Rebalance dragon armors, possibly make hides easier to find

[tasonir]

Proposal: Make dragon armors more balanced and useful. I'm going to start with a quote from and into, over in YASD/YAVP forums.

All the dragon armors tend in practice to be pretty bad unless 1.) you have an unusually high number of ?enchant armor; 2.) you find a dragon hide early on; 3.) you find a dragon armor early, or else not so early but it already has some +s on it.

Of those three events, #2 isn't so rare for mottled, steam, swamp, and occasionally FDA and IDA. However FDA and IDA are often annoying since they give an elemental vulnerability, which is sometimes a pain to work around, but if that's not a problem for your character they are good. Assuming you manage to get one early enough. For all the other dragon armors, any of those three events happening is very rare. And in the case of 1.) you could opt to eventually switch to a dragon armor, but it will probably be mid- or late game.

Aside from all the above, GDA has the highest encumbrance and the worst base AC:encumbrance ratio of any armor the game, and by the time you are actually fighting the dragons that can make that hide, you probably (hopefully) already have at least decent resistances. While it is nice to double dip when possible, in general the most important thing your body armor provides is good base defenses (AC+EV) for your character, just as your weapon should mostly be about increasing your damage output. Extra resists on those slots are great and it is pretty easy/common to get a good armor for your character that gives some useful property, but the most important things to look for in a body armor are good base defenses. In the vast majority of games your rings can cover necessary resistances. So having such a bad AC:encumbrance ratio is a big problem, unless you are like a centaur or something and by virtue of that fact almost certainly not going to be getting decent EV, anyway.

So there's a general problem with *some* dragon armors coming too late, some having negative resistances which might preclude you from being able to use them based solely on if the RNG has given you enough of that resist to offset it, and some armors being decidely poor choices for just about everyone - GDA, namely. So what should change?

Dragon armors which are generally considered the best: Steam/Mottled dragon armors. These likely don't need any changes. Swamp dragon armor isn't generally considered "the best" but I would include it in the "does not need any changes" category.

FDA/IDA: These armors offer tricky +2 -1 resists, and should, imho become more like draconian resists: You just get +1 of the positive resist, with no elemental weakness.

Storm dragon armor: This one is a bit tricker just because of where it sits on the encumbrance scale, and that rElec usually isn't that commonly needed, but I can't think of much that would be a good change for it. It's already had some encumbrance knocked off since it used to have -4EVP, so it may be just fine. Possibly drop 1 more encumbrance? I could go either way.

Gold dragon armor: the albatross of dragon armors, this is coveted by newbies and generally dismissed by experts for basically every character. Not wearing it considered a no brainer, yet somehow the inexperienced are drawn like moths to a flame to it's shiny 12 ac and 3 resistances. I'm not sure what we can do to address the issue of needing to have 13 enchant armor scrolls, but I think considerably reducing the encumbrance would be a good first step. GDA and CPA had their encumbrance slightly reduced recently, but I'd advise going even lower on GDA. Most dragon armor is lighter than it's counterpart metal armor, and GDA suddenly reverses this rule. Being between plate and CPA in AC, it somehow has higher encumbrance than even the CPA - I'd make it line up between the two just as it's ac does, with an encumbrance somewhere in the lower 20's - Possibly try 22-24 to start, although this may not be the final value.

To address the enchant armor scroll issue, heavier dragon armors could have a chance to not end up as +0 after enchanting the hide - either always come out at a certain level (+1 for FDA/IDA/PDA and +2 for storm/gold?) or let it roll an enchantment level with something like 1d3 - 1.

And I'd like to see an increased likelihood of hides generating around lair subbranch levels, swamp, spider, etc (or even earlier). This would probably be most important if we wanted to make GDA less rare, but could help for storm dragon armor and fire/ice as well. It may also make pearl dragon armor into something that exists, if pearl hides were included.

TLDR: Recommended changes:
Make fire/ice dragon armors only give one pip of their resist with no negative resist.
Reduce the encumbrance on GDA by up to several points, with a rough suggested encumbrance value of roughly 22-24.

Possible changes:
Possibly reduce storm dragon armor encumbrance by 1.
Make enchant armor on hides give a few bonus levels of enchantment so dragon armors don't always start at 0.
Increase the generation of hides as floor loot at roughly lair rune branch depth, or earlier.

[and into]

Well, to give proper context, I was speaking in terms of advice, not game design. From a game design perspective, many of the dragon armors are rarer but better than their more common counterparts (barring really good artefacts), which is fine.

Also I chose my words in a deliberate attempt to "bend the stick the other way," to some extent, because lots of new(ish) players read about dragon armors on the wiki or whatever and are overly impressed by them, and hoard ?enchant armor when a good piece of equipment could be further enchanted in the hopes that they get one. I certainly did that when I first started, and I've seen lots of other people fall into that trap.

TLDR: Recommended changes:
Make fire/ice dragon armors only give one pip of their resist with no negative resist.
Reduce the encumbrance on GDA by up to several points, with a rough suggested encumbrance value of roughly 22-24.

Possible changes:
Make enchant armor on hides give a few bonus levels of enchantment so dragon armors don't always start at 0.

... That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to any of the changes quoted above. The ++/- attribute of FDA and IDA is distinctive, granted, but because resistances don't progress linearly, I think many players (especially new ones) tend to see this as being a better trade off than it actually is. GDA could use a bit of reduction in encumbrance, certainly; I think that's the least controversial change you recommend.

As for hide generation giving some +s, I'd be okay with that if the likelihood of +s scaled up with base AC, and if it wasn't guaranteed. There would be a bit of a gamble using ?enchant armor on dragon hides, but if I had a decent shot at making a +2 FDA or StormDA and a small chance at getting +3, or something, I could see that actually providing some neat strategic considerations in terms of when/how to use ?enchant armor on some characters, which tends to be pretty straightforward right now once you get a good sense of how common certain armors are.

As for the other two changes you suggest, however, I think reducing encumbrance on storm DA seems unnecessary, it already got a small buff in that area and I think it is OK now.

Increasing generation of hides as floor loot seems really bad OTOH, because the niche of dragon armors is that they are rare but usually pretty good.

[tasonir]

Fair enough, I realize that generating a bunch of hides is probably going to be a noticable power creep. Pearl dragon armor in particular is probably only balanced with its rarity, although you can also make the case that rN is a pretty weak resistance in a 3 rune game. Probably still not enough to justify 10 ac 11 encumbrace, though. If it was more common it could easily become 9/11 though.

In any case, limiting this proposal to just the recommended, core changes would still make me quite happy, so I'm all for that. Making GDA into a semi-common choice is probably a pipe dream

[duvessa]

If it was more common it could easily become 9/11 though.

Dude that's a bit of an exaggeration don't you think

[KoboldLord]

I don't really see a problem. Given arbitrary availability of hides and enchant scrolls, the dragon armours would be the ones you pick. Their main drawback is that you can't really afford to wait around for them to spawn, but that makes them more special when they do spawn early enough to pivot your game around them. It is a point of good game balance that the player feels pressured to use the loot they actually have (plate) rather than chasing after their ultimate ascension kit loot.

Well-enchanted GDA isn't actually that bad if you have the strength to use it and it happens to spawn on the floor. GDA-land just happens to be a Very Bad Place for heavy armor characters that don't have any heavy armor to go, and 13 extra enchant scrolls are almost never going to spawn anyway. The situations where GDA is the best choice are rarer than any other kind of armor, but they do exist.

[SchwaWarrior]

It's true that the Resistance rebalance would make dragon armours of all kinds more straightforward and less gimmicky. I suppose I approve.

There is one thing I would like to say about Pearl Armour, though. It ought to be changed to offer rHoly, not rN. It should be the only item in the game to offer rHoly because there currently is none, and considering how rare the thing is, the change would make that item into the novelty it's supposed to be. It already has superior AC compared to all the other dragon armours (talking about AC to Encumbrance ratio of course) so the niche, situational exclusiveness of rHoly would be just fine, since the AC superiority would be another fantastic reason to wear it.

If we're worried about negating the hugest weakness of Demonspawn and Undead races this way, we could just make it so those races could not wear PDA (just like how they can't wield a Holy Wrath weapon) or at least that the rHoly effect was negated if those races wore it.

This issue with PDA has been on my mind for a lot longer than the other dragon armours, so I thought I would mention it here.

I like the thought of rebalancing the other ones though; I would love to wear FDA or IDA more often than I get a safe chance to, and I have never once wore StormDA because 95% of the time I have some source of rElec by the time I find one and there's no point to it (compared to wearing something else).

[Psiweapon]

The post above is awesome, but making a holy resistance item and making it unavailable for unholy races is being just plain mean.

[Mulzaro]

The post above is awesome, but making a holy resistance item and making it unavailable for unholy races is being just plain mean.

Poor mummies

[Patashu]

If we're worried about negating the hugest weakness of Demonspawn and Undead races this way, we could just make it so those races could not wear PDA (just like how they can't wield a Holy Wrath weapon) or at least that the rHoly effect was negated if those races wore it.

It could always 'cancel out' so they end up with the same rHoly as a human.
And undead still have to worry about dispel undead.

[tasonir]

If pearl becomes rHoly, I want shadow dragon armor with 9 ac/11 encumbrance and rN+

[Speleothing]

Of the problems listed above, I'd say that the lack of +s is the one that's the biggest concern to me.

It can be really scary to drop that enchant armor scroll on a hide, knowing that it will be +0 and you'll need to come up with a pile of scrolls to make it good.

[Patashu]

If pearl becomes rHoly, I want shadow dragon armor with 9 ac/11 encumbrance and rN+

Iron Dragon Armour when

[Sprucery]

Quicksilver DA: +speed.

[XuaXua]

Making Enchant Armour work more effectively at low enchantment would be a good step to

• making the scrolls useful
• giving players more choices for swapping non-artefact armour
• make players and more willing to USE enchant armour scrolls and make enchantment mistakes

How would I do this?

An Enchant Armour scroll use will always give a +1.
An Enchant Armour scrolls will always give subsequent chances of additional +1's with each chance equal to

  Code:

Absolute Value((1-AbsoluteValue((Current Enchantment-1)/Maximum Enchantment))*(Maximum Enchantment*0.1))

ending at the first failure.

For the formula, "Current Enchantment" is the enchantment of the armour, including the guaranteed +1 or conversion to +0 for a hide that was just added (and any subsequent +1 from the current attempts)
and
"(Maximum Enchantment *0.1)" is a scaled chance reducer.

Yes, there is a chance this will increase a +0 armour straight to +9. Make the scrolls rarer to compensate.

  Code:

CUR MAX CHANCE
-5   9   0.30
-4   9   0.40
-3   9   0.50
-2   9   0.60
-1   9   0.70
hide   9   1
0   9   0.80
1   9   0.90
2   9   0.80
3   9   0.70
4   9   0.60
5   9   0.50
6   9   0.40
7   9   0.30
8   9   0.20
9   9   0.10
      
CUR MAX CHANCE
-3   2   0.20
-2   2   0.10
-1   2   0.00
0   2   0.10
1   2   0.20
2   2   0.10


[Psiweapon]

I always wanted Xtahua to drop a hide. Even if it's a regular hide {Xtahua}, just like with Snorg and Purgy :3

But yeah, Crawl, y u no Iron, Shadow or Quicksilver dragon armor?

Pearl -> rHoly, ¿partially? neutralizing vulnerability for unholy races
Shadow -> heavy, ???
Quicksilver -> medium, MR++
Iron -> heavy, ???


Also, GDA should be made actually worth it instead of a fetishist noob item (I love it)

[Bloax]

Xtahua drops a fire dragon hide, so it's perfectly plausible to have a Fire Dragon Armour {Xtahua}.

What would be more interesting is unique hides having more properties than just their genus counterparts.

[Ghoul King]

I will note that I have one time seen Gold Dragon Armor before I reached the Ecumenical Temple, just lying around. (Naturally, I was playing a Draconian) If I'd been playing a straight warrior able to wear it (Say a Troglodyte Ogre) I would've jumped for joy and worn it right there, and probably never replaced it barring an amazing artifact.

In general I like the dynamic dragon armors provide, just for the fact that a rare, powerful enemy is still worth fighting because it provides good quality loot. I wouldn't like to see that muddied that by making hides particularly common, or sold by regular armor stores, or some such It's also worth noting Armor skill only pays attention to base AC: it won't provide more AC for having higher pluses on the armor, so even if you've put a few scrolls into your current armor your armor skill may mean that the Dragon armor is an overall increase in AC.

[red_kangaroo]

Bone dragon armor {*Animate Dead}

[dck]

If by interesting you mean plain better I guess.
I don't think uniques that happen to belong to a race you can get a hide from should not only offer said hide but a better version of it. If the hide exists at all it's because it's a item that merits existence on its own and thus is interesting to a number of characters already.
Similarly I don't think adding more armor items to the game that cover no actual gap in the existing armor selection just because enemies belonging to the same genus and which you can skin exist is a reasonable approach at all.
Mind you, sure there are plenty of suggestions floating around whenever this comes up: "oh QDA can be MDA with MR", "oh ShDA can be light with a bonus to stealth!" -or perhaps we could design new armors in a way that is not insane and is not arbitrarily dictated by notions of symmetry that do not have a place in the game and the stats of monsters that were designed to be goddamn monsters and not walking wardrobes.

I believe the current armor selection if pretty good and that DAs and regular armor do a good job at competing with each others; that doesn't mean the selection cannot be improved and perhaps adding new armors is a way to improve it indeed, but I would emphasize the design of new armor possibilities based on deficiencies spotted within the existing armors.

[Psiweapon]

I brought up Xtahua because in all the times I've killed it, I never saw a hide (i'm perfectly happy with it being a regular hide) or even a CORPSE so I thought it didn't exist.

new hide armor:

Elven Leather Armor (wiz)

>:}

[sgrunt]

bone dragon armour {SH+5}

Large bone plates, anyone?

[Psiweapon]

bone dragon armour {SH+5}

Large bone plates, anyone?

please

I had thought of this, but had I written it, it'd have been hammered down, so THANKS DEV FOR COMING UP ON YOUR OWN WITH MY SUGGESTION.

Still, bone dragons don't leave corpses, so are you just kidding?

[dck]

GRUNT stop playing with people's feelings
D:

[Speleothing]

Bone dragons sometimes drop dragon skull helmets, wearable by Ogres & Trolls.
Or the +5 SH idea - that's good too.

Iron Dragons are even heavier than Gold Dragons, and therefore offer >CPM levels of protection, but for Large races only. No resists.

[tasonir]

I believe the current armor selection if pretty good and that DAs and regular armor do a good job at competing with each others; that doesn't mean the selection cannot be improved and perhaps adding new armors is a way to improve it indeed, but I would emphasize the design of new armor possibilities based on deficiencies spotted within the existing armors.

There are plenty of gaps imho; starting with no rF/rC dragon armors, which I'd prefer to the r++ and r- versions we have. No MR dragon armor. The rN dragon armor might as well not exist with how available it is. I think there is definitely room for a +SH armor, possibly competing with CPA in the huge AC with slightly more reasonable encumbrance area. Let's make that bone dragon armor actually drop - bone dragons can leave behind a 'large pile of dragon bones'.

I guess it depends on if you want there to be 20 armor choices or think 15 is enough. I suppose we don't need infinite body armors, but something like 7ac/9 encumbrance MR would be a very popular dragon armor, imho. Assuming it was reasonable to find it.

[dck]

See, what I mean by gaps in armor selection is "gaps in armor selection taking into account all armor". I think that just because some armor exists that is available only through a ?EA toll that does not make them intrinsically different from other armors that don't have such a toll. They all serve the same function.

We have to start from the following: if armors were added they would have to be common enough to be worth considering (this means not GDA tier, but FDA at worst), from there rF and rC dragon armors made available at a point that is not ridiculous would just be better metal armors overall and better FDAs and IDAs; theoretical QDAs that would give MR would be better ego ring mails, and indeed a dragon armor analogue of CPA would be crazy for reasons that hopefully require no explanation.
As a player you want these things. You want them because they would be powerful and you want the power and want it now. It is normal from that mindset to presume their non-existence is more of an oversight or dev meanness than anything else; imagine you're making a system of armors for a game and you have a varied and common subset of amors which can have several interesting properties with no special drawbacks and a less common subset that are expensive to create and which provide superior base stats compared to the more common one, but either have no interesting properties or carry some sort of drawback. You also add some silly ones with silly attributes that'll never show up early enough to be any relevant because you like silly things like that, but once all is done, would you add some to the uncommon subset that offer access to both the interesting properties and the better than average base stats?
And if your answer is yes, why in the name of god would you do that?

See, by doing that you have very easily achieved two things: One, you've successfully alienated all of your sensible players who don't want to die into hating themselves because of taking the "suboptimal" choice of getting defenses up when it matters the most instead of waiting a varying amount of time to score one of the overpowered hides. Two you've made everyone else ignore all of your work on the common armors part because why would they bother with that when there's straight up better stuff waiting a tad later down the road?
Now surely you value your time, you value your work. Would you make most of it on this field go to waste because of a heap of items that encourage hoarding and ignoring other options until you get exactly what you want?
Yes of course, it could be argued that doing that is its own punishment, that you're only crippling yourself for power that'll never truly help you the way the more common armors could have. Yes, fine that would be an argument, but is that not a huge dick move? Is it not pretty shitty of you to just toy with the honesty of a question such as "what armors are available and how can I stay the alivest"? I think it is.

So closing this, no I don't think the perceived "gaps" in DA that offer the best of both worlds are actual gaps supposed to be filled by DA at all, and I certainly don't think that tweaks to tangential factors such as spawning depth would do the idea much good, since this tends to be a binary matter in a game with permadeath and would wind up to be either "too late" or "soon enough".

[Speleothing]

I don't think there are any particularly pressing ideas in this thread except making PDA, already probably the rarest base armor, into rHoly. Particularly since rN+ is already pretty easy to get, overall.

[Lasty]

Slime dragon armour. Instead of getting plusses, ?EA just randomizes the base AC/encumbrance. Oh, and then we'll want slime dragons with a breath weapons that creates slimes. </CYC>

[partial]

I don't think I've ever actually used a dragon armor aside from when I got a PDA on D1

usually by the time I get one, I already have something better

also I've never seen an artifact DA. do they exist?

[Sar]

do they exist

Yeah, but good luck finding a good one.

[partial]

also I think SteamDA needs something more useful than rSteam (though it's a good armor otherwise)

[Kramin42]

There should be some OOD dragon vaults in mid D with rune doors (I'm thinking like the one that's in lair sometimes). Dragons can't open doors so you could quickly shut it again if it is too dangerous, but it would provide a way of getting a dragon hide early. Obviously vaults are randomised and won't appear every game, but it could be a nice challenge for a nice reward.

[Lasty]

also I think SteamDA needs something more useful than rSteam (though it's a good armor otherwise)

rSteam really doesn't do anything, but 5DA is fine as-is -- it's effectively a robe of +6-9-ish AC, which is a pretty sweet ego.

[partial]

true enough

I just hate having useless bonuses on things, like I'd rather it just not have rSteam at all and just be (functionally) a high-ac robe