gammafunk wrote:- Code:
<gammafunk> !lg greaterplayers recent !boring !experimental cls!=be|ak|he|dk god!= god!=jiyva|beogh|lugonu urune<=3 s=god / won o=%
<Sequell> 1061/6204 games for greaterplayers (recent !boring !experimental cls!=be|ak|he|dk god!= god!=jiyva|beogh|lugonu urune<=3): 115/424x Ashenzari [27.12%], 63/250x Trog [25.20%], 53/221x Ru [23.98%], 76/325x Dithmenos [23.38%], 54/239x Qazlal [22.59%], 76/378x Vehumet [20.11%], 168/871x Okawaru [19.29%], 46/247x Fedhas [18.62%], 86/463x Makhleb [18.57%], 35/189x Nemelex Xobeh [18.52%], 12/65x Yredelemnul [18.46%], 10/62x Elyvilon [16.13%], 71/513x Cheibriados [13.84%], 20/157x Zin [12.74%], 41/329x Kikubaaqudgha [12.46%], 28/236x Sif Muna [11.86%], 12/105x The Shining One [11.43%], 22/225x Gozag [9.78%], 73/905x Xom [8.07%]
No. 2 doesn't look very middle of the pack to me. Filter out boring games, games with non-temple gods, experimental games, and games going for more than 3 runes, and you don't even have to worry about speedruns (and excluding them probably would help Trog's winrate, since he's a favorite speedrun god yet speedruns have higher risk).
That's a flawed query. The practice of restricting to urune<=3 doesn't do what you think it does. Suppose you take a god pre-lair, such as Vehumet, and plan to go for 15 runes or bust. If you die with <=3 runes, your death counts
against Vehumet in your query. But if you win, it
never counts for Vehumet in that query, because if you win you'll have had 15 runes! Your query therefore has a bias for gods that people 3-rune with, and a bias against gods that people take pre-lair but continue to do more runes with. This bias favors Trog.
"But," you might protest, "what about the gods that people switch to for the extended endgame?" Yes, that is a problem, but there are other ways to compensate for it. The simplest way is just to discount the traditional extended endgame gods (makhleb, tso, zin, jiyva). A more complex query could try to look at when you worshiped the god and whether you switched. It would also be more accurate to look at / urune>=3 rather than / won, so that deaths in extended don't count against a god.
If we redo your query without that urune<=3 this is what we see:
- Code:
<halberd> !lg greaterplayers recent !boring !experimental cls!=be|ak|he|dk god!= god!=jiyva|beogh|lugonu s=god / won o=%
<Sequell> 1653/6890 games for greaterplayers (recent !boring !experimental cls!=be|ak|he|dk god!= god!=jiyva|beogh|lugonu): 74/182x The Shining One [40.66%], 165/484x Ashenzari [34.09%], 146/457x Vehumet [31.95%], 77/248x Ru [31.05%], 113/364x Dithmenos [31.04%], 81/268x Qazlal [30.22%], 82/275x Trog [29.82%], 150/539x Makhleb [27.83%], 44/182x Zin [24.18%], 48/204x Nemelex Xobeh [23.53%], 216/923x Okawaru
<Sequell> [23.40%], 16/70x Yredelemnul [22.86%], 58/261x Fedhas [22.22%], 74/364x Kikubaaqudgha [20.33%], 13/65x Elyvilon [20.00%], 112/565x Cheibriados [19.82%], 47/259x Sif Muna [18.15%], 33/239x Gozag [13.81%], 104/941x Xom [11.05%]
We see that Ash, Veh, Ru, Dith, and Qaz all come out ahead of Trog. None of those gods are often switched to for extended; the reason they came behind in your query is that flawed urune<=3 condition.
Also, you're right that speedrunners are a problem and may make Trog place unfairly low. Let's redo that query with "tenpercenters," who are greatplayers with winrate>=10%. tenpercenters probably don't do very much speedrunning - at any rate less speedrunning than greatplayers who aren't tenpercenters.
- Code:
<halberd> !lg tenpercenters recent !boring !experimental cls!=be|ak|he|dk god!= god!=jiyva|beogh|lugonu s=god / won o=%
<Sequell> 871/2155 games for tenpercenters (recent !boring !experimental cls!=be|ak|he|dk god!= god!=jiyva|beogh|lugonu): 48/76x The Shining One [63.16%], 34/67x Ru [50.75%], 67/133x Dithmenos [50.38%], 78/155x Ashenzari [50.32%], 80/170x Vehumet [47.06%], 32/69x Trog [46.38%], 90/199x Makhleb [45.23%], 35/79x Fedhas [44.30%], 23/52x Zin [44.23%], 6/14x Elyvilon [42.86%], 31/74x Qazlal [41.89%], 24/59x
<Sequell> Nemelex Xobeh [40.68%], 14/35x Gozag [40.00%], 52/132x Kikubaaqudgha [39.39%], 111/284x Okawaru [39.08%], 11/32x Yredelemnul [34.38%], 40/123x Cheibriados [32.52%], 30/103x Sif Muna [29.13%], 65/299x Xom [21.74%]
Trog still places behind Ru, Dith, Ash, and Veh. With the / urune>=3 condition instead of / won, he would also place behind Mak (though we should possibly discount mak, as he may count as a god many people switch to).
On the subject of Trog's abilities other than early game berserk, I don't think they are hugely strong compared to other gods. Brothers in arms are nice, sure. Okawaru more than doubles your combat effectiveness when his abilities are used. Dithmenos helps you completely avoid fights, and gives you passive boosts (umbra and shadow mimic) that might amount to as much as +50% combat effectiveness
all the time on some characters. A mage with veh is able to stay in a fight much longer than a mage without veh. Not only does mak give you silly amounts of healing, he can summon greater demons that are just as good if not better than BiA (unless hostile). As far as "kill everything" goes, Qaz's disaster area is far more effective in the right scenario than a BiA or two. And then there's Ru.