Funny Things the Wiki says

[LJFCAT]

The headline is pretty self-explanatory, but let me say that not only do I think the potential amusement is high, but perhaps it will bring some attention to the poorly maintained wiki.

The idea is simple - see something ridiculous/insane in the wiki, post it here.

This idea was inspired by the following, on the Crawl wiki page for the cutlass:

"Cutlasses are fairly uncommon, but some early- and mid-game monsters wield them (such as the unique summoner Ignacio and the deep elves of the Elven Halls)."

Don't you hate when you're on a roll, you just killed Sigmund and signed up with your god-of-choice at the temple, and then bam! on level 7, there's Ingacio brandishing his cutlass and tearing you to shreds with Agony. To be fair, he was WAY too easy to be in Pan - and he may've been too difficult for D:5-11, you might say, but I think changing his weapon to a cutlass evens things out.

[Aule]

It's a wiki, so why don't you make the changes you would like to see yourself? It would probably take as much time and effort as posting them here to make fun of them.

[Patashu]

It's a wiki, so why don't you make the changes you would like to see yourself? It would probably take as much time and effort as posting them here to make fun of them.

It's a wiki only in name, it's not open to editing by the public.

[Aule]

It's a wiki, so why don't you make the changes you would like to see yourself? It would probably take as much time and effort as posting them here to make fun of them.

It's a wiki only in name, it's not open to editing by the public.

Well, it says here, in the top box, right under the title:

New contributors are always welcome! If you would like to register to for a new account, please send us an email with your preferred username.

Sending an email... them's some tough requirements.

Look, you don't have to write anything. You can sign up only to make minor corrections or improvements. The quality of a wiki is in the number of smaller contributions that make up the whole. If you see something wrong, wouldn't it be nice to just edit the page and correct it? So send them an email if you think you have something to contribute, even if it's just one little thing.

Right now, it could use some love, because it's still referring to 0.15 as trunk.

[Kaeoschassis]

You mean well, you make a good point, but in this case they're actually right. I seem to recall there being some mix-up or another and now you can't actually sign up to edit the wiki.
I could be mistaken, mind. Why don't you send them an email and see if you can get signed up?

[nilsbloodaxe]

It's a wiki, so why don't you make the changes you would like to see yourself? It would probably take as much time and effort as posting them here to make fun of them.

It's a wiki only in name, it's not open to editing by the public.

Well, it says here, in the top box, right under the title:

New contributors are always welcome! If you would like to register to for a new account, please send us an email with your preferred username.

Sending an email... them's some tough requirements.

Look, you don't have to write anything. You can sign up only to make minor corrections or improvements. The quality of a wiki is in the number of smaller contributions that make up the whole. If you see something wrong, wouldn't it be nice to just edit the page and correct it? So send them an email if you think you have something to contribute, even if it's just one little thing.

Right now, it could use some love, because it's still referring to 0.15 as trunk.

How many times must it be said, don't trust the wiki!

Not being able to get an account there has been true for a long time, longer than you have been posting, so it is understandable you didn't know this.

[LJFCAT]

This is just in good fun; it's not meant to be a scathing criticism. That being said, yes, there are sign up issues, and probably posting issues or something similar - there are simple mistakes that I can't imagine I am the first, second, or even twentieth person to see. I'll look into it, though. It probably needs more/some really great players who are very on top of things, as I'm not the best player nor the most knowledgeable.

That being said... I like the idea of cutlass swinging Ignacio. Why change it?

[Aule]

Well, I was signed up today, after sending the email (the link even creates the message title for you), writing simply please and thank you in the body. So I can make edits, now. So maybe you could try again if you're truly interested? That was the reason I commented on this, actually. The OP was serendipitously aligned with some of my thoughts and actions I had already committed today. I didn't want to toot a horn, really, but you guys sound like you need some convincing.

[tasonir]

Getting the account set up usually does take a day or two for the people managing it to notice it and set up your account. Automatic account signup was disabled due to spam.

Regardless, I love when bad wiki topics come up, and started a fairly long thread (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4338) back when I was new here, because I'm happy to edit the wiki to remove/correct anything. If you can point out what's wrong, I'll update it. This is something of a long term project for me, which I've done a couple times.

I'm still happy to keep cleaning things up, while there's a lot of bad info/advice in the wiki, it's still the most complete and easily readable guide to crawl. Asking specific questions on the forum is more likely to be accurate, but you have to actually wait for the advice and it's hard to say "Explain all of crawl to me from the start". The wiki can answer that question if you read enough, but it's less accurate. Let's not abandon it

Offtopic: while digging through my 2012 posting history, I referred to DDBe as the hardest combo I had played: ie, that it was weaker than the other combo I played: Naga monk of Chei. Funtimes

[tasonir]

I've now fixed the original page: a cutlass can be found equipped by the early unique Eustachio, not Ignacio.

[duvessa]

THE BADWIKI ARCHIVE:
2. "Freeze, the first spell [in Frost], is not the best. it's [sic] damage is decent, and it slows cold-blooded enemies, but it can only hit adjacent enemies, and unlike Flame Tongue, it's [sic] range does not increase with spell power."
3. "Azrael and his fire elementals all trail fire, you can use that to fence in other enemies nearby, if there are enemies."
4. Beware of the food cost!
5. http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=The_Ziggurat&oldid=13247#Archer_strategy
6. recommendations include: ddne of chei, spen of tso, abandoning makhleb in the midgame (because his power dips).
7. Mountain Dwarf Fighter of Cheibriados (strategy guide): A wrecking ball
8. My power is increasing. I can feel Vehumet's pride and ice in my veins as I stride forward, destruction filling my mind. This lair will prove no more difficult than fighting an angry child.
9. Volcano - "To fully explore it, you'll need a reliable means of levitation to cross the lava, which is rare at this point in the game."
10. Draining weapons are devastating at any point in the game
11. Skalds need Evasion (to cast magic)
12. Besides fire resistance you won't be needing much, although making the effort to reach rC+++ to protect yourself in case you need to pop an Ice Storm at close range is an excellent idea.
13. You completely deleted the original Mummy Wizard guide article and replaced it with a link to your own shorter, incomplete guide. This is not acceptable in a community-driven wiki.
14. "Strength [...] increases the rate at which you learn the Armour skill and weapon skills."
15. Magic Dart is a definite upgrade over Freeze any way you look at it
16. <archl> the exit is in metal??? <archl> wiki is wrong
17. Wielding a distortion weapon can serve as a last resort to teleport you while confused.
18. While a weapon of orc slaying will work wonders against him [Saint Roka], he's technically evil, so weapons of holy wrath are just as effective.
19. On Sandblast: "Use stones sparingly; use the standard version of the spell against goblins and save your ammo for bigger prey, like hydras."
20. Zot:5 ... Requirements: ... 5 scrolls of magic mapping
21. <Sorbius> the wiki isn't that bad if you already know everything since you will recognise the things that are wrong
22. <bmfx> Liams123: there is a problem. when you want to edit wiki, you realise you don't have rights to. and when you manage to get them, you already don't care
23. A pro of statue form: -2 dexterity
24. The amount of MP you have is very important, try to find a ring of magical power if possible, but beware of the food cost!
25. Cheibriados Is also useful [on MuSu] for the stat boosts, and seen as you'll be summoning a lot, you don't need to be running off as much!
26. A description for this result is not available because of this site's robots.txt
27. You'll have to decide whether you want to kill monsters for experience or save them to eat later.

[tasonir]

THE BADWIKI ARCHIVE:
2. "Freeze, the first spell [in Frost], is not the best. it's [sic] damage is decent, and it slows cold-blooded enemies, but it can only hit adjacent enemies, and unlike Flame Tongue, it's [sic] range does not increase with spell power."
3. "Azrael and his fire elementals all trail fire, you can use that to fence in other enemies nearby, if there are enemies."
4. Beware of the food cost!
5. http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=The_Ziggurat&oldid=13247#Archer_strategy
6. recommendations include: ddne of chei, spen of tso, abandoning makhleb in the midgame (because his power dips).
7. Mountain Dwarf Fighter of Cheibriados (strategy guide): A wrecking ball
8. My power is increasing. I can feel Vehumet's pride and ice in my veins as I stride forward, destruction filling my mind. This lair will prove no more difficult than fighting an angry child.
9. Volcano - "To fully explore it, you'll need a reliable means of levitation to cross the lava, which is rare at this point in the game."
10. Draining weapons are devastating at any point in the game
11. Skalds need Evasion (to cast magic)
12. Besides fire resistance you won't be needing much, although making the effort to reach rC+++ to protect yourself in case you need to pop an Ice Storm at close range is an excellent idea.
13. You completely deleted the original Mummy Wizard guide article and replaced it with a link to your own shorter, incomplete guide. This is not acceptable in a community-driven wiki.
14. "Strength [...] increases the rate at which you learn the Armour skill and weapon skills."
15. Magic Dart is a definite upgrade over Freeze any way you look at it
16. <archl> the exit is in metal??? <archl> wiki is wrong
17. Wielding a distortion weapon can serve as a last resort to teleport you while confused.
18. While a weapon of orc slaying will work wonders against him [Saint Roka], he's technically evil, so weapons of holy wrath are just as effective.
19. On Sandblast: "Use stones sparingly; use the standard version of the spell against goblins and save your ammo for bigger prey, like hydras."
20. Zot:5 ... Requirements: ... 5 scrolls of magic mapping
21. <Sorbius> the wiki isn't that bad if you already know everything since you will recognise the things that are wrong
22. <bmfx> Liams123: there is a problem. when you want to edit wiki, you realise you don't have rights to. and when you manage to get them, you already don't care
23. A pro of statue form: -2 dexterity
24. The amount of MP you have is very important, try to find a ring of magical power if possible, but beware of the food cost!
25. Cheibriados Is also useful [on MuSu] for the stat boosts, and seen as you'll be summoning a lot, you don't need to be running off as much!
26. A description for this result is not available because of this site's robots.txt
27. You'll have to decide whether you want to kill monsters for experience or save them to eat later.

Since most of these are from the archives, they are no longer there and don't need to be fixed. The link to the archer strategy for ziggs is also broken, even though it's trying to refer to an old version of the page. I checked the modern zigg page and there's no archer strategy on it anymore. Consider this the default response to all of the above; specific responses as follows:

#7: Completely accurate. Anything of Chei is a complete wrecking ball, and should be played frequently.
#8: Sounds pretty accurate as well. Not only that, but this person needs to write more poetry, that brought a tear to my eye.
#10: Now actually true since draining weapons were refactored and are now actually cool.
#11: probably just meant light armor to keep spells easily castable and maintain evasion, and miswrote it. I don't think it's there anymore either.
#25: Chei MuSu forever!

A lot of the later ones are just people talking about the wiki or bad editing, like the -2 dex being under the pro's of statue form. Yes, something that anyone (for small values of anyone) can edit will have mistakes, the point is to fix them! Some things like #24 strike me as just having bad english - he probably meant the hunger costs of casting a lot of powerful spells, not the hunger costs of the ring of magical power directly. Obviously most people around here recommend ignoring the hunger costs of spells in general, but I know I certainly like to remove hunger costs as soon as I have the time to do so. It's not the first goal, but it is something I do once I'm comfortable surviving.

[dck]

No see the thing is that for example important entries like the one for Jiyva are fucking terrible. I distinctly recall noticing it being fucking terrible four months ago, forgot to fix it and guess what, it still is fucking terrible today!
At least the quotes above are funny, if no longer accurate.

[tasonir]

I'm not sure if I should update the page based on .15 removing item destruction yet. I guess it's about that time. Is it still true that Jiyva's acid protection is the same as the amulet? So she offers protection from the new tactical corrosion effect? I assume so, just want to double check. I'll remove the section about protecting you from item destruction, as that's gone now (and probably add a note in the history section).

Even the strategy section seems fairly decent to me. I might take issue with:

  Code:

Jiyva's stat shuffling means that classes with particularly horrid starting stats, such as transmuters, will gain more benefit than wizards.

Just because transmuters get a mix of stats instead of (nearly) all int, doesn't mean it's horrid stats.

And also issue with:

  Code:

It is highly recommended that you not switch to Jiyva until the Slime Pits, even if you locate an altar early on (which is possible). The slimes Jiyva floods levels with are much stronger than most early monsters and will kill most of the enemies on the level (not to mention consume all the items). While this sounds fairly useful, the slimes are simply neutral to you. They aren't allies, so you don't receive any experience for their kills. This leads to you being seriously under powered and under equipped by the later levels when the slimes simply don't have the power to keep you protected anymore.

In both cases I'd probably just remove the text entirely, I don't think it needs much replacement. I might mention something about them eating a few items and killing a few monsters, but that neither are that critical, and that most floor items aren't that useful.

I don't consider the article as a whole to be terrible, but if there's something else you hate, let me know.

[duvessa]

would you consider moving this over to one of the 5 million threads about fixing the wiki? because im pretty sure this one was supposed to just be for funny stuff you find on it

[Aule]

would you consider moving this over to one of the 5 million threads about fixing the wiki? because im pretty sure this one was supposed to just be for funny stuff you find on it

That's funny.

[PleasingFungus]

Some things like #24 strike me as just having bad english - he probably meant the hunger costs of casting a lot of powerful spells, not the hunger costs of the ring of magical power directly. Obviously most people around here recommend ignoring the hunger costs of spells in general, but I know I certainly like to remove hunger costs as soon as I have the time to do so. It's not the first goal, but it is something I do once I'm comfortable surviving.

If I'm reading the changelog right, all rings had a hunger cost in Linley's Dungeon Crawl 2.60 and earlier. Possibly that person was just a very, very long-time player?

[Arrhythmia]

Some things like #24 strike me as just having bad english - he probably meant the hunger costs of casting a lot of powerful spells, not the hunger costs of the ring of magical power directly. Obviously most people around here recommend ignoring the hunger costs of spells in general, but I know I certainly like to remove hunger costs as soon as I have the time to do so. It's not the first goal, but it is something I do once I'm comfortable surviving.

If I'm reading the changelog right, all rings had a hunger cost in Linley's Dungeon Crawl 2.60 and earlier. Possibly that person was just a very, very long-time player?

BEWARE THE FOOD COST!

BEWWWAARRREEEEE!!!!!!

[Siegurt]

Maybe a Nethack spoiler accidentally got added to the Wiki

[mikee]

How to write for the wiki:
1) Find out about a crawl mechanic or feature, preferably from word of mouth or reading another article; 2) exaggerate the importance of that mechanic or feature while applying it to a hypothetical in-game situation; 3) add weird slang and figurative language to hide what you're actually saying; 4) write as if this is something you've done many times and/or is a common practice.

Because scrolls of random uselessness can sometimes cast summon butterflies when read, this scroll can be useful in a pinch to block ranged attacks. These scrolls can be a lifesaver against foes like Cerebov, whose iron shots will be thwarted by your butterflies.

[tasonir]

I noticed the wiki mentions that ponderous ego lowers your EV aside from the movement penalty, which I believe is wrong. It's simply a movement speed decrease. I have already edited the two places I saw this mentioned, I just wanted to confirm here that I'm not crazy and there isn't a separate EV penalty as well. Gracias.

[Turukano]

Thanks for your work on the wiki, tasonir.

Here's another thing I recently found: Death's Door is a charms/necro spell. The necromancy overview wrongly shows it as a single school spell.

[Aule]

Here's another thing I recently found: Death's Door is a charms/necro spell. The necromancy overview wrongly shows it as a single school spell.

Done. That's a good eye. You should consider signing up just to make easy edits like that when you catch them.

[Tiropat]

Abyssal Knights are listed as starting with a +2 weapon but it is currently a +1

[tasonir]

Abyssal Knights are listed as starting with a +2 weapon but it is currently a +1

Updated. Also went a bit crazy and marked it as up to date for .15, which is still considered the future on the wiki. I guess that's true, when is the official release? Friday? Or is it already considered released?

[khalil]

Because scrolls of random uselessness can sometimes cast summon butterflies when read, this scroll can be useful in a pinch to block ranged attacks. These scrolls can be a lifesaver against foes like Cerebov, whose iron shots will be thwarted by your butterflies.

I kinda wish there was a scroll of summon butterflies. It'd be a fairly useful scroll for escape, comparable to scrolls of fog. It'd be less useful against monsters with smite targeting attacks, but more useful against monsters with single target high damage attacks.

[Sar]

If you want to summon butterflies it's literally a level 1 spell.

(RIP Trog dudes)

[Rep Henry Clay]

I figured I would post this here instead of starting a new thread.

Proposal: Create a new wiki based on the current one hosted by chaosforge. I am by no means a webadmin, but I am confident that I could figure out how to host it on my current Amazon webservices account (or elsewhere). I would probably buy a new domain name too; I think dcsswiki.org is available? If this is allowed, I would copy the good/recent content off the wiki and rehost it, updating where I am able/knowledgeable. There are 2 things this wiki would do differently, and I have almost no idea how feasible this would be.

1) Create two sections in each wiki page, one with the actual wiki content, and other section with the learndb content. Displaying the relevant https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html would alleviate the accuracy and out-of-date weaknesses that afflict the current wiki.

2) Sync Mantis with the new wiki so that every user of this forum has an automatic account on the wiki. It would eliminate any excuses forum members would have for not contributing to the wiki. From my (very) brief reading of the Mantis documentation I think it might be possible with a bit of work?

Again, let me repeat that I'm just throwing out ideas that may be impossible/impractical!

[Aule]

Learndb is almost incomprehensible to me, at first glance, and in many places it remains so after several readings because it contains hieroglyphic statements that tell me nothing only because I don't have the requisite depth of geekness.

A small handful of examples:

  Code:

0.1 reasons

    perma-XXX

0.9 reasons

        <N78291> 0.9 reasons: bees
        helmets
        MuTm

4.1

        Crawl (NOT stone soup) 4.1 Alpha, Brent Ross' ill-fated rewrite of Crawl. DCSS was spawned by two people who got tired of waiting for this to come out of alpha. Nearly unwinnable. NEVER CONFUSE THIS WITH SS 0.4.1
        http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/ancient/meneril/morgue-meneril-20080714-105929.txt http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/ancient/78291/morgue-78291-20140325-212951.txt
        <elliott> what's really overpowered in 4.1 <rwbarton> elliott: monsters
        This raw flesh is not very appetising. Yum! Yum!
        <mikee_> there are no good items and no xp
        Xom's power touches on you for a moment. You feel dopey. You die...
        <mikee_> i think the answer to every 4.1 "will i die" question is yes

41qyscrawl

        can you guess??????????
        <monqy> im going to make cerebov a frog and represent him with F <monqy> gloorx can be a death yak <monqy> frogs cant wield weapons but cerebov is special
        see monqyscrawl[4]
        fourty wonky scrawl
        permanent implemented features: HP/MP bars; brogue-style doors (open iff anything is on them); skills removed, replaced by stats.
        permanent unimplemented unfeatures: traps; secret doors; maprot; identification; curses; hunger; rotting; disease; sparkling fountains; mimics; item corrosion; item destruction; monster invisibility; gold and shops
        referred to as "fake" by power-mad rogue dcss developer evilmike
        <MarvinPA> i was about to say something about 41qys-crawl obviously being perfect and flawless, yes :P

cool

        refrigeration
        see wensley
        see sakuyaizayoi[2]
        tab
        squarelos
        xom
        newveh

coolplayers

        Players who have won at least one combo that makes a word online in 80x24 console using vikeys or arrows+numrow or an external numpad.
        <Grunt> I am a coolplayer <gammafunk> so, how do we edit those?

new testament

    <+kilobyte> abuse item-cloning bugs (like that one with two breads and five fishes), log in simultaenously on your player and admin accounts, etc

nexos

    seems to have completed the ironman challenge.

nfm

        server TODO: save-fixing guide, CAO tutorial mode, finish inventory of server-side software, finish and send infrastructure team proposal to CRD, take list of stable and exp. branches from a file, script to deploy new version, inotify for new inprogress dirs too, Chei -> dobrazupa, autobuild glyphs+monster, upload/copy rcfile
        more server TODO: admin dgl command to back up others' saves?, fake logfile entries for exp & entering wizmode?, webtiles flag in dgl watch menu, save backup in webtiles?

nht

    leaves terrifying speedrun ghosts everywhere. watch out or it might apport you!

Also, there is little in the way of 1:1 information grouping, which would seem to require even more heroic efforts to untangle and reweave with all the wiki content than if one were to just log in and make the changes to the wiki. Furthermore, why change the servers? What purpose would that serve other than to further complicate the matter? Can't you tie in the Mantis login to the existing server like you explained for the proposed server?

IMO, it would be far preferable if you IRC/TTY brainiacs would simply deign to join the ranks and help clueless people find the information on their own (obviously lesser) terms, rather than expect everyone to become immersed in something almost completely foreign to them in order to be deserving of it. It's just too much, sometimes, you know? Well, no, maybe you don't, but just trust me when I tell you.

I personally thank anyone and everyone who can do anything to make it simpler, more direct and more accurate.

Want to know what I'd like to see? I've wished there were a comprehensive wiki page about how to extract game information from Sequell like I see some people here doing. Maybe the migration could go both ways if there were such things.

[nilsbloodaxe]

The problem with the wiki isn't just that it is out-of-date, it is what it contains. I would break down its contents into 2 parts, strategy and facts. The strategy parts are mostly crap and should be ignored. Most of the facts are numbers that really aren't that useful. The only things on the wiki that I think are any good are found in a better form with the knowledge bots (because the wiki is out-of-date).

[Sandman25]

I disagree about the facts part. It is extremely useful to learn crawl for a newcomer, it is useful for experienced player.
Knowledge base is not a manual. Mostly it is caused by lack of main entry point (http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Crawl_Wiki) which references pages like http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Spell which reference pages like http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Spell_power etc.

[lrvs]

Want to know what I'd like to see? I've wished there were a comprehensive wiki page about how to extract game information from Sequell like I see some people here doing. Maybe the migration could go both ways if there were such things.

There is a manual for that, might be what you are looking for.
https://github.com/greensnark/dcss_sequ ... istgame.md

[Aule]

Thanks! All that IRC stuff should be an entire section on the wiki. That would be awesome.

[Rep Henry Clay]

Also, there is little in the way of 1:1 information grouping, which would seem to require even more heroic efforts to untangle and reweave with all the wiki content than if one were to just log in and make the changes to the wiki. Furthermore, why change the servers? What purpose would that serve other than to further complicate the matter? Can't you tie in the Mantis login to the existing server like you explained for the proposed server?

You know, as soon as I posted this, I realized the exact same thing about changing the servers. It would make a lot more sense to just change the existing wiki! I think I got caught up in thinking that a new idea needed a new location. As for the 1:1 information grouping, you are right that there are many cases where no learndb page would equate to a wiki page, but I think most of these cases are attempts at humor or other nonsense. And yes, linking one page to another would have to be done on a case by case basis. https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html#staff_of_olgreb=http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Staff_of_Olgreb is one example where this is possible. It can be done for most of the items and spells, I think.

I think the facts vs. strategy argument is an interesting one. IMHO, I think both are important for a new player and the wiki is easier to navigate for unfamiliar users. As for myself, the wiki is how I learned to play; lurking on Tavern is where I have begun to understand something of strategy.

Question: If it were possible to convince the wiki folks to add Mantis users, who manages Mantis?

[tedric]

IMO the only advice that truly matters is based on first principles, i.e. developer philosophy and design goals. It's also nice to have easy reference documents about game mechanics, assuming they are accurate and navigable.

Most of the wiki content is problematic because the facts are tied to specific versions while the "strategies" are often too narrowly written and refer to specific game elements, and both quickly become outdated (assuming they were even accurate/useful in the first place). LearnDB is usually up to date, but much of the content remains problematic because it assumes a lot of baseline knowledge and is riddled with in-jokes and snark.

Good heuristics like "Improve killdudesing before defenses," "Fight one enemy at a time," "Let enemies come to you," etc. -- which I have learned exclusively from this forum -- are based on aspects of Crawl that are fundamental to the nature of roguelikes in general and the goals/philosophy of Crawl development in particular. They remain valid over the long term, surviving across versions and shakeups in the developer team. That's the stuff players most need to wrap their heads around, but it's hard to apply without understanding the various mechanics/numbers/formulae of the current version of the game.

We've got tons of content (wiki, LearnDB, forum). The question is how to curate it all such that the "strategy" portions don't get bogged down in particulars, and the particulars are kept up to date, and users new and old can easily interpret which info is which and find what they need. My sense is that none of the outlets we have right now are the perfect format, nor are they complementing each other well enough. My vote would be for a totally fresh start on a new wiki, but that's a herculean effort -- if I were considering leading a project like that myself, I'd want a lot of up-front commitment from a lot of people before I'd consider it even worth attempting.

[Greyr]

"Naga are slow and already have See Invisible so they`ll be better off with cheibriados."

Thanks, BlueCrake!

[Sar]

what does SInv has to do with

I just

[duvessa]

Without SInv you might try to take one of your 3 turn moves but bump into an invisible monster instead and only lose 1 turn. Wouldn't want that to happen.

[Sar]

I guess you can also slouch unseen horrors as soon as they enter line of sight???

[stickyfingers]

It's a choice between chei and ash, nagas already have one of ash' benefit, so chei's better gor them (supposedly)

[Sar]

well I would never

[Greyr]

Wait... Are you guys are telling me that you don't only worship Ash for see invisible??

[and into]

Well beside that I think the bigger and (in its way) more impressive wtf is, why on earth would "species mut is redundant with (very minor) bonus provided by Ash" = "Chei is good choice for this character" ?

[Lasty]

By now you should know that Chei is the default god choice for all characters.

[Sandman25]

Well, Ash loses some part of her charm for species which have sInv and I see nothing wrong with that. The same problem with Fo and monster detection (DD has it too but I am not going to play a DD of Ash any way).

[Magipi]

"Naga are slow and already have See Invisible so they`ll be better off with cheibriados."

Thanks, BlueCrake!

This part of the guide should be expanded and filled with some other useful advice.
"Deep dwarves already have monster detection so they`ll be better off with Cheibriados."
"If you find an amulet of clarity, you`ll be better off with Cheibriados."

[Bloax]

You aren't a demigod so you're better off worshipping Cheibriados to pretend that you are one with (usually) better aptitudes.

[Sandman25]

<offtopic>I guess someone should use Chei to streak typical characters (DEFE, SpEn, CeHu, MiFi, OpTm, TrHu etc.) to prove Chei is not that bad. </offtopic>

[Turukano]

I recently asked Which dragon armour is the best in general? I'm surprised the Wiki disrespects swamp DA which is a nice piece of armour in my opinion.

Swamp dragon armour is not usually considered one of the better dragon armours. While its encumbrance rating is quite manageable, so is that of fire dragon armour, which provides more useful intrinsics and more AC. Conversely, a robe with a useful ego such as resistance or Archmagi is also likely to be a better item for most characters.

I also disagree with

• a fire DA being better as you'll often struggle with the rC penalty
• a good robe "likely to be a better item for most characters"

[Sphara]

Just create CheiWiki and keep going on and on there how bad god he is.

Wiki is considered bad because it is not (and cannot be) 100% accurate and not every 'tips and tricks' are documented. It still is a pretty good source of basic information.

Bury me for saying this.