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Stealthier when still
- For this message the author Pollen_Golem has received thanks:
- Rast
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
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tabstorm wrote:Sandman25 wrote:I will try Sil and Brogue again more some day I guess, it should not be too hard to get used to ascii.
I eagerly await your reaction to move-s-move-s-move-s in Brogue.
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Sandman25 wrote:tabstorm wrote:Sandman25 wrote:I will try Sil and Brogue again more some day I guess, it should not be too hard to get used to ascii.
I eagerly await your reaction to move-s-move-s-move-s in Brogue.
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Arrhythmia wrote:to be entirely fair, tabstorm is talking about traps in brogue and not stealth
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Siegurt wrote:being one step further away from something nasty is always better than being one step closer
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Pollen_Golem wrote:directly contradicts one of Crawl's stated design goals.
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Sandman25 wrote:Arrhythmia wrote:to be entirely fair, tabstorm is talking about traps in brogue and not stealth
So in crawl only As and En will be moving 1 tile - press . - move another tile - press . - move 1 tile?
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Arrhythmia wrote:no, because that doesn't make sense even in PG's system.
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Sandman25 wrote:snip
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Wahaha wrote:there's no way to tell how much it will help
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Pollen_Golem wrote:It would make more intuitive sense, and make for interesting decisions, if pressing "." made you stealthier, or otherwise harder to notice. Make canines ignore it, because they use smell.
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Pollen_Golem wrote:The way Crawl works today, a monster is equally likely to notice you whether you're moving, waiting, or fumbling around in your inventory. This makes it always ideal to move away from a dangerous monster that has not noticed you.
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dowan wrote:Well, I see how it would be useful, for example, I am standing in a corner, and a scary monster comes into view, but hasn't seen me yet. I can either run for it, hoping said monster doesn't see me while I run, or I can wait a turn and hope the monster steps away, thus allowing me to run away with the monster out of LOS.
In fact, I already do this sometimes, because for some reason I thought standing still was stealthier than moving.
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mps wrote:I don't see how it could possibly be more tedious to have the option to stand still and let them walk away than to be stuck fighting a monster you don't want to because you can't plausibly prevent them from noticing you.
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mps wrote:This would be particularly nice if it negated the armor stealth penalty, since heavy armor characters would at least have one stealth option as opposed to none.
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Sandman25 wrote:That would be very bad gameplay for me - pressing the same button again and again and checking every time "Is the monster adjacent already?"
Lasty wrote:Pollen_Golem wrote:The way Crawl works today, a monster is equally likely to notice you whether you're moving, waiting, or fumbling around in your inventory. This makes it always ideal to move away from a dangerous monster that has not noticed you.
What you propose wouldn't significantly change this. Monsters check stealth after you move, not after they move, so if a monster moves into your LOS, you always get the first action before they detect you, and if you that action is moving out of LOS, the monster will not have noticed you no matter how low your stealth score is.
As a side note, this is the reason that wearing plate armour with no Stealth skill and Ru's Sac Stealth aren't all that painful.
Lasty wrote:I'd think that being stuck fighting a monster you don't want to would be the opposite of tedious. Many of the most interesting situations I find myself in in Crawl involve being stuck fighting a monster I don't want to fight or trying to avoid being stuck fighting a monster I don't want to fight.
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Pollen_Golem wrote:What you are saying makes Crawl sound like a very safe game to play conservatively
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Sandman25 wrote:that's what I was complaining about in CYC.
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Pollen_Golem wrote:Erm... Crawling is dangerous, even if you play conservatively. Angband, from what I've heard, is danger-less if you play conservatively.Sandman25 wrote:that's what I was complaining about in CYC.
In the "follow a bad guide" thread?
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dowan wrote: any more tedious, in a way that the existing stealth mechanics don't already?
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dowan wrote:Can you explain how you think this would make the game any more tedious, in a way that the existing stealth mechanics don't already?
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Sandman25 wrote:instead of pressing . 100 times. Now stealthy characters would need to stay and press . 100 times instead of trying to retreat.
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dowan wrote:But... why? If I can take 2 steps at moderate stealth, and escape LOS, that's still surely better than standing still for an unknown amount of turns at somewhat higher stealth.
And your heavy armor character example already applies to current stealthy characters, doesn't it?
I think 100 times is quite an exaggeration, the monster will surely notice you before then, or will have wandered out of LOS. I guess I see your concern, but it's equally a concern for the existence of stealth in the game at all.
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Sandman25 wrote:when you have no way to retreat but there are a few tiles out of monster's LoS (a corner)
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Sandman25 wrote:Well, if you are going to buff heavy armour characters, [then you'll give them an unfair advantage]
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Sandman25 wrote:Now I think I understand. Let's assume we have 1 monster in LoS and it is 3 tiles away and it has 10% chance to notice character and that pressing '.' decreases the chance by 2%. So player has "choice":
1) move 3 tiles immediately and have 0.9^3 chance to stay unnoticed before it will be able to attack the monster
2) spend 1 turn pressing '.' and have 0.9*0.92^3 chance to stay unnoticed before it will be able to attack the monster
3) spend 2 turns pressing '.' and have 0.9*0.92*0.94^3 chance to stay unnoticed before it will be able to attack the monster.
4) spend 3 turns pressing '.' and so on.
I don't like the "choice", there is always an optimal option and I don't want to spend more time with calculator.
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dowan wrote:If choice a isn't better or worse than choice b, then there's really no choice at all.
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roctavian wrote:There are definitely examples of turn-based games that have "stand still to get more stealth" mechanics, and I think they don't work. I don't think that Brogue has an interesting stealth system at all, even if I like a lot of other things about Brogue.
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