Demigods and their stats

[Wahaha]

If the background is random then Dg starting with a spellbook bg would be better than Mi so overall Dg might be better.

If we're talking about balance, I think they're worse than average. Yes they're good before D:4, at which point ~50% of greaterp characters die. But they're far from the worst balance offenders. After D:4 (which is the other 50% of deaths) they're one of the weakest races until the end of the game, falling behind on skills, hp (I'm not sure if they have lower hp all game but in early game after like D:3 their slow leveling is worse than +10% hp), no god, and the stats don't make up for it at all. Also I'm not sure about the D:4 number, I think they start becoming bad at D:3. So the point is I don't think a buff is a problem if it will better their design. I like their current design and I don't necessarily think they should be buffed, though I would enjoy playing them more if they were because they feel weak right now.

I like the idea of 3x stat increase every 3 levels the most from Brannock. And leaving their stats at 11/12/11 is not a problem in my opinion.

[XuaXua]

Pushed some variant of the stat control. Undecided about sustab; might add that later, might not.

Always with the git link.

Summary:

Full stat control, gain stat on level 2,3, 5,6 etc...

+18 total stats, whereas used to be +22 (9 controlled, 11 random)

[duvessa]

falling behind on skills [...] the stats don't make up for it at all.

Here's a fun experiment for you to try. Go make a demigod and a human character. For both characters, spend the same amount of xp on dodging. It doesn't matter how much xp, because there is no amount where the human will have better EV. It also works for spell skills (the demigod will always have better spell success and power)*. And that's at XL1, where the stat difference is the smallest.

*assuming you stop at intervals of 0.5, since Crawl's spell success formula rounds effective spell skill down to intervals of 0.5.

[Wahaha]

That's an interesting observation and I'm sure -1 apts and Dg stats are better than 0 apts but the point is the whole package anyway. As a whole Dg are harder to win for me than Hu (I intentionally do not play to the best of my ability but hopefully well enough to compare Dg and Hu). The biggest reason is of course the lack of a god because gods are OP. But -1 apts and slower leveling don't help, and it all adds up to something weaker than average in my opinion (average not referring to Hu here). I'd give Dg 0 apts in some skills like fighting, spellcasting, and even higher stats.

[XuaXua]

That's an interesting observation and I'm sure -1 apts and Dg stats are better than 0 apts but the point is the whole package anyway. As a whole Dg are harder to win for me than Hu (I intentionally do not play to the best of my ability but hopefully well enough to compare Dg and Hu). The biggest reason is of course the lack of a god because gods are OP. But -1 apts and slower leveling don't help, and it all adds up to something weaker than average in my opinion (average not referring to Hu here). I'd give Dg 0 apts in some skills like fighting, spellcasting, and even higher stats.

So, is what you're saying that on a one-for-one basis, Demigods need a bit more than Humans to compensate for a lack of deity option, like either even more increased attributes, or some other advantage (besides not having to ever invest skill points in Invocations)?

[XuaXua]

  Code:

d16a32f | 2014-10-07 20:54:54 -0700 | Nicholas Feinberg

Give innate sustain abilities to demigods (Brannock)
Suits their mechanical theme ("good stats"), and is a nice tiny buff to match the last commit's tiny nerf. (Not that one was needed, of course, but there's a symmetry there.)

2b715f5 | 2014-10-07 20:08:26 -0700 | Nicholas Feinberg

Give demigods have double-stat-ups
On every third level, mainly for the elegance of the design.
This leaves their total stats unchanged, but delays them very slightly & gives slightly less fine control.

[chinchilla wizard]

It doesn't make sense that demigods are atheists. Did Hercules or Perseus not get artifacts or any sort of help from their parents? I know it's for balance, probably, but no one plays demigods in the first place.

[duvessa]

More people play demigods than ghouls or halflings, but I don't think that's a good reason to make halflings normal size and remove rotting from ghouls.

[Greyr]

remove rotting from ghouls.

This is a good idea, actually.

[duvessa]

Yeah but nobody playing them isn't a good reason for it

[Greyr]

True, but it's still a shitty mechanic.

[Brannock]

It doesn't make sense that demigods are atheists. Did Hercules or Perseus not get artifacts or any sort of help from their parents? I know it's for balance, probably, but no one plays demigods in the first place.

Don't get too hung up on the flavor is my advice.

[crate]

It doesn't make sense that demigods are atheists. Did Hercules or Perseus not get artifacts or any sort of help from their parents? I know it's for balance, probably, but no one plays demigods in the first place.

It's not for balance. Literally the entire reason that demigods exist is to be a race that cannot worship a god (i.e. a race to play when you don't want to worship a god).

[XuaXua]

It doesn't make sense that demigods are atheists. Did Hercules or Perseus not get artifacts or any sort of help from their parents? I know it's for balance, probably, but no one plays demigods in the first place.

It's not for balance. Literally the entire reason that demigods exist is to be a race that cannot worship a god (i.e. a race to play when you don't want to worship a god).

If you want to discuss alternate names / definitions for "Demigod" as a way to remove the whole "I am a child of a god and therefore should get gifts or some divine power or influence" confusion that stems from the mis-use of the name "Demigod", that can be discussed on the Demigod Bikeshedding thread.

[damiac]

It doesn't make sense that demigods are atheists. Did Hercules or Perseus not get artifacts or any sort of help from their parents? I know it's for balance, probably, but no one plays demigods in the first place.

It's not for balance. Literally the entire reason that demigods exist is to be a race that cannot worship a god (i.e. a race to play when you don't want to worship a god).

Actually, any race can be played godless, and each one will offer a pretty different experience from demigods. So to play without a god isn't really the whole reason they exist, as that can easily be accomplished without them.

Clearly the extra power they get is 'balanced' by the fact they cannot worship a god.

[and into]

No, there is a big difference between being unable to worship any god, and choosing to play godless.

Any race can be played without tele or haste, but it does not follow that formicid's stasis exists in order to "balance" their self-shaft ability and their digging. Quite the opposite: Simplifying slightly, but the idea there mainly was, "How about a species that can't teleport? Could that be interesting?" And a lot of the other stuff developed from that, plus the ant-man theme.

Forced atheism is interesting, and giving Dg good stats but middling aptitudes in addition to that actually gives them a more interesting game play niche than if they were literally just "humans, but you can't worship any god." If you wanted to put Dg on a truly even playing field with other species, you'd need to do something like allow Dg berserkers (but you start with an amulet of rage and a better weapon and a ring of MR+, rather than trog), and a bunch of dumb special exceptions like that. Species are designed to provide a unique game play experience, and are specifically not intended to be completely equal and balanced compared to each other. Obviously one would have to be worried if a species is *way* overpowered or something, since you want to avoid "no brainers"—and a too powerful species would be uninteresting, any way—but that's not quite the same.

To put it another way: Basically every species that actually made it to stable, but then was subsequently removed, has been taken out because it was deemed too similar to other species, not because it was imbalanced. That fact reflects the Crawl's design priorities pretty well.

[ragnarokchu]

No, there is a big difference between being unable to worship any god, and choosing to play godless.

Any race can be played without tele or haste, but it does not follow that formicid's stasis exists in order to "balance" their self-shaft ability and their digging. Quite the opposite: Simplifying slightly, but the idea there mainly was, "How about a species that can't teleport? Could that be interesting?" And a lot of the other stuff developed from that, plus the ant-man theme.

Forced atheism is interesting, and giving Dg good stats but middling aptitudes in addition to that actually gives them a more interesting game play niche than if they were literally just "humans, but you can't worship any god." If you wanted to put Dg on a truly even playing field with other species, you'd need to do something like allow Dg berserkers (but you start with an amulet of rage and a better weapon and a ring of MR+, rather than trog), and a bunch of dumb special exceptions like that. Species are designed to provide a unique game play experience, and are specifically not intended to be completely equal and balanced compared to each other. Obviously one would have to be worried if a species is *way* overpowered or something, since you want to avoid "no brainers"—and a too powerful species would be uninteresting, any way—but that's not quite the same.

To put it another way: Basically every species that actually made it to stable, but then was subsequently removed, has been taken out because it was deemed too similar to other species, not because it was imbalanced. That fact reflects the Crawl's design priorities pretty well.

Why not make them be unable to be effected by godly or otherworldly powers and in return can't used them.

Can't be tormented/smite ect with a different take on the stats.

Can be called like soulless or something.

[damiac]

Well, going off your example, I'd say FO's self shafting and digging abilities are there to 'balance' their innate stasis, not the other way around.

And when I say 'balance' all I mean is the race gets to have something extra to make up for not having something else, not that they are equally powerful compared to all other races. So it would have been more accurate for me to say DG's lack of a god is 'balanced' by their extra stats, not the other way around.

[kuniqs]

How about this: ability gained at 13 level that allows you to spend 1 permament MP to:
- permamently increase your chosen attribute by 1
- permamently decrease one of the other two (choosen randomly) attributes by 1

It would give players some choice, in those situations when they found a great suit of armour/spellbook and been increasing int/str they could 'respec' themselves to a degree.

EDIT

Ooh, oh, I got other ideas:
- like weapon selection, demigods get to choose 1 weak magic item (a wand of cold(3), a ring of protection +3, plain deck of summonings etc.)
- at 13 level start giving them 3 random abilities (or spells) at a time, like vehumet's spell gifts. Those abilities could be haste, might, agility, elemental discharge... using it costs moderate drain and mp.