Draining monsters should be temporary


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 17:31

Draining monsters should be temporary

Currently monsters that are drained can permanently lose HD and max HP. This promotes things like hitting an ogre with a draining weapon, running away until you regenerate, then hitting it again, until its max HP is low enough to just kill it.

Instead, I suggest that draining a monster should give it a "drained" enchantment that stacks, expires with time, and reduces their HD for all purposes other than experience gain, to a minimum of 1. Remove the max HP reduction entirely since it is inconsistent with new player draining and poor gameplay in the first place anyway (you can't easily tell how much damage you've done).
You'd also want to increase the chance of draining weapons draining HD so that they actually have a noticeable effect aside from damage.

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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 19:02

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

I'm concerned that temporary HD drain would be mostly meaningless, the actual abilities of many monsters aren't very largely dependent on HD, so the HD drain would have to be pretty large to have any noticeable effect at all, and more likely you'd want some sort of additional effect (like straight up reduction of base damage? spell failure chance? something?)

Also what would happen to creatures that are drained multiple times, extended duration of a status like that is completely meaningless for most combats, so it'd have to be greater effect, so would the creature lose more and more HD?
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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 19:10

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

Siegurt wrote:I'm concerned that temporary HD drain would be mostly meaningless, the actual abilities of many monsters aren't very largely dependent on HD, so the HD drain would have to be pretty large to have any noticeable effect at all, and more likely you'd want some sort of additional effect (like straight up reduction of base damage? spell failure chance? something?)

This is already a problem with the current draining effect, except in degenerate cases where you're actually employing the drain/retreat tactics that minmay described.

Siegurt wrote:Also what would happen to creatures that are drained multiple times, extended duration of a status like that is completely meaningless for most combats, so it'd have to be greater effect, so would the creature lose more and more HD?

Like corrosion, yes, just as draining works now.
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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 19:11

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

Perhaps make draining affect the monster capabilities that equate to skills a player might have. Reduced chance to hit for example.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 19:12

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

reducing HD reduces chance to hit

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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 19:20

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

Well, as long as the new damage is as good as the old damage, it sounds like a great plan. (In case you didn't know, currently draining is one of the better damage brands, but you can't really tell because the fsim can't account for the reduced max HP, although I posted a patch for that)

The permanent max-HP and max-HD drain were always incidental for me, personally, the better ability to kill stuff is always why I have always uses a draining weapon.
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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 22:00

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

Removing the XP loss from drain would be a nice side effect of this, encouraging a lot of newer players to use a brand/spell they would otherwise avoid.

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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 22:37

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

Making a fake commit that pretends to remove the "xp loss from drain" would also achieve the exact same thing.

But yes having drain do permanent HD and HP damage is silly and the rate at which the damage is done isn't very appropriate either, most of the time if you would actually consider it would lead to stupid things like the OP suggests (thankfully the chance of this being the best course of action is extremely low); but as something to actually consider in most fights it just doesn't do enough to matter unless you artificially cause the battle to drag on.
And really, reduction to HD without messing with enemy max HP would be interesting if done in appropriate amounts. It carries very significant effects that'd also help make it different from "elec but worse and checks a more common resistance".

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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 22:49

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

I'd honestly rather just see monster draining be a temporary debuff. There are lots of +damage brands, but the only debuff brand is anti-magic. A similarly significant malus applied to melee or missile enemies would at least make for a different thing to choose from.

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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 22:57

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

Anti-magic is also extremely strong, to the point of needing its own special drawback to keep any semblance of balance. I'd be fine with a more sane brand like draining having a decent weakening effect (draining HD does a lot for a lot of monsters) and it also has a bit of damage on top. Sounds swell to me.
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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 23:41

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

duvessa wrote:reducing HD reduces chance to hit

HD affects a ton of things:
-Chance to hit, as said
-Ability to use a shield to block and bypass a shield of its target
-Damage/accuracy done with a ranged attack, the accuracy bonus scales even faster with HD if they are an 'archer' tagged monster
-Damage/accuracy done with spells (Also some things you might not think it would affect, like monster summon forest damage and anything that explicitly checks a skill on the user - notable exceptions are hellfire and smiting)
-Nastiness of a blowgun
-Chance to succeed a stealth check on you (monster in your LOS spontaneously goes from sleep to wander or wander to seek after you make a turn, rather than you disturbing/annoying/damaging it yourself) (goes up with monster intelligence, HD and if they have sense invisible, and if they're wandering and their desired target is you, goes sharply down if you are invisible, down if sleeping if natural, up if sleeping if not natural)
-Chance to cast a spell (25% at HD 0, 40% at HD 30)
-Resistance to mephitic cloud and dazzling spray (and confusing touch?)
-How strong monster constriction is at keeping you from escaping (opposed by strength and how many attempts you've made to escape, teleporting out of a constriction adds an extra attempt to the attempt counter before rolling)
-How easily a monster can escape your constriction if it attempts to
-Tracers. When a monster is deciding if it can cast a spell at its target or not, it first fires a tracer that accumulates the HD (XL if the player) of all friends and foes to it along the way. It will decide to fire only if the comparison of the two indicates it will do more harm to its foes than harm to its allies, in a crude way. (This is why you might see an ogre mage cast banishment at one of its allies - it wants to banish you and thinks weak allies in its way are irrelevant!)
-Range of possibilities for polymorph
-Chance to apply hexes (MR is tied to HD)
-Spell power of a monster zapping a wand
-Monster skills (important for the monster using a rod or wand, holding a pain weapon, and general spells/skills whenever the game would ask about it, like casting spectral weapon, using an enchanter staff melee, etc etc, lots of esoteric stuff goes here)
-Duration of hexes (A hex's length is divided by (HD+N) where N is different for each hex, so as HD goes down, length of hex goes up. Effects pretty much EVERY negative effect you can put on a monster except for a few, see mon-ench.cc for details)
-How easy it is to convert an orc as Beogh
-How likely it is that undead slaves abandon you in Yred penance / orcs abandon you in Beogh penance (again, lower it is the more control you have)
-How long the block of ice lasts if you glaciate it/pillar of salt lasts if you saltify it with Zin
-How strong the added damage from AF_... melee flavours is (this makes fire elementals get stronger the more powerfully they're summoned, for example, besides just HP and the other stuff) (This also includes enemies that poison with their melee, not sure about how venom works yet, confusing melee, including from chaos, and antimagic melee on the player, drowning melee...)
-Resistance to the Crusade card
-Resistance to Cheibriados' Bend Time
-Duration of antimagic brand's effects on them (the calculation is 1d(pow*8 / HD) * 10 auts)
-Resistance to having weapon removed by player tendril disarming
-Stuff related to slime creature/abom merging that mostly isn't relevant
-Monsters that do a battle cry do a level 2 battle cry if their HD is 13 or higher (I am not sure what the difference is)
-How badly a lost soul will want to revive it
-If the monsters around a siren's HD add up to enough, the siren will not summon drowned souls, else it will summon them (cool, new secret tech learned...)
-The strength of a siren's drowned souls
-The strength of octopode crusher throws, mesmerising, lightning spire lightning, fire crab fire, dragon/draconian breaths weapons, oklob plant/sapling chance to shoot acid
-Convokers only bother to convoke if they can find enough combined HD of stuff to convoke
-Stuff to do with druid's call/druid's awakening/druid's final boon on death strength and targetting
-How well TSO/Trog's abjuration protection works (the higher the HD of the thing trying to be abjured, the closer it has to be to timing out before abjuring it is successful)
-How long monster Trog's Hand lasts and how strong monster Brothers in Arms is
-How Beogh spreads experience amongst your orcs (it calculates total HD of all orcish followers, then gives to each a share proportional to their HD)
-Strength of monster stoneskin/ozo's
-Chance for a shapeshifter to shift goes up with HD
-How hard it is to shield a boulder beetle rolling into you goes up with HD
-Regeneration rate goes up with HD
-Monster A and B must be related and A must have higher HD than B for A to be B's senior. Seniority is a requirement to swap places.
-Accuracy bonus from monster portal projectile
-Chance for the monster to appear in the abyss if you banish it and it's not a unique (uniques always go to the abyss)
-Monsters only bother with picking up wands if their HD is 13 or less. (rip wand of magic darts secret tech btw)
-Monster resistance to recite
-Apparently you can confuse a monster (foo is stunned!) if you stab them with a club and the damage done is above random2(HD), is this a thing that still happens?
-CHAOS_MISCAST gets more powerful effects if the defender is higher HD/XL

And finally things that aren't relevant to this topic (because the proposed new!Draining wouldn't/shouldn't affect them):
-The max HP
-The experience worth (ties into monster levelling up system too - it works even if you're not of Beogh, it's just most noticable if you worship Beogh)
-The strength of a CBL/prism exploding
-How much your god cares about the corpse/piety from the kill/conduct breach?/etc
-How much Makhleb/TSO/Veh gives back on a kill (also for TSO healing allies?)
-In cases where the undead reverts to a generic 'orc' or 'human' etc when raised, the HD determines how strong the new undead is, or something like that
-A monster must be 5 HD or more for it to get a top tier wand on generation - unless it's Ijyb. Go figure.
-It looks like uniques are more likely to have good equipment the higher their HD is or something like that too.

Also, a fun trivia fact: Hell beasts start with 4-7 HD, 2-6 AC and 7-11 EV randomly whenever generated.
Last edited by Patashu on Wednesday, 9th July 2014, 09:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 8th July 2014, 23:46

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

I knew that!

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Post Wednesday, 9th July 2014, 07:53

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

Patashu wrote:
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duvessa wrote:reducing HD reduces chance to hit

HD affects a ton of things:
-Chance to hit, as said
-Ability to use a shield to block and bypass a shield of its target
-Damage/accuracy done with a ranged attack, the accuracy bonus scales even faster with HD if they are an 'archer' tagged monster
-Damage/accuracy done with spells (Also some things you might not think it would affect, like monster summon forest damage and anything that explicitly checks a skill on the user - notable exceptions are hellfire and smiting)
-Nastiness of a blowgun
-Chance to succeed a stealth check on you (monster in your LOS spontaneously goes from sleep to wander or wander to seek after you make a turn, rather than you disturbing/annoying/damaging it yourself) (goes up with monster intelligence, HD and if they have sense invisible, and if they're wandering and their desired target is you, goes sharply down if you are invisible, down if sleeping if natural, up if sleeping if not natural)
-Chance to cast a spell (25% at HD 0, 40% at HD 30)
-Resistance to mephitic cloud and dazzling spray (and confusing touch?)
-How strong monster constriction is at keeping you from escaping (opposed by strength and how many attempts you've made to escape, teleporting out of a constriction adds an extra attempt to the attempt counter before rolling)
-How easily a monster can escape your constriction if it attempts to
-Tracers. When a monster is deciding if it can cast a spell at its target or not, it first fires a tracer that accumulates the HD (XL if the player) of all friends and foes to it along the way. It will decide to fire only if the comparison of the two indicates it will do more harm to its foes than harm to its allies, in a crude way. (This is why you might see an ogre mage cast banishment at one of its allies - it wants to banish you and thinks weak allies in its way are irrelevant!)
-Range of possibilities for polymorph
-Chance to apply hexes (MR is tied to HD)
-Spell power of a monster zapping a wand
-Monster skills (important for the monster using a rod or wand, holding a pain weapon, and general spells/skills whenever the game would ask about it, like casting spectral weapon, using an enchanter staff melee, etc etc, lots of esoteric stuff goes here)
-Duration of hexes (A hex's length is divided by (HD+N) where N is different for each hex, so as HD goes down, length of hex goes up. Effects pretty much EVERY negative effect you can put on a monster except for a few, see mon-ench.cc for details)
-How easy it is to convert an orc as Beogh
-How likely it is that undead slaves abandon you in Yred penance / orcs abandon you in Beogh penance (again, lower it is the more control you have)
-How long the block of ice lasts if you glaciate it/pillar of salt lasts if you saltify it with Zin
-How strong the added damage from AF_... melee flavours is (this makes fire elementals get stronger the more powerfully they're summoned, for example, besides just HP and the other stuff) (This also includes enemies that poison with their melee, not sure about how venom works yet, confusing melee, including from chaos, and antimagic melee on the player, drowning melee...)
-Apparently, the MORE HD an enemy has if it gets hit by sticky flame, the MORE layers of sticky flame are placed on it? (Either I'm reading this wrong or this is a bug/unintuitive. It's in beam.cc if you care to look)
-Resistance to the Crusade card
-Resistance to Cheibriados' Bend Time
-Duration of antimagic brand's effects on them (the calculation is 1d(pow*8 / HD) * 10 auts)
-Resistance to having weapon removed by player tendril disarming
-Stuff related to slime creature/abom merging that mostly isn't relevant
-Monsters that do a battle cry do a level 2 battle cry if their HD is 13 or higher (I am not sure what the difference is)
-How badly a lost soul will want to revive it
-If the monsters around a siren's HD add up to enough, the siren will not summon drowned souls, else it will summon them (cool, new secret tech learned...)
-The strength of a siren's drowned souls
-The strength of octopode crusher throws, mesmerising, lightning spire lightning, fire crab fire, dragon/draconian breaths weapons, oklob plant/sapling chance to shoot acid
-Convokers only bother to convoke if they can find enough combined HD of stuff to convoke
-Stuff to do with druid's call/druid's awakening/druid's final boon on death strength and targetting
-How well TSO/Trog's abjuration protection works (the higher the HD of the thing trying to be abjured, the closer it has to be to timing out before abjuring it is successful)
-How long monster Trog's Hand lasts and how strong monster Brothers in Arms is
-How Beogh spreads experience amongst your orcs (it calculates total HD of all orcish followers, then gives to each a share proportional to their HD)
-Strength of monster stoneskin/ozo's
-Chance for a shapeshifter to shift goes up with HD
-How hard it is to shield a boulder beetle rolling into you goes up with HD
-Regeneration rate goes up with HD
-Monster A and B must be related and A must have higher HD than B for A to be B's senior. Seniority is a requirement to swap places.
-Accuracy bonus from monster portal projectile
-Chance for the monster to appear in the abyss if you banish it and it's not a unique (uniques always go to the abyss)
-Monsters only bother with picking up wands if their HD is 13 or less. (rip wand of magic darts secret tech btw)
-Monster resistance to recite
-Apparently you can confuse a monster (foo is stunned!) if you stab them with a club and the damage done is above random2(HD), is this a thing that still happens?
-CHAOS_MISCAST gets more powerful effects if the defender is higher HD/XL

And finally things that aren't relevant to this topic (because the proposed new!Draining wouldn't/shouldn't affect them):
-The max HP
-The experience worth (ties into monster levelling up system too - it works even if you're not of Beogh, it's just most noticable if you worship Beogh)
-The strength of a CBL/prism exploding
-How much your god cares about the corpse/piety from the kill/conduct breach?/etc
-How much Makhleb/TSO/Veh gives back on a kill (also for TSO healing allies?)
-In cases where the undead reverts to a generic 'orc' or 'human' etc when raised, the HD determines how strong the new undead is, or something like that
-A monster must be 5 HD or more for it to get a top tier wand on generation - unless it's Ijyb. Go figure.
-It looks like uniques are more likely to have good equipment the higher their HD is or something like that too.

Also, a fun trivia fact: Hell beasts start with 4-7 HD, 2-6 AC and 7-11 EV randomly whenever generated.

i don't think i've ever learned so much from a single post

but jeasle weasle, how much time do you spend code-diving

you're not even orange
Wins (Does not include my GrEE^Veh 15-runer...stupid experimental branch)
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Post Wednesday, 9th July 2014, 08:54

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

tedric wrote:i don't think i've ever learned so much from a single post

but jeasle weasle, how much time do you spend code-diving

you're not even orange

I think that post took an hour to write? It's handy to have for reference, I made an entry in the learndb linking to it
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Post Wednesday, 9th July 2014, 09:30

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

The sticky flame thing got fixed ( http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... e9270f5618 ) so I removed it, thx MarvinPA

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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 03:31

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

Done.

Now Patashu gets to update his post ;)

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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 04:42

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

PleasingFungus wrote:Done.

Now Patashu gets to update his post ;)

I hope to see people playtest new!Draining! Wonder how good it is now.

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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 10:18

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

So does it now make sense to hit something with a dagger of draining, then switch to a larger weapon to finish it off? I probably shouldn't whine before actually encountering the brand in a game.

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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 17:35

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

PleasingFungus wrote:Done.

Now Patashu gets to update his post ;)


Awesome. Also very thorough and good explanation in the commit note. :)

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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 18:15

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

jejorda2 wrote:So does it now make sense to hit something with a dagger of draining, then switch to a larger weapon to finish it off? I probably shouldn't whine before actually encountering the brand in a game.


I would be skeptical that this is going to happen in any realistic case, although I haven't tried it out in-game yet either. Weapon-swapping twice and attacking with the wrong weapon is going to consume time, and you could have spent that time inflicting dead status instead, just by using your larger weapon extra times. To get a positive benefit, you'd need to have an opponent that lasts many turns but doesn't actually threaten to kill you in that time. In that case the best fix is probably just to remove the offending non-threatening monster.

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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 18:26

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

And if it does prove to be a problem, you can always make this new drain debuff expire (even) more quickly if it isn't being reapplied. At the least, antimagic is a "proof of concept," I think: A debuff-based weapon brand can be good and tactically meaningful without encouraging too much in the way of "hit until debuff, then swap" tactics.

(Weapon swapping with anti-magic is somewhat common but that's because the brand doesn't do anything against non-magic users, which is a separate issue. My point is that the debuff wears off fast enough that if you aren't continuously using it, you shouldn't bother. If needed, draining could be implemented a similar way. But it might not even be needed.)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 18:36

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

Just a quick double-check here on review of the commits:

If multiple hits of drain just extend the effect duration rather than enhance the effect itself, to me, that would encourage hitting with drain, then swapping weapons.

EDIT: Ha, that'll serve me for reading commits on RSS then going straight to the thread to post rather than read the updated thread...
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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 19:12

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

Making the draining duration for each hit proportional to damage instead of fixed (and maybe it's already that way) would help prevent swapping, too.

But I like that old draining is alternately multiplicative and additive, so it's good for both fast and heavy weapons. Oh well.

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Post Monday, 14th July 2014, 21:18

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

jejorda2 wrote:Making the draining duration for each hit proportional to damage instead of fixed (and maybe it's already that way) would help prevent swapping, too.

But I like that old draining is alternately multiplicative and additive, so it's good for both fast and heavy weapons. Oh well.

It looks to me like the commit didn't change the damage done, it just removed the 'max hps get reduced by x, and HD gets reduced' portion.
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Post Tuesday, 15th July 2014, 02:09

Re: Draining monsters should be temporary

Siegurt wrote:
jejorda2 wrote:Making the draining duration for each hit proportional to damage instead of fixed (and maybe it's already that way) would help prevent swapping, too.

But I like that old draining is alternately multiplicative and additive, so it's good for both fast and heavy weapons. Oh well.

It looks to me like the commit didn't change the damage done, it just removed the 'max hps get reduced by x, and HD gets reduced' portion.

Damage done per trigger isn't changed, but it now triggers 50% of the time instead of 2/3 of the time, so it'll do less damage over time.

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