Snake Sneak
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God Tier List/showcase of amazing MSPaint skills
if you need a reminder as to what altar tiles go with which gods:
http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... ngn/altars
Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.
Snake Sneak
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Snake Sneak
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Snake Sneak
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duvessa wrote:Ok I'll assume this isn't 100% a joke.
I think I'd rather do panhelltomb with any of those 'E's (or any other god) than chei. Not seeing how you can put beogh above fedhas/yred/trog there either.
Snake Sneak
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wizzzargh wrote:I would boost Yrednoodle up to A or even S tier for the early game. I'm not even considering any abilities beyond Animate Dead, it's just that Zombies are really good at providing almost 100% reliable escapes in resource poor environs, scale in power as you kill tougher things, and and unlike the corpse-saccing Trog and Fedhas, you can turn almost every single corpse you make into a permanent summon. They might not have the raw power of a Berserk Whatever or the multiple-floor capability of wandering mushrooms, but they have unrelenting numbers that don't cost piety to create.
Snake Sneak
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Sandman25 wrote:Is the ranking for melee character?
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<halberd> !lm * god.worship place=(D:1|D:2|D:3|D:4|D:5|D:6|D:7|D:8|D:9|Temple) s=noun xl<12 cv>=0.16-a !zealot
<Sequell> 58626 milestones for * (god.worship place=(D:1|D:2|D:3|D:4|D:5|D:6|D:7|D:8|D:9|Temple) xl<12 cv>=0.16-a !zealot): 11753x Okawaru, 6858x Vehumet, 4491x Cheibriados, 4115x Ru, 3875x Sif Muna, 3870x Ashenzari, 3832x Makhleb, 3289x Qazlal, 3174x Dithmenos, 2092x Kikubaaqudgha, 2016x Gozag, 1662x the Shining One, 1429x Trog, 1412x Nemelex Xobeh, 1023x Beogh, 1023x Fedhas, 780x Zin, 552x Yredelemnul,
<Sequell> 545x Xom, 445x Elyvilon, 124x Jiyva, 122x Pakellas, 89x Wulndraste, 55x Lugonu
<halberd> !lm * br.enter=lair s=god cv>=0.16-a !zealot
<Sequell> 21657 milestones for * (br.enter=lair cv>=0.16-a !zealot): 4100x Okawaru, 2904x Vehumet, 1463x Ashenzari, 1424x Sif Muna, 1406x Ru, 1400x Cheibriados, 1366x Makhleb, 1118x Dithmenos, 1104x Qazlal, 1047x, 771x Kikubaaqudgha, 689x Gozag, 517x Trog, 501x The Shining One, 398x Nemelex Xobeh, 334x Fedhas, 323x Beogh, 239x Zin, 157x Yredelemnul, 125x Elyvilon, 115x Xom, 53x Pakellas, 40x Wulndraste,
<Sequell> 38x Jiyva, 25x Lugonu
Xom 0.211009174312 ( 115 / 545 )
Elyvilon 0.280898876404 ( 125 / 445 )
Nemelex 0.281869688385 ( 398 / 1412 )
Yredelemnul 0.284420289855 ( 157 / 552 )
the Shining One 0.301444043321 ( 501 / 1662 )
Zin 0.30641025641 ( 239 / 780 )
Jiyva 0.306451612903 ( 38 / 124 )
Cheibriados 0.311734580272 ( 1400 / 4491 )
Beogh 0.315738025415 ( 323 / 1023 )
Fedhas 0.326490713587 ( 334 / 1023 )
Qazlal 0.335664335664 ( 1104 / 3289 )
Ru 0.341676792224 ( 1406 / 4115 )
Gozag 0.341765873016 ( 689 / 2016 )
Okawaru 0.348847102867 ( 4100 / 11753 )
Dithmenos 0.352236925016 ( 1118 / 3174 )
Makhleb 0.356471816284 ( 1366 / 3832 )
Trog 0.361791462561 ( 517 / 1429 )
Sif Muna 0.367483870968 ( 1424 / 3875 )
Kikubaaqudgha 0.368546845124 ( 771 / 2092 )
Ashenzari 0.378036175711 ( 1463 / 3870 )
Vehumet 0.423447069116 ( 2904 / 6858 )
Pakellas 0.434426229508 ( 53 / 122 ) (untrustworthy because new)
Wulndraste 0.449438202247 ( 40 / 89 ) (untrustworthy because new)
Lugonu 0.454545454545 ( 25 / 55 ) (an untrustworthy result because he's most often taken in the abyss)
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Snake Sneak
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Arrhythmia wrote:lol @ the very concept of putting chei anywhere but the SSS rank
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<gammafunk> !lm goodplayers god.worship current trunk (( br=D lvl<=9 || br=temple )) xl<=12 !zealot !boring lg:urune<=5 s=noun / (( won || lg:br!=D|ossuary|sewer )) o=%
00:42 <Sequell> 4925/10349 milestones for goodplayers (god.worship current trunk ((br=D lvl<=9 || br=temple)) xl<=12 !zealot !boring lg:urune<=5): 15/24x Jiyva [62.50%], 180/318x Trog [56.60%],
142/258x Fedhas [55.04%], 615/1121x Vehumet [54.86%], 217/404x Qazlal [53.71%], 406/804x Ashenzari [50.50%], 417/839x Ru [49.70%], 361/727x Sif Muna [49.66%], 228/460x Dithmenos
[49.57%], 234/477x Kikubaaqudgha [49.06%],
00:42 <Sequell> 56/117x Yredelemnul [47.86%], 341/722x Makhleb [47.23%], 43/93x Beogh [46.24%], 847/1840x Okawaru [46.03%], 200/479x Gozag [41.75%], 71/179x the Shining One [39.66%], 96/249x
Nemelex Xobeh [38.55%], 71/190x Zin [37.37%], 32/86x Xom [37.21%], 332/894x Cheibriados [37.14%], 17/51x Elyvilon [33.33%], 4/17x Lugonu [23.53%]
Mines Malingerer
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DrKe wrote:(tier S A B C D E)
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DDDD wrote:DrKe wrote:(tier S A B C D E)
Do you dance on competitions?
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Berder wrote:you aren't backed by numbers
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Sar wrote:Berder wrote:you aren't backed by numbers
Statistically Chei is one of the most popular (the most popular???) gods for Nagas and Transmuters. As such, there is quite a lot of Chei wins.
I guess that does mean Chei is amazingly strong or something because numbers can't lie.
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Snake Sneak
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Berder wrote:Sar wrote:Berder wrote:you aren't backed by numbers
Statistically Chei is one of the most popular (the most popular???) gods for Nagas and Transmuters. As such, there is quite a lot of Chei wins.
I guess that does mean Chei is amazingly strong or something because numbers can't lie.
That's not even logical. Go away. Stop stretching for absurd points of contention with me.
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DrKe wrote:how about you go away and stop shitting up my thread
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Snake Sneak
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Bloax wrote:Chei makes good combos amazing and bad combos absolutely terrible, with some variations depending on exactly what kind of character we're talking about.
(He's much better for early melee than for early conjuration guys if only because the latter benefit a lot more from being able to run away.)
Once you're in or past lair he becomes very strong, however.
at least if you know the proper chei game (managing a large piety buffer for slouching your way out of complete tactical failures helps a lot)
i do agree that he's pretty shitty in extended but it's not like it really matters because why would you do extended
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Bloax wrote:He's much better for early melee than for early conjuration guys if only because the latter benefit a lot more from being able to run away.
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Snake Sneak
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Sandman25 wrote:I would put Zin above Sif Muna for early game. Disabling multiple monsters is much better than slow channeling.
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Sandman25 wrote:I would put Makhleb in the same category with Kiku for middle game if we talking about all characters. Makhleb is better for high AC characters, Kiku is better for spellcasters. Animate Dead is only level 4 spell and Kiku protects from miscasts so it is not that hard to cast the spell even for melee characters. Request Corpses/Animate Dead/Simulacrum/Death Channel makes many levels extremely easy, there is nothing like that with Makhleb.
Snake Sneak
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XuaXua wrote:All this chart did for me was make it clear how similar the altars for Dith and Yred are.
Also, what's the altar with the big grey X on it?
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Sar wrote:Bloax wrote:He's much better for early melee than for early conjuration guys if only because the latter benefit a lot more from being able to run away.
would you rather play a HOSu of Chei or a HOFi of Chei
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Abominae wrote:I have no idea why Yred isn't S considering the god plays an entire 3 rune game for you.
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Sar wrote:Bloax wrote:He's much better for early melee than for early conjuration guys if only because the latter benefit a lot more from being able to run away.
would you rather play a HOSu of Chei or a HOFi of Chei
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Lasty wrote:I think I'd probably make the following swaps from the initial chart:
Prelair: I'd sort this by how well the god guarantees Lair, so S rank is Trog/Fedhas/Ely, A rank is Lucy/Okawaru/maybe Kiku, Rank D is slow growers like Sif/TSO/Ash, rank E is actively harmful gods like Xom/Chei, and rank C is everyone else, who are fine gods but don't do all that much before Lair.
Lair through 3 rune:
Things get a little harder here. It doesn't make sense to abandon your prelair god for a post-lair 3-rune game, so separating the pre-lair and post-lair lists is tricky. I suppose the metric is "if you're already past Lair, what god gives you the best chance to successfully ascend a 3-rune character, given a character that plays to the god's strengths?" Given that, I'd revise as follows:
S: Gods that more or less guarantee you have the tools needed to survive and win this chunk of the game: Makh, Ash, Ru, Dith, Qaz
A: Gods that give you tools that make it very hard to die but which may not give you quite the same level of support as S: Zin, Ely, Kiku, Lugonu, Trog, Veh
B: Gods that do a decent job overall, but with some weak spots over the 3 Rune game: Yred, Beogh, Okawaru, Fedhas
C: Gods that are fine but not particularly remarkable in a 3-rune game: Sif, TSO, Chei, Nem, Jiyva
E: Gods that actively harm you: Xom
This list may be more YMMV than the pre-lair list.
Extended:
This looks about right to me, but I'd bump Dith up to rank A.
Note: I've never played Beogh, and I don't like new-Nem, so I tried to leave those about where they were on your chart. I could be way off with those two.
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Lasty wrote:A: Gods that give you tools that make it very hard to die but which may not give you quite the same level of support as S: Zin, Ely, Kiku, Lugonu, Trog, Veh
B: Gods that do a decent job overall, but with some weak spots over the 3 Rune game: Yred, Beogh, Okawaru, Fedhas
Crypt Cleanser
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Wahaha wrote:Ely is pretty horrible compared to Trog and Fedhas so definitely not S tier. I think Ely should be in B because the abilities require a significant amount of invo to work and still aren't that great (because you haven't started as He). Pacification encourages you to invest heavily into invo if you want to pacify humanoid enemies that are dangerous. If you're not able to pacify an enemy, then you're a lot weaker against it than a character of many other gods because your xp is in invo and not combat skills. Even with heavy investment pacification is unreliable while abilities like berserk, mushrooms and heroism always provide their boost. If you don't invest heavily into invo then why did you pick this god, if you can only pacify weak/average animals? The self-heal heals around the same as a potion of curing at 7 invo, unimpressive. I have little experience with picking Ely so my opinion is not reliable, I'll have to actually play a game to confirm the above.
Snake Sneak
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Sprucery wrote:Lasty wrote:A: Gods that give you tools that make it very hard to die but which may not give you quite the same level of support as S: Zin, Ely, Kiku, Lugonu, Trog, Veh
B: Gods that do a decent job overall, but with some weak spots over the 3 Rune game: Yred, Beogh, Okawaru, Fedhas
Okawaru's +5 to fighting skills is great even in the later parts of a 3-rune game, because you save a lot of exp and can use more exp for magic. That + Finesse + gifts -> I'd put Okawaru in A.
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DrKe wrote:i think it's safe to assume you mean midgame tier, ok
1. Yred is not that fast, undead army doesn't start steamrolling until post-orc mines typically, and he's worse than the gods that are higher tier than him during that time period
DrKe wrote:2. it's quite possible to lose your army later on or not build up a powerful one to begin with if you are weak during the building up period
DrKe wrote:3. the list assumes optimal play, as opposed to which god is the hardest to screw up, and its entirely possible to screw up yred regardless. also i know more than one good player who finds yred very tedious to play due to optimizing recalls rather than having the whole army follow you at all times. so even if i was making a lowest effort to win god list i wouldn't put yred at the top
DrKe wrote:so sure, yred can "play a 3 rune game for you" but that's both subjective and not the criteria i'm using
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Abominae wrote:you're welcome to attempt a contradiction to that.
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celem wrote:Pretty good list when it comes to early/3-rune. Extended is,,,extended.
Will say Ash at D early bothers me. The two major milestones on this god are at 2 and 3 star (skillboost on curse and Clar/SInv intrinsic) On top of that the intrinsic id speeds up your earlygame gear acquisition and the detect monster ability keeps you out of rough fights. The other reason I consider Ash an 'easy' god is that hes never an outright bad choice, will apply to absolutely any character build of any species pretty equally. Perhaps a B/C looking at the other gods and where they are sitting.
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and into wrote:Since this was posted in DCA, I assume it is meant at least in part to give useful advice to people who are not (yet) familiar with gods. So I'm not really sure if Jiyva and Lugonu fit on this at all, since outside of rare ET vaults you don't get to worship them early at all, and waiting to worship them eventually is a bad idea if you want to win.
Lugonu is also a starting god but then you are looking at a particular background that comes coupled with a religion on turn 1, which is different from an unknown background worshiped at some point before D9. And speaking of which, really the ~optimal~ thing is probably to worship at an early altar to any strong god that is reasonable for your species/background. It is fine as a theoretical discussion, or whatever, but I don't think the image in the OP is actually helpful as far as giving advice is concerned. Having multiple ranks for different areas of the game conflates a lot (not all areas of the game are equally important, god wrath tends to be bad so you usually shouldn't switch anyway, etc.)
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and into wrote:And speaking of which, really the ~optimal~ thing is probably to worship at an early altar to any strong god that is reasonable for your species/background.
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gammafunk wrote:I don't know what these tiers are actually supposed to mean given specialization of gods wrt backgrounds, and I'm not sure we could ever reasonably agree on a definition, especially with something like C vs D. For instance Lasty says that for pre-lair "Rank D is slow growers like Sif/TSO/Ash", but this doesn't really make sense to me. I'm more likely to make it to lair with Sif than I am with Veh, despite the fact that Sif gifts nothing until max piety and hence "grows slowly". That's just because I have to use a book start with Sif, so my L1-4 spells in any starting book are easily enough to make it to lair in terms of damage output, so having mp-on-demand is one of the most useful things I could have. Wizardry from Veh is useful this early, but I'll generally benefit more from casting my more usable spells again than I will trying to cast the higher-level ones much earlier at low power.
Ru is much more a slow-growing god in that you can get extremely modest returns at * and **; I think Ru powers don't kick in much until right around when you're getting to Lair. Someone was saying early Zin recite is so good, but its utility is tied to a different set of chars than either Veh or Sif, and even stretching things to make the comparison between recite and channel, the latter is way more reliable. I think many of the details in a ranking like this will have a very large component based on what character we're talking about and just how many games we've actually played with the god for the same or a similar character.
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