Necromutation ideas

[Bim]

Hello,
I've been playing a few necromancers recently, and on my most recent outing have got necromut. very reliable with a staff of death and lots of intelligence boosting things and I've felt its made me nigh invincible in most areas. I've heard a lot of people say that it shouldn't be nerfed due to the investment required in skills and spell slots, combined with the fact that dispel undead does hideous amounts of damage, but I really haven't found that a problem, especially as I can just duck out when needed and use transmutation as a secondary skill school.

However,

I agree that it shouldn't be nerfed in a traditional sense, but how about if, in keeping with the 'lich' theme and adding some flavour (I really don't know how difficult this would be to code) the more times you cast necromut. the weaker you got out of lich form. It wouldn't have to be that much, just things like the -10% hp mutation or a drop in ev. and ac/str and dex. which get gradually worse and worse after many castings. Furthermore, I think this indebtedness to lich form could go further with, after many, many castings, getting to the point that you would permanently change (possibly with dramatic warnings 'you are becoming more taken over by death' or something after you've cast it alot) into lich form.

These changes would stop making it (as I do now) a constant cast, with healing rot and whatever out of lich form. Plus, it would give the bonus that if you wanted to change into lich form permanently, you could then free the spell slots up (although perhaps perm. lich form might not be as strong as necromut. ?) giving an extra aspect to the spell. I just think this would be great from a flavour side, whilst pulling back the constant cast aspect of the spell, and stopping it being a no-brainer for necromancers.

Perhaps permanent lich form would be too strong, as you would eventually have all the good parts of a mummy with none of the real bad sides, but I think its fairer than pretty much having that now, without any draw backs to casting it. Plus, from a flavour side of it, I think it would be great fun to be able to permanently transform when you get strong enough, as I've always liked that aspect of the myth, and it's something that crawl doesn't really have other than draconian changes.

[galehar]

First, the staff of death doesn't help with the spell success of necromutation. Enhancers (staves and ring of ice/fire) only boost the spell power, not the success.
I agree that permanent lich form is great thematically, but from a gameplay perspective, it doesn't really work.
Very few spells and abilities trade a temporary boost for a permanent cost. The ones that does are life-saving. Necromutation is great, but it's not a life saving spell, and I don't think a permanent cost would help balance it. And I think it's already balanced btw.
Sure it's good, but it has its drawbacks, and it's not a no brainer. High skill investment, no good gods, no potions, no regeneration, vulnerability to dispel undead and holy wrath. And it's very rare. To be able to cast, you have to find it (or ask Kiku).
Torment immunity is probably the most attractive feature of the spell. Getting the golden rune with it is much less frightening (but still far from easy). You can have some pretty decent torment resistance now with statue form (recent trunk addition). Doing Tomb:3 with TSO's angels and statue form can be quite fun (haven't tried it yet). And there's kiku too.

Anyway, before suggesting changes to a spell (or any other feature), we have to start by analyzing what's wrong with it. And I don't think there's anything wrong with this spell. It's probably one of the most balanced and interesting high level spell.

[pratamawirya]

Yeah, Necromut ain't that strong (my latest spectacular YASD taught me that)....

[evilmike]

I gotta agree with galehar, necromutation is a fairly balanced spell, and the way it works right now shouldn't be changed. It's powerful if used right, but can get you killed if used wrong (and I speak from experience, here).

Oh, and I should mention, with extension removed, necromutation did get nerfed indirectly. I used to cast it at Poor (or around that) and then extend it indefinitely, when I wanted hugerless casting or when doing Tomb. Can't exactly do that any more!

[Bim]

I see your point, I guess my play style/choices make it a no-brainer for me, but for players that use good gods etc. it may not be as much of a no brainer.

As an aside, I would very much like to see permanent forms in some sense, but keeping it balanced would be difficult. Just some thoughts anyway.


(and sorry, I meant wizardry staff!)

[galehar]

As an aside, I would very much like to see permanent forms in some sense, but keeping it balanced would be difficult.

The closest thing to permanent forms planned is permanent effect of duration-based spells. It's won't be completely permanent since you'll still have chances of miscasts and ending the spell, but with excellent success, it would be rare and you won't have to recast it all the time to keep it up.

[asdu]

As an aside, I would very much like to see permanent forms in some sense, but keeping it balanced would be difficult.

https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... duration&s

I really hope this gets made in some form, the constant fingerwork to keep buffs active for mid-late game casters is the only thing that makes the pure melee playstyle somewhat attractive for me

edit: ninja'd

[galehar]

I really hope this gets made in some form, the constant fingerwork to keep buffs active for mid-late game casters is the only thing that makes the pure melee playstyle somewhat attractive for me

Well, you don't have to keep all of them active all the time. In hells, you probably want swiftness, flight and necromutation (if you have it), and they all have sufficient duration that keeping them up is not that bad. If you also try to keep Dmsl, Ozo armour and cTele it starts to get really annoying, but it's not really necessary.
Anyway, it will be addressed at some point. Not sure when, since it requires significant coding and balancing.

[Bim]

I like the idea of that, I suppose its pretty close, especially with all of the balancing that's going into it.

[mumra]

Anyway, it will be addressed at some point. Not sure when, since it requires significant coding and balancing.

I was just thinking ... there could just be a configurable option that just pops up a "Recast [x]? [y/n]" every time a buff is about to expire. It's way less annoying than having to press the right letter each time for the expiring buff or creating macros, and shouldn't affect game balance even slightly since it's just giving you an option to do something you could have chosen to do that turn anyway.

[absolutego]

that was my initial idea (all this stuff sounds way too complicated for my taste, and keeping buffs active, while boring, *should* be the responsibility of the player), but it may cause problems in certain scenarios. you may want to recast only with no enemies in sight, but what if you're running away and turn a corner?

if may work if the buffs are recast only when autoexploring. if you want to explore manually you're in a peculiar situation, and the game shouldn't take the liberty to recast anything anyway. i think i'd be ok with that.

[mumra]

Yeah it's most annoying when you're overburdened for your non-Lich form and travelling to or from some distant location; and every time it runs out you get "You are crushed by all your possessions!" Same applies to flying and a few other buffs. When I'm actively exploring or fighting I generally cast buffs now and then as I'm going along without really thinking about it.

[Regnix]

I usually play melee characters, but my last character, a Demonspawn Necromancer (of Ash) got Necromutation (my first time having it) and my impressions were that is was overpowered - or it was for that combo. I already had the demonspawn mutation rN+++ but I found I could keep Necromutation cast indefinitely to cancel out the food clock and mutations(!!) at the expense of not being able to drink potions and only wearing one ring (the other slot was a ring of regen - though I could have used troll leather armour I guess)... wow.

[mumra]

Well that's kind of the point of Necromutation, by the time your character has got that powerful you kind of deserve the privilege of not having to micro-manage food supplies any more. Level 8 Transmutations realistically means that you are so in control of your form that you can completely avoid mutations. Not being able to drink potions is a serious disadvantage meaning you need other forms of backup when things turn bad. And you are especially vulnerable to holy weapons I believe, as I discovered when Mennas nearly wiped out my XL:26 Lich in one hit! That is, not long before a berserk Stone Giant mowed me down in Zot

[Regnix]

As a demonspawn I already had those vulnerabilities, though I guess not being able to use those spells is a bit of a drawback. Completely avoiding mutations is the bit that was surprising for me. I think it will be a while before I play a pure melee character again...

[mikee]

Many people don't seem to realize that functionally what necromutation does is make you into a mummy. If it were called mummy form would as many people think it is OP? =P