Tartarus Sorceror
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DAMAGE IS DOUBLED IN .16
FUTHERMORE, BALLISTOMYCETES MUST BE DESTROYED
- For this message the author Arrhythmia has received thanks:
- moocowmoocow
If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Slime Squisher
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He everyone,
We'd been noticing that the winrate was higher this tournament
compared to last, and recently wheals noticed that damage was doubled
compared to 0.15. The commit that introduced the bug was found to be:
0.17-a0-22-ge0bdd66
http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... bdd66d849c
So player melee damage has been doubled for about two weeks now,
including all of the tournament.
The question is how to resolve this during the tournament. We could:
1) Leave it in-place for the duration of the tournament, and
immediately release 0.16.1 after the tournament ends. We can have the
binaries ready to go hopefully before the actual end so that there's
as little delay as possible.
2) Fix it now, and try to get servers updated quickly. Our South
Korean server (cwz) is hard to get updated since the admin (hong) is
not easy to reach, and we'd certainly have some delay on the Japanese
server (lld), since we have to contact the admin for rebuilds. So if
we did this, it'd be in place on some servers for a while longer
comapred to others, and we're not exactly sure how long it will take
cwz to get updated.
So far elliptic is in favor of (1), reasoning that it's a bit unfair
to change the game so drastically mid-tournament. I don't like leaving
crawl in a broken state for so long, but I don't have any particularly
good reason why we shouldn't do (1).
In either case we'll fix the big in trunk ASAP and will make an
announcement on the tournament page and cdo Wordpress as soon as we've
decided.
So if any developers feel strongly about either option (1) or (2),
please weigh in soon! We'd like to make an announcement for the
benefit of those playing in the tournament who may not have heard
through irc or WebTiles.
-Chris
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Pereza0 wrote:Maybe end this one a bit earlier, make the fixed one a month or some weeks later and then compare the results of the final version to the crazy double damage one. In hindsight it was kind of obvious (it always is isn't it?), short blades suddenly being amazing, a new dude who was posting on /rlg/ transitioned from 0.13 to 0.16 and had a very easy time too
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Grudge wrote:One thing I would like to point out. The dummy commit for 0.17 was made three days before the commit that doubled melee damage.
Actually two things.
Trunk fsim with XL:1 GrFi vs yak
0.16 fsim with the same GrFi and the same yak
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mps wrote:Wow, so melee damage is doubled and most if not all players don't notice the difference?
Says a lot about crawl melee mechanics.
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Yes, I think I neglected to mention that in the CRD post, but lots of people were talking about it. wheals says he noticed it when using axe melee that felt overly strong, and another player ##crawl soon asked if people felt like they were doing more damage in melee, so that's when he decided to check with fsim. But even that wasn't the only mention of it and we got lots of responses that people felt their attacks were stronger.
It's more that very few people go report bugs, even ones that outright crash their game repeatedly. This one made the player stronger, so it's even less likely to get reported.
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wheals wrote:If QuAd DaMaGe MaKeS eVeRy LeTtEr UpPeRcAsE, sHoUlDn'T dOuBlE dAmAgE mAkE eVeRy OtHeR LeTtEr UpPeRcAsE?
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Hirsch I wrote:is this issue fixed in trunk?
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duvessa wrote:It's counterintuitive that damage is randomized?
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Scalding Steam wrote:Having a damage formula so unbelievably complicated that fsim becomes the easiest way to determine whether melee damage has been doubled sounds rather counterintuitive to me.
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mps wrote:The problem isn't the information given to the player. Yes, obviously the bug would have been noticed sooner, but the interesting thing is that it's not easy to tell the difference without the numbers. This suggests the mechanics are very loosely tuned, hard to analyze, and therefore difficult to discuss in relation to issues of design and balance.
Discussions on crawl design and advice that devolve into "no true statements about crawl" arguments are a reflection of peculiar random systems like this one.
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XuaXua wrote:I smell a quintuple-damage deployment for early April.
Shoals Surfer
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Pereza0 wrote:Yeah they are. But in practice its basically displaying the numbers, but instead of just displaying them you make them even more unintelligible by assigning them exclamation marks (based on an undisclosed, arbitrary rule).
Its good in the sense it avoids overwhelming the player with numbers (which is one of the things I like about Crawl). The bad thing is that the information is basically lost when you give it in that format.
Dungeon Master
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mps wrote:Lots of people can notice something and still not constitute most people. Berder's suggestion that it's easy not to notice the difference between 4 hits and 2 hits isn't quite the point, imo. The point is that the likelihood of your attacks that do a nontrivial/nonzero amount of damage actually killing something is improved in a way that's not readily noticeable to many players by doubling the damage they do. Spikiness in combat damage disguises the underlying mechanics to such an extent that doubling the absolute amount of damage is not readily noticed by a typical player.
I think it's strange that doubling the absolute amount of damage a player does in combat is not an immediately obvious effect for most players. I think it's doubly strange that I seem to be in the minority in thinking that.
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Lasty wrote:I have a hammer. In an unrelated story, look at all the nails around here.
Barkeep
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mps wrote:Lasty wrote:I have a hammer. In an unrelated story, look at all the nails around here.
Yes, you do.
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duvessa wrote:Isn't making damage difficult for humans to determine kind of the entire point of Crawl's melee damage mechanics?
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duvessa wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_rSzkAWckY
duvessa wrote:https://youtu.be/DIXyDl56DGQ?t=1m50s
duvessa wrote:https://youtu.be/GbGE4cLobVo?t=12s
duvessa wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZYlRjQhFYY
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