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If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Sorry, I exaggerated. Let me rephrase:
I'm a white male, ergo not allowed to have opinions on things like this without being called a racist.
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nilsbloodaxe wrote:Well, actually, it's mostly because mentioning Anita Sarkeesian and her video series in most videogame forums ends up turning into a total clusterfuck.
But actually addressing this, as a statistician, I seriously question her work. She may be right, of course, but her methods aren't convincing to me because they are not scientific and are, in fact, based on anecdotal evidence.
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Hirsch I wrote:this is probably the less chaotic thread ever. I'm scared, how do I react?
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twelwe wrote:how can we get more girls to play
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TehDruid wrote: Not the occasional nerdy chick, which sadly, is a rare sight.
Sphara wrote:Women who play roguelikes, do play because they like them.
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TehDruid wrote:?????????
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MarvinPA wrote:TehDruid wrote:?????????
You made an unhelpful generalisation and were quite reasonably called out for it (and Nemora very clearly explained the exact problems with your generalisation). And your response to that is... denying that you made the generalisation that you very definitely made, and saying "I've never ever treated a girl badly in a game or online in general" but also you despise "sluts" who aren't "true girl gamers"? That is completely not acceptable, and it looks to me like treating girls badly online is, in fact, exactly what you are currently doing. Please stop. Like, really, just stop posting and actually think about the things you have been typing.
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TehDruid wrote:@MarvinPA: Are you denying the fact that there's girls out there (luckily not that many) that "play games" solely to make money off horny young males?
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Arrhythmia wrote:TehDruid wrote:@MarvinPA: Are you denying the fact that there's girls out there (luckily not that many) that "play games" solely to make money off horny young males?
What, exactly, is the problem with this? And why does it strike such a chord with you that you "despise" them? That's really strong language for an act that, ultimately, doesn't affect you.
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dck wrote:man arrhy remember when you posted that gif
what a load of fun that was
Arrhythmia wrote:TehDruid wrote:@MarvinPA: Are you denying the fact that there's girls out there (luckily not that many) that "play games" solely to make money off horny young males?
What, exactly, is the problem with this? And why does it strike such a chord with you that you "despise" them? That's really strong language for an act that, ultimately, doesn't affect you.
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Hopeless wrote:Arrhythmia wrote:TehDruid wrote:@MarvinPA: Are you denying the fact that there's girls out there (luckily not that many) that "play games" solely to make money off horny young males?
What, exactly, is the problem with this? And why does it strike such a chord with you that you "despise" them? That's really strong language for an act that, ultimately, doesn't affect you.
Indeed. Quite out of character imho based on what else you've written too which for the most part seems to be kind, courteous and good-hearted. The anger over how others spend their time is very intense. Also the term "slut" is an example of the language I talked about earlier. I know girls/women use it too, but it is so toxic that it needs deletion from our vocabularies. Judging people on their sexual proclivities and or morays is fraught with disaster and bad feeling imho.
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dck wrote:oh wow i read a bit of this and lemme tell you arrhy people need more hippos in their lives
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Hopeless wrote:dck wrote:oh wow i read a bit of this and lemme tell you arrhy people need more hippos in their lives
Does this work?
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TehDruid wrote:I've made it abundantly clear that I don't enjoy the industry and communities treating women as if they're lesser beings. You can keep assuming I'm sexist as much as you want, however that doesn't change the fact that I like having actively involved females in design as well as gaming.
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dck wrote:oh wow i read a bit of this and lemme tell you arrhy people need more hippos in their lives
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dck wrote:oh wow i read a bit of this and lemme tell you arrhy people need more hippos in their lives
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damiac wrote:And I'd like to add on to a comment TDA made about white males (I know, poor us). While I don't think we as a group are 'not allowed' to talk about stuff like this, what I do think is that if a white male makes a statement that could by any stretch of the imagination be construed as bigoted, it's assumed that bigotry was intended. In other words, the burden of proof is on the white male to prove he is not a bigot, so it's safer for him to just keep his mouth shut.
On the other hand, if a 'minority' person makes a statement that could possibly be construed as bigoted, it's generally assumed bigotry was not the intention. If a non-minority person claims a statement was bigoted, the burden of proof is on that person. Usually just making such an accusation is enough to get a person written off as a bigot. Once again, an environment where the white male is better off keeping his mouth shut.
So this is why you see in conversations about these matters, a white male who doesn't want to be looked at as a bigot, but wishes to actually discuss the issue, has to perform various verbal gymnastics, and after every statement list their non-bigot credentials again. Which is why most of the time there's only a couple people actually discussing the matter, then everyone else jumps on every little thing that could possibly seen as bigoted, so everyone else knows they're NOT a bigot.
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damiac wrote:While the tavern community can be a bit hostile at times, I've never seen it being hostile specifically toward women.
damiac wrote:Now, I'm sure I'll be called a terrible sexist for saying this, but maybe men are socially conditioned to put up with more open hostility than women?
damiac wrote:And I'd like to add on to a comment TDA made about white males (I know, poor us). While I don't think we as a group are 'not allowed' to talk about stuff like this, what I do think is that if a white male makes a statement that could by any stretch of the imagination be construed as bigoted, it's assumed that bigotry was intended. In other words, the burden of proof is on the white male to prove he is not a bigot, so it's safer for him to just keep his mouth shut.
damiac wrote:This makes a true discussion very difficult, because the very group being accused of creating a hostile environment cannot freely argue their view of the issue, while the other side is much more free to express their thoughts.
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TehDruid wrote:@MarvinPA: Are you denying the fact that there's girls out there (luckily not that many) that "play games" solely to make money off horny young males?
TehDruid wrote:Also, when I mentioned a certain group of girl gamers using the s word, I forgot to add that my disliking them stems form the fact that I believe that they're part of the reason why girls as a whole aren't being taken seriously as gamers by many dudes. Shallow dudes that fail to see the bigger picture? Sure, I agree. These women, imho are undermining other women's fighting against ignorance and sexism. That's my only problem with them. I hope that clarified my perceived "hatred" towards them. I don't hate anyone.
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Turukano wrote:Lock thread - at least for a few days?
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Lasty wrote:White men are used to being listened to and deferred to when they talk about most topics regardless of their knowledge of that topic, and so it can be surprising and frustrating to run into a topic where one is held to a higher standard.
Lasty wrote:Did you read the article that XuaXua posted above? Did you read Nemora's comments in this thread? It's easy to think that the negative treatment of women on the internet is identical to the negative treatment of men on the internet only if you haven't experienced the former or made any effort to find out what it's like.
Damiac wrote:And of course, actual bigots exist, and even aside from the general hostility seen in gaming circles, there is a fair amount of hostility toward women. I assume most of that is from pathetic man-children (or actual children) who have so little actual accomplishment all they have to be proud of is their gender.
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damiac wrote:I don't know that I am used to be listened to and deferred to, but then, I guess I forget to mention that I'm a white male most of the time, so maybe I'm just missing out on all the bonus respect I'm supposed to be getting for no good reason. If I made a similar statement about any other group of people, it would be a prejudiced statement. I must say, this statement in particular leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, as you're making negative assertions about a certain group of people who belong to a certain race and gender, in a thread where you previously indicated you think that's a very bad thing to do. (I also think it's a bad thing to do, by the way). You don't know what I'm used to, you're making a racist and sexist generalization.
damiac wrote:If I made a similar statement about any other group of people, it would be a prejudiced statement.
Lasty wrote:obviously ignorant of cultural power dynamics
damiac wrote:Just one that's currently more acceptable to our society than most.
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damiac wrote:Meaning, these people may not actually be specifically hostile toward women, instead they're just generally hostile, and will use whatever they think will get the biggest reaction. So, they'll be terrible chauvinists toward women, racist toward black people, ageist against young and old people, etc.
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damiac wrote:you're making negative assertions about a certain group of people who belong to a certain race and gender, in a thread where you previously indicated you think that's a very bad thing to do.
damiac wrote:Now, I'm sure I'll be called a terrible sexist for saying this, but maybe men are socially conditioned to put up with more open hostility than women? That would explain a lot of why women would prefer to maintain low visibility in internet gaming circles, which are notoriously hostile, as revealing any detail about yourself just gives people more ammo to use in their hostility. Meaning, these people may not actually be specifically hostile toward women, instead they're just generally hostile, and will use whatever they think will get the biggest reaction. So, they'll be terrible chauvinists toward women, racist toward black people, ageist against young and old people, etc.
Lasty wrote:Did you read the article that XuaXua posted above? Did you read Nemora's comments in this thread? It's easy to think that the negative treatment of women on the internet is identical to the negative treatment of men on the internet only if you haven't experienced the former or made any effort to find out what it's like.
Damiac wrote:And of course, actual bigots exist, and even aside from the general hostility seen in gaming circles, there is a fair amount of hostility toward women. I assume most of that is from pathetic man-children (or actual children) who have so little actual accomplishment all they have to be proud of is their gender
damiac wrote:Did you read the post I made? Or did you just find a couple pieces to take out of context? It's easy to think that someone's being ignorant if haven't made any effort to read their entire post.
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zardo wrote:damiac wrote:I don't know that I am used to be listened to and deferred to, but then, I guess I forget to mention that I'm a white male most of the time, so maybe I'm just missing out on all the bonus respect I'm supposed to be getting for no good reason. If I made a similar statement about any other group of people, it would be a prejudiced statement. I must say, this statement in particular leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, as you're making negative assertions about a certain group of people who belong to a certain race and gender, in a thread where you previously indicated you think that's a very bad thing to do. (I also think it's a bad thing to do, by the way). You don't know what I'm used to, you're making a racist and sexist generalization.
It's not actually a generalization about white men it's a generalization about how society treats white men and it's usually a pretty accurate one unless you actually live under the Robert Mugabe regime or in a minority white prison or something. For most of us white males we do "miss out" on what's really going on with race and gender because we don't *have* to think about it too hard, most of the time.damiac wrote:If I made a similar statement about any other group of people, it would be a prejudiced statement.Lasty wrote:obviously ignorant of cultural power dynamics
damiac wrote:Just one that's currently more acceptable to our society than most.
No, dude, just no.
Anyway the real point is that the problem isn't all those "actual bigots" it's also the vastly greater number of reasonable normal people who refuse to believe that they could be part of the problem. It's not actually a dire moral failing to say something that reflects one or two of the many, many racist thoughts floating out there in the world that one might pick up, but intentions *don't* count in the grand scheme of things and when getting called out it's so much better to learn something than to get in a snit about it.
damiac wrote:Meaning, these people may not actually be specifically hostile toward women, instead they're just generally hostile, and will use whatever they think will get the biggest reaction. So, they'll be terrible chauvinists toward women, racist toward black people, ageist against young and old people, etc.
it doesn't actually matter why they do it the effect is the same - "trolling" bigotry is functionally indistinguishable from the "real thing"
You spent an entire paragraph advancing an argument that women are just aren't conditioned to put up with hostility and that they actually receive no more hostility than the average person from people on the internet. I responded by citing two salient and really easy-to-access sources talking about how the hostility faced by women on the internet is not the same. I responded directly to the actual point of your paragraph with a relevant response. I can't see how you think that's out of context.
I did see your mention that actual bigots exist. It's not clear how that acknowledgement interacts with your first-paragraph claim that women are actually getting the same level of harassment as men but just don't deal with it as well, since the two claims are mutually contradictory. I ignored it, because in context I read it as an attempt to shift blame for any actual bad behavior onto those people so that we don't need to acknowledge that there might be a pervasive issue in gaming communities, but if there's some other way to reconcile the claims that women get the same harassment as everyone else but that there is also a 'fair amount of hostility toward women' from 'pathetic man-children' I'd be interested to hear it.
The other stuff lasty said
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zardo wrote:Anyway the real point is that the problem isn't all those "actual bigots" it's also the vastly greater number of reasonable normal people who refuse to believe that they could be part of the problem. It's not actually a dire moral failing to say something that reflects one or two of the many, many racist thoughts floating out there in the world that one might pick up, but intentions *don't* count in the grand scheme of things and when getting called out it's so much better to learn something than to get in a snit about it.
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Nemora wrote:zardo wrote:Anyway the real point is that the problem isn't all those "actual bigots" it's also the vastly greater number of reasonable normal people who refuse to believe that they could be part of the problem. It's not actually a dire moral failing to say something that reflects one or two of the many, many racist thoughts floating out there in the world that one might pick up, but intentions *don't* count in the grand scheme of things and when getting called out it's so much better to learn something than to get in a snit about it.
I couldn't agree with this more.
Perpetually, whenever these discussions come up- no matter the community- I hear, time and time again, that the problems are caused by the "small but vocal majority." And I have never, in my experience, found that to be true. We have a habit of thinking that sexism or racism or other isms are only really perpetrated by the terrible bigots. And people have a bad habit of jumping from "someone said what I did was sexist" to "they're saying I'm a sexist," which apparently means "they think I'm a terrible bigot" because apparently sexism is only perpetrated by the terrible bigots. It's not.
Yes, there are some that are extremely vocal and virulent about their hate- but it is actually microagressions that typically show me what a community thinks of my belonging there. Frequently, these are people who'd never think that they were doing something sexist/racist/etc. but... their actions, in small ways, tell me otherwise. When people say the problems are perpetrated by a few, they're shoving off the blame and not listening to how they, personally, could do better.
One thing that people need to acknowledge is that, thanks to the social power structures we're acculturated with from birth, all of us have, on some level, absorbed some amount of sexism or racism or homophobia, etc. And even when we're doing our best to dismantle that, we're going to make mistakes. So when we do make mistakes, we need to be willing to 1) acknowledge that we fucked up, 2) apologize, 3) listen, 4) work to do better in the future, 5) accept that our mistake might have pissed some people off and admit to ourselves that they have a good reason for that, and 6) not get defensive even in the face of that anger.
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