Stabbing extension


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 2

Joined: Thursday, 29th May 2014, 03:00

Post Saturday, 31st May 2014, 16:41

Stabbing extension

These ideas were already brought up 2-3 years ago at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... t:stabbing. I would like to exhume them, since it has been a long time and I can't find a record of anyone who was strongly against them.

The Proposal:
- One-handed polearms are treated like long blades for stabbing (I would love to stab a sleeping Polyphemus with a spear....)
- Unarmed stabs on a target smaller than the player are treated like long blades for stabbing ("You snap the foo's neck!")
- Bludgeoning and crushing weapons get the confusion effect currently reserved for clubs and rods

The Motivation:
Stabbing is one of my favorite mechanics in Crawl, and I would like if it came up more often for characters who are not built around it. If a character who is not using short/long blades winds up a few tiles from a sleeping monster I think they should get a bit more of a reward for taking the risk of sneaking closer to it, rather than casting buffs and waking it up or moving away to fight at range. At the same time, short blades should remain distinctive. In particular I don't think any other weapon class should get an additive stabbing bonus.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 291

Joined: Wednesday, 6th June 2012, 18:59

Post Sunday, 1st June 2014, 00:31

Re: Stabbing extension

shoop wrote:One-handed polearms are treated like long blades for stabbing (I would love to stab a sleeping Polyphemus with a spear....)
This is already true for spears.

(More when I get home.)

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6394

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Sunday, 1st June 2014, 00:46

Re: Stabbing extension

Actually spears, tridents, demon tridents and trishulas are all treated like long swords for stabbing (And have been for a long time), as are felid claws.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8782

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Sunday, 1st June 2014, 00:57

Re: Stabbing extension

how about make all weapons (and unarmed), or at least all non-short blades, stab the same

club stab confusion is worthless (you could just wield a short blade and kill the monster instead) and all this stuff like some polearms being stabbier than others is pretty weird
i won't make a statement on whether they should all be long blades stabby or all be axes stabby, but imo having all four of "dagger stabby", "other short blade stabby", "long blade stabby", "axes stabby", plus the useless club confusion thing, is pretty pointless

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Sunday, 1st June 2014, 00:59

Re: Stabbing extension

making stabbing actually short blades' thing would seem to me to be a good (and less confusing to players!) design decision, yes

For this message the author crate has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Halls Hopper

Posts: 87

Joined: Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 17:40

Post Sunday, 1st June 2014, 03:56

Re: Stabbing extension

If stabbing reform happens, (which might be a good idea, if only to make the game (even more) straightforwards for new players,) I would limit stabbing bonuses to short blades and UC. Short blades should stab for obvious reasons- that's pretty much their gimmick. Unarmed combatants are already (pretty heavily) steered away from using heavy armour, and letting them keep a stab bonus seems to keep in line with this. Not to say that UC is a weak school-- it isn't, but it would be weird to penalize heavy armour and not allow stabbing.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Sunday, 1st June 2014, 16:26

Re: Stabbing extension

If stabbing reform happens, which might be a good idea, it should be renamed something equivalent to "critical hit" and applicable to all weapons, but allow different weapon styles to have different bonuses.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1298

Joined: Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 02:42

Location: Sydney, Australia

Post Sunday, 1st June 2014, 23:06

Re: Stabbing extension

XuaXua wrote:If stabbing reform happens, which might be a good idea, it should be renamed something equivalent to "critical hit" and applicable to all weapons, but allow different weapon styles to have different bonuses.

Crawl doesn't need critical hits, and I enjoy that there's no such thing.

For this message the author Patashu has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, duvessa

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 799

Joined: Saturday, 23rd February 2013, 22:25

Post Monday, 2nd June 2014, 00:20

Re: Stabbing extension

XuaXua wrote:If stabbing reform happens, which might be a good idea, it should be renamed something equivalent to "critical hit" and applicable to all weapons, but allow different weapon styles to have different bonuses.

We've allready got horrendous damage spikes, am I correct in thinking you want to make it worse?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6394

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Monday, 2nd June 2014, 01:49

Re: Stabbing extension

All weapons can currently "stab" with varying bonuses depending on the weapon type and stabbing(paralysed/sleeping or confused etc.) type, with damage increasing with the average of stealth/weapon skill.

Here are the marvelous benefits for those that wish to be (over) informed:
Spoiler: show
All "stabs" ignore EV (Automatically hit).

Short blades get a stepped-down bonus to base damage proportional to dex * avg(stealth,weaponskill), ranging from 1-30 (You also get this bonus if you are using boots of the assassin)
All weapons get a percentage bonus to damage done equal to avg(stealth,weaponskill)*8.3%
Additionally all short blades get a percentage bonus equal to avg(stealth,weaponskill)*10%, and Long blades, felid claws, and "poking" polearms get a bonus of avg(stealth,weaponskill)*3.33%

To break that down after all the hoopla:
Shortblades: +(1-30) based on dex & skill (daggers get to +30 twice as quickly as other shortblades), then +avg(stealth,weaponskill)*19.1% damage
Longblades, Felid Claws, poking polearms: +avg(stealth,weaponskill)*11.9% damage
Everything else: +avg(stealth,weaponskill)*8.3% damage


The type of stab you do alters how much of the defender's AC is ignored,
For "sleeping/paralyzed" stabs you ignore avg(stealth,weaponskill) points of AC,
For "Held in a net/Petryfing/Petrified" it's avg(stealth,weaponskill)/2,
For "Invis/confused/Fleeing/ally" it's avg(stealth,weaponskill)/4,
For "distracted" it's avg(stealth,weaponskill)/6

You always stab a sleeping or paralysed enemy, for all other types of stabs, your chances of performing a stab are:
(avg(stealth,weaponskill)+dex+1) in 100 (or in 90 for invis stabs)
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Halls Hopper

Posts: 64

Joined: Sunday, 3rd November 2013, 12:19

Post Monday, 2nd June 2014, 03:47

Re: Stabbing extension

Patashu wrote:Crawl doesn't need critical hits, and I enjoy that there's no such thing.


Crawl already has crits due to high damage variations (damage spikes). They just aren't called crits. And didn't you just said in that other thread that you like your crawl spiky?
Winning races: Ce, DD, DS, Dj, Dr, Fo, Gr, HO, LO, Mf, Mi, Na, Og, Tr
Winning backrounds: AK, Ar, As, Be, Cj, DK, Fi, Gl, Hu, Mo, Pr, Su, Wn
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1298

Joined: Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 02:42

Location: Sydney, Australia

Post Monday, 2nd June 2014, 06:05

Re: Stabbing extension

Zammy wrote:
Patashu wrote:Crawl doesn't need critical hits, and I enjoy that there's no such thing.


Crawl already has crits due to high damage variations (damage spikes). They just aren't called crits. And didn't you just said in that other thread that you like your crawl spiky?

Exactly. It's already got good variance and it doesn't need an extra mechanic to provide extra variance (because it's already all there!)

For this message the author Patashu has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5333

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 3rd June 2014, 01:46

Re: Stabbing extension

Renaming stabbing to critical hitting doesn't increase damage variation. It does, however, drastically increase bikeshedding on the forums. XuaXua only suggested a rename, not a new mechanic.

For this message the author tasonir has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, XuaXua
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 502

Joined: Wednesday, 7th March 2012, 13:25

Location: Lexington, KY, US

Post Tuesday, 3rd June 2014, 16:15

Re: Stabbing extension

tasonir wrote:Renaming stabbing to critical hitting doesn't increase damage variation. It does, however, drastically increase bikeshedding on the forums. XuaXua only suggested a rename, not a new mechanic.


I think the problem is, in other systems "critical hit" means something very different from what we mean by "stabbing". The commenters assumed it meant what it means elsewhere (chance of doing extra damage on every attack).

As for renaming "stabbing" in-game, there's not much to rename: Here are the places where we use the term "stab" in-game to refer to doing extra damage to unaware opponents:

"It is especially good for stabbing unaware enemies"
"Short Blades are more effective at any other weapon type at stabbing helpless foes"
"Assassins are all about stealth, ready to stab unaware opponents"
"Spriggans make highly competent stabbers and spellcasters."
"Vampires are accomplished stabbers and casters."
Two options: stab_brand and may_stab_brand

I don't think any of those would be improved by using the phrase "critical hit".

For this message the author neil has received thanks:
duvessa

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8782

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Tuesday, 3rd June 2014, 16:25

Re: Stabbing extension

tasonir wrote:Renaming stabbing to critical hitting doesn't increase damage variation. It does, however, drastically increase bikeshedding on the forums. XuaXua only suggested a rename, not a new mechanic.
XuaXua wrote:If stabbing reform happens, which might be a good idea, it should be renamed something equivalent to "critical hit" and applicable to all weapons, but allow different weapon styles to have different bonuses.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 502

Joined: Wednesday, 7th March 2012, 13:25

Location: Lexington, KY, US

Post Tuesday, 3rd June 2014, 19:29

Re: Stabbing extension

duvessa wrote:
tasonir wrote:Renaming stabbing to critical hitting doesn't increase damage variation. It does, however, drastically increase bikeshedding on the forums. XuaXua only suggested a rename, not a new mechanic.
XuaXua wrote:If stabbing reform happens, which might be a good idea, it should be renamed something equivalent to "critical hit" and applicable to all weapons, but allow different weapon styles to have different bonuses.


Isn't that the current mechanic?

For this message the author neil has received thanks:
XuaXua
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Tuesday, 3rd June 2014, 19:42

Re: Stabbing extension

neil wrote:
duvessa changed what XuaXua wrote:If stabbing reform happens, which might be a good idea, it should be renamed something equivalent to "critical hit" and applicable to all weapons, but allow different weapon styles to have different bonuses.


Isn't that the current mechanic?


pretty much.
Last edited by XuaXua on Tuesday, 3rd June 2014, 19:43, edited 2 times in total.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

For this message the author XuaXua has received thanks:
scorpionwarrior

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5333

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 3rd June 2014, 19:42

Re: Stabbing extension

Awww man, I was about go all super nested quotes on duvessa, but yeah, that is exactly what we have now. Perhaps duvessa said it best:

duvessa wrote: imo having all four of "dagger stabby", "other short blade stabby", "long blade stabby", "axes stabby", plus the useless club confusion thing, is pretty pointless

For this message the author tasonir has received thanks:
XuaXua

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8782

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Tuesday, 3rd June 2014, 21:16

Re: Stabbing extension

Well I figured he meant "different bonuses" more complex than each weapon being either useless for stabbing, or not useless for stabbing
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Tuesday, 3rd June 2014, 21:25

Re: Stabbing extension

Perhaps add in a "less useless for stabbing" bonus.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 508

Joined: Tuesday, 1st November 2011, 00:36

Post Wednesday, 4th June 2014, 13:24

Re: Stabbing extension

I can see the argument for renaming "stabbing", if it's meant to be something that blunt or edged weapons can do to some degree. Also that would prevent the current situation where some pretty random seeming weapons get a bonus for flavour reasons.

Also with the removal of the "Stabbing" skill I don't think it's that obvious what a "stabber" character does. Generally "stabbing" is just the act of driving a point into something, it doesn't necessarily imply sneak-attacks.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Wednesday, 4th June 2014, 13:27

Re: Stabbing extension

If you do want to rename it how about "ambush" - or just "sneak attack"?

For this message the author Jeremiah has received thanks:
XuaXua

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5333

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Wednesday, 4th June 2014, 20:00

Re: Stabbing extension

+1 for ambush! Apologies if this counts as bikeshedding, but I can't just thank his post because he also mentioned sneak attack, and I just want to support Ambush. Everyone else is welcome to thank me for this post though. :twisted:

For this message the author tasonir has received thanks:
XuaXua

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 15 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.