I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Saturday, 29th November 2014, 20:48

I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

I'm sure I have read somewhere in the dev blog or whatever that wanderers were changed to get better starting gear and skills - but they seem to have also got more random.

You used to get skills that were at least slightly related to the equipment you got, so if you had a spear you would get some polearms etc, but now it just seems to be crazy random shit like level 5 spellcasting and no spells. Maybe you get more stuff than you used to, but definitely not more useful

I guess there are probably some really powerful starts for wanderers now, if the skills happen to coincide with both aptitudes and gear, but at the moment it seems designed to encourage start scumming

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1050

Joined: Thursday, 12th June 2014, 05:19

Post Saturday, 29th November 2014, 23:35

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

Wanderers no longer start with spells memorized, but instead sometimes have randbooks with a couple of low-level spells.

Possibly that's what's confusing you?

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Sunday, 30th November 2014, 11:10

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

I've also had characters start with a lot of their starting skills in spellcasting and/or magic schools but no book or memorised spells, which seems a bit silly.

It just seems like the starting skills are more randomised compared to what equipment you get compared to the old wanderers. (I've also had starting shields skill but no shield and evocations with no evocable item.) Probably the clustering illusion is responsible, but it would be nice if wanderers got gear that was more related to their skills.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Sunday, 30th November 2014, 23:57

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

Wanderers were slightly buffed on average, but the changes weren't meant to buff them, they were meant to even out and diversify the starting equipment packages. Wanderer skills haven't been touched in a long time -- they've always been haphazard and unpredictable. I'm not against changing them, and if you had a proposal on the subject I'd be interested to hear it.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Monday, 1st December 2014, 11:21

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

It's hard to think of a useful suggestion as I don't know the exact details of how starting gear and skills are calculated at present, just experience of having played wanderers quite a lot.

I'll have a go anyway, but this is just what I think would make them more enjoyable as a background.

1. If they start with a high level of a skill, they should get an appropriate item. This is especially relevant to Spellcasting, as by itself it doesn't actually do anything. It can be quite frustrating to start with Spellcasting as the highest skill but no books. By "high" I guess I mean 3 or greater.

2. They should get at least one offensive skill, along with an appropriate item. This could be a weapon skill, evocations with a wand or a magic skill with an appropriate book, I guess unarmed combat could work too.

3. Starting weapons could be better weighted towards species aptitudes.

Maybe one approach could be to choose starting equipment randomly first, and then choose skills based on that, heavily weighted towards the equipment given. OR choose skills first and then give equipment to match. I guess something like this happens already, as if you have a weapon, it does seem like you are more likely to have skill with that than with other weapons.

It would just be nice to try to reduce the kind of starts like a HEWn with 5 levels of Spellcasting, 2.5 Charms, no book and a zero skill mace that you can't hit anything with.

tl:dr version - If the highest starting skill is magical you should start with a book, and you should always start with some skill in something that kills things.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4361

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Monday, 1st December 2014, 11:30

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

Is a book required or would a memorized spell suffice? I'm currently playing a MfWn that started with Corona memorised along with some spell skills. I kind of like that Wanderers can start with a spell but no book, it makes them more special.
DCSS: 79: ...{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCK
SpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE
{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAK
Bloat: 4: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2221

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Monday, 1st December 2014, 11:31

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

One of the biggest flaw from my experience is when they start with nothing good but 3 different plain base type weapons. What's the point? Unless silly apt (like Mf) players will always go with the best weapon they have and throw away the rest - while suffering under than average starting equipment, nothing special in inventory and skill all over the board
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Monday, 1st December 2014, 11:59

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

This is a bit of a digression from the original topic, but something I do like about the new wanderers is the chance to start with a random book. I think it's a nice idea to be able to start with combinations of spells that are not in any of the standard starting books.

I'm not sure how random they can be as I haven't seen many of them yet, but this does give me an idea:

I wonder if there is room for a separate background, called "Librarian" or something, that is focussed around starting with spellcasting and a book of random level 1-3 spells, not necessarily of related schools. Kind of like a wizard, except you don't know what spells you will get. Would they be different enough from wanderers? (you would be guaranteed to start with spells but no weapons.) I guess you'd have to make sure there was at least one level 1 attack spell in the book or they might end up unplayable.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1205

Joined: Friday, 8th November 2013, 17:02

Post Monday, 1st December 2014, 13:48

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

It would be nice if the wanderer loadout were a little more focused, meaning no more than 1 item for any given slot, and skills that are compatible with the items and spells they have.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Monday, 1st December 2014, 15:37

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

Jeremiah wrote:Maybe one approach could be to choose starting equipment randomly first, and then choose skills based on that, heavily weighted towards the equipment given.


This.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Monday, 1st December 2014, 16:15

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

It sounds like there's a little confusion over how the selection process works, so let me explain in more detail:

1: a "primary" and "secondary" role are chosen.
Stats are randomly assigned, and a "role" of str, dex, and int is chosen randomly by stat weight. 5 levels are distributed among skills related to the primary role, and 3 are distributed among skills related to the secondary role. The same role can be chosen both times.

To distribute these skills, a weapon is chosen based on role. Str weapons are axes, M&F, bows, and crossbows. Dex weapons are short blades, long blades, staves, unarmed combat, and polearms. Int weapons are spell schools. A choice is made from the skills appropriate to the role weighted by your aptitude in each skill. If the role is Int, a second weapon select is done and stored as "spell2".

Then, for each skill level assigned by that role, you pick randomly from a list of skills: for Dex, 1/3 Fighting, 1/3rd chosen weapon, 1/6 Dodging, 1/6 Stealth; for Str 1/3 Fighting, 1/3 chosen weapon, 1/3 Armour; for Int 1/3 spellcasting, 1/3 chosen spell 1, 1/3 chosen spell 2. Then, if you're a felid, the skill is overriden to unarmed combat in some cases.

2: utility skills are assigned
1 skill level is added to two skills chosen from Throwing, Stealth, Shields, and Evocations randomly and weighted by aptitude. The same skill can be chosen twice.

3: a weighted random skill is chosen and given a "good" item.
Any skill with at least 1 skill level is an option, and the more levels of it you have the more likely it is to be chosen. Good items include +2 weapons, blowgun + curare needles, "good" wands, evokables, "good" potions and scrolls, starting books, +2 scale mail, +2 leather or +0 leather and nets, or a shield (or buckler for spriggans).

4: a "role" skill is chosen and given a "decent" item.
The role weapon selection process is repeated and used to create a decent item. Decent weapons are +0, or blowgun and needles, or a randart spellbook with exactly two spells that total at most 4 spell levels. All spells in the spellbook will participate in the chosen spell school.

5: a second weighted random skill is chosen and given a "decent" item
In addition to the above options, this can include +0 ring mail, a buckler (or shield for large races), a wand of random effects, or "decent" potions and scrolls.

6: if the wanderer has no weapon, they are given a club or dagger. If they have no armour, they are given a robe.

That describes the wanderer creation process in trunk as it currently stands.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks: 4
damiac, Jeremiah, Sprucery, XuaXua

Halls Hopper

Posts: 68

Joined: Friday, 3rd January 2014, 22:52

Post Tuesday, 2nd December 2014, 09:07

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

This seems backwards, isn't it? Even from a flavor point: you first find you items and then build your character based on that. Also, it's easier to distribute exp than to pick the right weapon randomly.
That's a silly name!
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Tuesday, 2nd December 2014, 15:27

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

Slap and stab wrote:This seems backwards, isn't it? Even from a flavor point: you first find you items and then build your character based on that. Also, it's easier to distribute exp than to pick the right weapon randomly.


Well, they have the right idea on the attributes. You start the game with attributes based on your species+type combo.

I tried reworking it a bit, but the only thing I could think of is if you get a Transmutations spell, you should also consider allocating skill to Unarmed Combat.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2169

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Tuesday, 2nd December 2014, 21:08

Re: I thought wanderers were meant to have been buffed?..

So, in short: you are quite likely to get some weapon skill (or spell school), but you are quite unlikely to get a weapon for your skill (or a spellbook). Pretty weird system.

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.