holy launchers

[starless]

Can these be generated in the game, or is it only possible to obtain through TSO?

[n1000]

The latter

[starless]

I was suspecting so, but never understood why that is.
If melee weapons can be generated with holy brand, why not launchers as well?

Seems unfair that Demigods can never obtain a holy launcher.

[Greyr]

I'm of the opinion that HW should be removed entirely outside of TSO's blessing.

[MrRokkomies]

I'm of the opinion that HW should be removed entirely outside of TSO's blessing.

I disagree. Having a trivial monster whack you with a HW weapon when you are vulnerable to it makes the game that much more interesting. Keeping an eye on the brands that are used against you should be kept relevant. Also one of Ashes features is warning about dangerous weapons in the hands of your enemies.

[starless]

I'm of the opinion that HW should be removed entirely outside of TSO's blessing.

Well that would be more consistent.
Either you can get it ONLY through TSO, or ANY weapon type should have a chance of being generated with the brand, not only melee.

[daggaz]

Considering its additive and not multiplicative, who cares? A vorpal launcher is going to outshine it most of the time, right? And then you can stack it with say freezing/flaming/penetrative ammo or whatnot.

[Sar]

Holy wrath is and always was multiplicative, it was great in old ranged (one-shotting balrgus woo) and is probably great in new ranged as well.

[starless]

A vorpal launcher is going to outshine it most of the time, right?

Well yes, unless you go for the extended.

[daggaz]

Holy wrath is and always was multiplicative, it was great in old ranged (one-shotting balrgus woo) and is probably great in new ranged as well.

Huh. Color me wrong, have gone around this whole time thinking it was an additive.

[Sar]

Adds 75% damage on average (flame/freeze adds 25%, to compare). Pretty good.

[Sandman25]

I'm of the opinion that HW should be removed entirely outside of TSO's blessing.

I disagree. Having a trivial monster whack you with a HW weapon when you are vulnerable to it makes the game that much more interesting. Keeping an eye on the brands that are used against you should be kept relevant. Also one of Ashes features is warning about dangerous weapons in the hands of your enemies.

We can have monsters with holy weapon but still unable to use such weapon as player. Or even better:
"Kikubaaqudgha will get angry if you wield the holy weapon. Your current god (Okawaru) cannot protect you from the wrath. Really wield it? y/N"
If you insist on wielding the weapon, you experience the same consequences as if you have just abandoned Kikubaaqudgha. The warning does not happen for players with TSO/Zin/Ely.

[Sar]

Why would Kiku ever get angry at a holy weapon? Kiku's chill.

[1010011010]

Sandman25 just took the no.1 "most post" position. congrats.

And that's a bad idea, seems like weird special case, besides Kik's in the same pantheon as TSO, s/he wouldn't care that much about a weapon an okawarian is wielding.

[Greyr]

I'm of the opinion that HW should be removed entirely outside of TSO's blessing.

I disagree. Having a trivial monster whack you with a HW weapon when you are vulnerable to it makes the game that much more interesting. Keeping an eye on the brands that are used against you should be kept relevant. Also one of Ashes features is warning about dangerous weapons in the hands of your enemies.

Well the problem with that is the same could've been said for the Orc/dragon slaying and disruption brand. Which, as you know, are now artifact exclusive.

In most cases a HW branded weapon won't kill an undead player directly- bad playing will. HW acts as a "I'll hold on until this for later" weapon. Not really interesting or svelte design wise to have one brand that is only interesting (<used loosely) 15% of the time and only useful for optional content of the game.

Idk, it seems clunky to me

[Psiweapon]

guys it's not like demons and the undead are exclusive to extended...

[and into]

Sandman25 just took the no.1 "most post" position. congrats.

And that's a bad idea, seems like weird special case, besides Kik's in the same pantheon as TSO, s/he wouldn't care that much about a weapon an okawarian is wielding.

Spoiler: show

Although, to be fair, I think minmay would be number 1, if not for... The incident...

[Sandman25]

Sandman25 just took the no.1 "most post" position. congrats.

And that's a bad idea, seems like weird special case, besides Kik's in the same pantheon as TSO, s/he wouldn't care that much about a weapon an okawarian is wielding.

Spoiler: show

Although, to be fair, I think minmay would be number 1, if not for... The incident...

Spoiler: show

You've just made me a bit happier. I don't like that I spend so much time on crawl but I do have an excuse that I am alone in a foreign country for more than an year (with 1.5 months break) and I feel lack of communication in real life

[Greyr]

-deleted-

[njvack]

Sandman25 just took the no.1 "most post" position. congrats.

Spoiler: show

Although, to be fair, I think minmay would be number 1, if not for... The incident...

I still wonder WTF happened there.

But anyhow, you've got a ways to catch crate. And I think Grimm is still quite a ways on top of the heap.

/me pours a sip on the concrete

[duvessa]

You think melee weapons, but not launchers, generating with holy wrath is bad? How about this:
- Maces, great maces, flails, dire flails, and hammers all get the same brands. Morningstars, however, get those brands plus an extra chance of getting venom/flaming/freezing/vampiric if they fail to roll a brand.
- Falchions, long swords, and scimitars have a chance of getting the pain brand; other non-demon long blades do not. Falchions and long swords - but not scimitars - have a chance of getting venom.
- All axes can get holy wrath or draining...except for hand axes.
- All polearms can get holy wrath or protection...except for spears.
- Whips (not demon whips) have a completely different brand roll from any other weapon.
- Launchers other than blowguns always get the same brand roll, unless it's a triple crossbow, in which case the chance of getting a brand is doubled.
- Daggers, but not short swords and rapiers, can generate with pain. Short swords and rapiers can generate with venom, however, daggers have an extra chance of getting venom if they don't roll another brand.
- Quarterstaves, like whips, have a completely different brand roll from any other weapon.
- So do lajatangs. No, it's nothing like the quarterstaff one.
- Finally, all of this can be upended if the weapon was generated as equipment for certain monsters. You probably know Pikel gets flaming/freezing/elec, Sonja gets distortion/venom/draining, Psyche gets chaos/distortion, and Crazy Yiuf get chaos. If you pay close attention you might notice naga ritualists always have venom weapons. But did you know that wights and Norris have a 1/10 chance of their weapon being forced to freezing, even though some of their weapons can't even generate with freezing normally? Margery and hell knights have a 44% chance of keeping the weapon's original brand, and a 56% chance of completely rerolling it on a special brand list that isn't used for any weapon anywhere else. The Enchantress has a special 1/6 chance of overwriting the weapon's brand with distortion. Ancient champions, similar to Margery, have a 66% chance of completely rerolling the weapon's brand with a different special brand list that isn't used for anything anywhere else. 1 out of every 100 chaos champions has a chaos weapon. And I left a bunch of stuff out of this list.

[and into]

^ So many things not just clustering illusions, for once....

[XuaXua]

I wonder what the rationale behind all that wacky decision-making is?

[crate]

there isn't one

[ackack]

I don't see the problem with duvessa's list of brands. This doesn't strike me as an area where consistency matters. With launchers I at least sometimes will think about making a decision based on available egos, but I don't think I've ever made my melee weapon decision on the basis of what brands were possible on specific weapons. (EDIT: well, maybe lajatangs, but those are already awesome.) Further, between brand weapon and randarts, it seems like there are already sources that can lead to unusual brands for certain weapon types, so I don't really see why having things like Margery or the Enchantress getting special rolls is a problem.

[Sandman25]

I see several problems:
1) some players might waste scrolls of brand weapon trying to get speed on executioner's axe or other weapon where it is impossible to get speed
2) some monsters having higher chance of chaos/distortion really rewards players who read spoilers. Clustering illusion makes learning it from the game hard.
3) As a book background I check weapons trying to find protection brand, it is very useful to know that spear cannot have protection.
4) The same with pain, I often look for pain brand on short swords (where they cannot generate) but all I can get is to waste scrolls of remove curse (if I don't care about distortion).
I am sure there are more problems.

Edit. Or is it possible to get speed from branding executioner's axe?

[Sar]

Scroll of brand weapon doesn't take weapon type into account, and it doesn't give you speed either.

[stickyfingers]

Well, it does check whether the weapon is ranged, since those won't get draining, vamp or protection, but can get evasion instead (and have slightly different weights).

You think melee weapons, but not launchers, generating with holy wrath is bad? How about this:

Spoiler: show

- Maces, great maces, flails, dire flails, and hammers all get the same brands. Morningstars, however, get those brands plus an extra chance of getting venom/flaming/freezing/vampiric if they fail to roll a brand.
- Falchions, long swords, and scimitars have a chance of getting the pain brand; other non-demon long blades do not. Falchions and long swords - but not scimitars - have a chance of getting venom.
- All axes can get holy wrath or draining...except for hand axes.
- All polearms can get holy wrath or protection...except for spears.
- Whips (not demon whips) have a completely different brand roll from any other weapon.
- Launchers other than blowguns always get the same brand roll, unless it's a triple crossbow, in which case the chance of getting a brand is doubled.
- Daggers, but not short swords and rapiers, can generate with pain. Short swords and rapiers can generate with venom, however, daggers have an extra chance of getting venom if they don't roll another brand.
- Quarterstaves, like whips, have a completely different brand roll from any other weapon.
- So do lajatangs. No, it's nothing like the quarterstaff one.
- Finally, all of this can be upended if the weapon was generated as equipment for certain monsters. You probably know Pikel gets flaming/freezing/elec, Sonja gets distortion/venom/draining, Psyche gets chaos/distortion, and Crazy Yiuf get chaos. If you pay close attention you might notice naga ritualists always have venom weapons. But did you know that wights and Norris have a 1/10 chance of their weapon being forced to freezing, even though some of their weapons can't even generate with freezing normally? Margery and hell knights have a 44% chance of keeping the weapon's original brand, and a 56% chance of completely rerolling it on a special brand list that isn't used for any weapon anywhere else. The Enchantress has a special 1/6 chance of overwriting the weapon's brand with distortion. Ancient champions, similar to Margery, have a 66% chance of completely rerolling the weapon's brand with a different special brand list that isn't used for anything anywhere else. 1 out of every 100 chaos champions has a chaos weapon. And I left a bunch of stuff out of this list.

It may be worth mentioning that's the state of affairs after a recent (3-4 weeks ago) tweaks/refactoring of the brand generation code.

[XuaXua]

It may be worth mentioning that's the state of affairs after a recent (3-4 weeks ago) tweaks/refactoring of the brand generation code.

Is rationale posted on the git patches? Some of those seem really arbitrary.

Of course, if this is ever generalized, cue the cries of "MUH FLAVOR!" from the audience.

[stickyfingers]

It was like this before, some minor things were changed. History of the file in question: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... b2;hb=HEAD

[njvack]

I had actually noticed that wights get freezing weapons pretty often. And Hell Knights seemed special. And uniques (I mean, of *course* Yiuf). And of course, fire/frost giants have their special swords and axes.

I'm not saying this is good or bad design, but even unspoiled and with a relatively small number of games under my belt, I kinda knew that different monsters had different loot tables, and that different weapons had different branding tables. To me, this feels fairly harmless and, dare I say, flavorful.

I think Brand Weapon should have at least a vanishingly small chance of every brand.

[partial]

I'm of the opinion that HW should be removed entirely outside of TSO's blessing.

this + more unique holy weps like trishula/scourge

[sanka]

What I would like to know: which weapon types has a chance to generate with distortion (on the ground, not in the hand of a monster)?

[duvessa]

On the ground, all melee weapons that can get a brand at all can get distortion except for demon weapons which cannot.

[XuaXua]

Other than the code not allowing for it, why can't demon weapons start with distortion?

[duvessa]

there isn't one

[adozu]

some brands are just less desirable than other and some can even be detrimental in some cases, if i ever find a demon longsword on the ground on a longsword using character i'm certainly going to prefer almost any other brand o it than the one that makes enemies blink away from me.

i think some of the things in the list are there just to reduce the chanche of my rare loot to suck... or for common stuff to be better than intended. Like triple crossbows having a lower chanche to be unbranded compared to more mundane launchers.