Shoals Surfer
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Let Nagas Constrict at Level 1
- For this message the author pickled_heretic has received thanks: 2
- chequers, tasonir
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Shoals Surfer
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Dungeon Master
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dpeg wrote:Nagas are not bad.
Cocytus Succeeder
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Shoals Surfer
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bel wrote:I never found nagas to be bad, even in early game, but I agree that constrict at L1 seems good for them. Early game is already somewhat tough for them. No idea why constrict was changed.
Zot Zealot
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Pandemonium Purger
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Crypt Cleanser
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Dungeon Master
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Wahaha wrote:Te move faster while flying, unless that was removed. Would be a huge difference in the early dungeon. It's good that they don't start with flight.
Ziggurat Zagger
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chequers wrote:It's also simpler. I don't really get why a lot of species differentiation takes so long to arrive, eg Naga constrict, Te/Gr flight.
Ziggurat Zagger
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pickled_heretic wrote:nagas pre-lair are like playing a survival horror game where everything moves faster than you
Tartarus Sorceror
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Barkeep
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dowan wrote:Wait, wasn't there also some bug with constriction damage back then, which was the real reason nagas were the second most won race.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Cocytus Succeeder
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Dungeon Master
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dowan wrote:I find it odd seeing so many people saying nagas are good, when those same people talk about how horrible chei is, and how bad ponderous items are.
Dungeon Master
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Sar wrote:pickled_heretic wrote:nagas pre-lair are like playing a survival horror game where everything moves faster than you
I don't see a problem?
Blades Runner
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Abyss Ambulator
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Ziggurat Zagger
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You shout for attention!
You barely miss the adder.
You grab the adder.(damage 0); You constrict the adder. (damage 1)
The adder bites you.
You are poisoned.
The adder poisons you! The adder bites you but does no damage.
Damage: -19%(-4hp) hp: 81%(17hp)
You constrict the adder. (damage 1)
You feel sick. The adder barely misses you.
Damage: -4%(-1hp) hp: 77%(16hp)
You constrict the adder. (damage 1)
You feel sick. The adder barely misses you.
Damage: -5%(-1hp) hp: 72%(15hp)
You constrict the adder. (damage 2)
The adder barely misses you. The adder bites you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You are lethally poisoned!
The adder poisons you!
Huge Dmg: -19%(-4hp) hp: 53%(11hp)
You constrict the adder. (damage 2)
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel sick. The adder barely misses you.
Damage: -5%(-1hp) hp: 48%(10hp)
You constrict the adder. (damage 4)
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel sick. The adder misses you.
Damage: -5%(-1hp) hp: 43%(9hp)
You constrict the adder. (damage 2)
You kill the adder!
Slime Squisher
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Location: Sweedledome
Tartarus Sorceror
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Barkeep
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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dowan wrote:Having this wide difficulty range is kind of meaningless if the difficult species are just painful to play.
Pandemonium Purger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Sandman25 wrote:I really feel we need harder species to keep players interested.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Sandman25 wrote:dowan wrote:Having this wide difficulty range is kind of meaningless if the difficult species are just painful to play.
I am not sure what you mean as painful here (too easy to die? annoying? unavoidable deaths?). Do you want hard species be as easy as other species during early game and become harder late game?
I really feel we need harder species to keep players interested. Yesterday I spectated a Fo running away from easy monsters and trying to get abyssed in Elf 3 (reading vulnerability and passing turns with Deep Elf Demonologist in kill hole) because "there is so much XP, it feels unfair".
Ziggurat Zagger
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Sprucery wrote:Sandman25 wrote:I really feel we need harder species to keep players interested.
I still think my suggestion about an rcfile option for scaling down max hit points (say, 50/75%) would make for a simple yet effective way to make the game harder for those who want that.
Ziggurat Zagger
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dowan wrote:Let's use felids as an example. They can be painful to play, because due to their low HP and high speed, you spend a lot of time running away and regenerating HPs or MPs. They are a difficult species in some ways, but more importantly, they are unpleasant (for me at least) to play.
An early naga is painful because their optimal play is to spit at any monster you see, then run away, and spit again when possible, until the range is closed, then you just hope you can win the fight, because you can't run away. Not being able to run away can lead to very interesting situations and decisions when you have tools to work with, but early in the game you have no such tools. So having constriction available at level 1 would help get to the interesting part of the naga game (again, this is all just my experience, interesting is obviously subjective).
Having some races less front loaded in difficulty doesn't seem like a bad thing, it creates more interesting differences between races.
If you're at the point where you're purposely doing stupid things because you feel the game is too easy, you've been playing crawl way too much. Some optional way of increasing difficulty might be nice, but if you're at the point where you know the exact right move to do in every situation, there's no way to make crawl harder without also making it more unfair. Although maybe an option to simply reduce incoming XP would make some people happy, and it seems like it'd be easy enough to code.
Barkeep
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Pollen_Golem wrote:This terminology. What XL is really early game, Sar?
Tartarus Sorceror
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Ziggurat Zagger
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dowan wrote:The interesting part of the naga game is where you have to use different tactics from a standard game with a normal speed race, but you actually do have other options, like using consumables, casting spells, etc. On D1 your other options are to swing at the guy till he dies, or you die. D1 constriction doesn't change your options of course, but it means you probably get past D1, and get to the point of the game where you have options and choices to make.
Ziggurat Zagger
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dowan wrote:On D1 your other options are to swing at the guy till he dies, or you die
Tartarus Sorceror
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Sar wrote:dowan wrote:On D1 your other options are to swing at the guy till he dies, or you die
Or you can, like, spit, move back, spit, try to approach encounters carefully (Na have high natural stealth factor), etc.
dowan wrote:An early naga is painful because their optimal play is to spit at any monster you see, then run away, and spit again when possible, until the range is closed, then you just hope you can win the fight, because you can't run away. Not being able to run away can lead to very interesting situations and decisions when you have tools to work with, but early in the game you have no such tools. So having constriction available at level 1 would help get to the interesting part of the naga game (again, this is all just my experience, interesting is obviously subjective).
Tartarus Sorceror
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Sandman25 wrote:Ok, let me try to be more clear. Naga are hard species early game. If some players cannot play with them (don't enjoy spitting, die too often, don't want to train Stealth, don't want to use polearms or whatever), they have about 25 easier species to play.
If some players find Nagas too easy, they don't have an easy solution, they cannot always play Op/Mu because these 2 species are too unique, so the players try to worship Qazlal/Chei/Xom etc. just to make the game harder.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Ziggurat Zagger
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dowan wrote:But what's so great about pre XL7 naga play that constriction would ruin?
dowan wrote:If we want the devs to consider our opinions, then we have to state them, and defend them. I think we've all done that pretty well here.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Tartarus Sorceror
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dpeg wrote:...I don't think it's crucial either way (the species was alright without constriction altogether, and it'd still be okay with level 1 constriction). The current situation is agreeable, in my opinion, because you will be able to do what monster nagas to do players (constrict), but the situation is different to octopodes who can do it from turn 1 (and certainly need it more).
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