell schools are especially problematic because of the complicated interaction of factors determining whether a given spell is usable based on skill levels, int, str, spell skills, and armour skill. The complexity of these interactions is prohibitive for most potential players, imo.

You will still need to analyze Summoning for IE, Transmutations for EE, Hexes for FE, Charms for AE, several skills for Wz etc. New players can pick background first and then select one of recommended species if they don't want to minmax.

[tabstorm]

Why not just leave the Conjurations school for pure conjurations and make the element/conj schools no longer require Conjurations?

[PleasingFungus]

This is a very silly thread.

[agentgt]

This is a very silly thread.

Which part of it is silly... It is in Crazy Yuif and not in Game Design so it is somewhat inherently silly.

I was very nervous about posting this as I have a tendency to take critique poorly (I won't lash out but I do feel like a moron when people say "silly").