Level generators

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 08:45 by duvessa

I don't have high hopes for a discussion of this on Tavern but it's a convenient place to put this.

There doesn't seem to be much attention given to how dungeon layouts affect gameplay, which as a shame as they are pretty important to it. The recently added Zot generator seems to be motivated entirely by aesthetics - most of the levels created play almost identically to each other due to its obsession with open space. I'd like to go over the existing level generators and discuss the problematic ones.

layout_forbidden_donut:

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This layout makes that really big open square and puts another square of walls inside. Often it makes a passage through the small square, as it does in this example. (The walls are also frayed a bit in this one, which seldom does anything.) As you would expect this layout is pretty much the same every time except for whether or not it makes the passage through the small square. Not good. I think this layout should have a much lower weight, like 2 or 3, maybe even 1.

layout_cross:

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Makes a small cross, as in the first example, and then 75% of the time uses spotty_map to turn it into something like the second or third (boxy) example (50% chance of boxy). I don't like the ones like the second example, it's overly similar to layout_big_octagon, and I'm about to single out layout_big_octagon as the worst one in the game. However, I actually like the non-spotty cross layout. The layout itself has very little variation, but compared to forbidden_donut and big_octagon, it has dramatically less area, no loops, and is much less frequent because of that 75% chance. The lesser frequency alleviates the fixity of this kind of layout, and the low area makes it much more interesting and less tiring to play. The version with glass and lava/water is really awkward, though, because of lava/water monsters.
However, when it hits the 75% chance of spotty_map it doesn't work very well in my opinion. This transformation greatly increases the area of the level, taking away its most interesting feature. It's much worse for the non-boxy one (second example) but I don't think the boxy one is an improvement either. I'd get rid of the non-boxy one entirely, maybe keep the boxy transformation on 50% or 25% of levels. This should be accompanied by a decrease in weight to 2 or 3, since you don't want to greatly increase the number of real cross levels, just remove the bad ones.

layout_big_octagon:

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I'm giving you a whole bunch of examples of this layout so that you can see for yourself that it's THE SAME EVERY TIME. Different number/size pillars, different edge lengths, occasionally the edges are frayed, and that's the extent of the variety in this layout. This is about as variable as a regular vault, so I propose treating it like one: get rid of the allow_dup tag and give it weight 1. It will still place more often than most vaults.

(cont'd)

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 08:46 by duvessa

layout_rooms:

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One of my favourite level generators, good at producing varying and interesting terrain. Only change I might make to layout_rooms is increasing the weight.

layout_city:

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#.................######.................o#####+##...............# #.................#....#..................#......#....##+#######.# #.................+.>..#..................#......#....#........#.# #.................#....#............../...#......#....#........#.# #.................#....+..................#......#....#........#.# #.................#....#..........[.......+......#....#........#.# #.................#....#..................#......+....#........#.# #.................#....#..................#......#....#........#.# #.................######..................#......#....#........#.# #.........................................#......#....#........+.# #.........................................###+####....####+#####.# #.............................................>..................# #................................................................# #...........................................#######..............# #...........................................#.....#..............# #...........................................+.....#....#######...# #..########.................................#.....#....#.....#...# #..#......#.....########......#####.........#.....+....#.....#...# #..#......#.....#......#......#...#.........#.....#....#.....#...# #..#......#.....#......#......#...#.........#.....#....#.....#...# #..+......#.....#......+......+...#.......<.#######....#.....#...# #..#......#.....#......#......#+###....................#.....#...# #..########.....######+#...............................#####+#...# #................................................................# #................................................................# ##################################################################

Another excessively open layout, way too much fixity. I propose 1. increasing the number of rooms, 2. allowing them to overlap each other, destroying walls that don't contact the "outside", 3. allowing them to overlap with the edge of the map. This allows non-rectangular buildings that might actually block something.

layout_misc:

Code:: ##### ##...# ##### #....# ##...### #....## #....#.###### ##### ##### #.....#### #...........# #...# ##### #...####.......# ###.........# #...# #...# #...#..........# ##########........######...###...###...#......#...# #......# #...................................###### #......###...?.......########...#######......# #...........####........# #...# ###.......# ####....@.#...# #.........############...###...# #....######...# #..._........# #.....##..### #########.#### ##.####......###...### ###.#..##..## #...##....# #....#......###.....###.....##..## #......#### ######....###..<....................## #......# #....#....# ####.#...#...##.#...##### #......# #....#...### #.#...######.#...# ##......# ##....#.....# ##......####..#...# ##### ###.......#######....#......####.......##........####...# #......................................#...#######......# ##########...####...##....###......####....#######......## #....# #######...# #............................# ##...### #...# 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Another good generator, maybe not as good as layout_rooms but close.

layout_caves:

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Good in Orc and Slime, but a similar situation to octagon etc. in the main dungeon; all the open space makes it very samey. I'd lower the weight to 3-5, at least.

(cont'd)

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 08:46 by duvessa

layout_twisted_cavern:

Code:: ####### ############# ########### #.....# #.....##....# ###....#....# #.....####.....##....# ###......#....# ####...###........#...#####............## ###.#....#......#........##.......#......# #.......##......##......###.....####...### ##.......#....#..#.....###.....#####.....### ####......###...#####...###.......# ##.......)## #..#...######....# #....###.....#####....#$....## #.......#...##...###....#.....######.....##.....## #...........##.....#..###.....# #......######....# ##...#.....####....####.....#####.....## ##...### #....#......###.....#.......# #.....## #.@...### #...###.#.>...###.........######...### ##......# #.....###.....###.......###...#....# #......## ##....#####....####...###.........## ####....### #......# ##...##.....#...........# #.<....# ###....###.....#....##.....#...### ###....## ##.....#.........##....####### #.....# #.....####.....##....## ###...# ###.....##....##.....# #....# #.....###.###....### ##...## ###.....###.<...## ##....# #.....###....## 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#### ###### #....# ##### ###....# ##...### #.....## ##......# ##.....# ###.......### #....### #.....#.....# #...### ##....###....### #.....# #....## #......# #.....## #...### ###....## ###....### #.....### ##....## #......# ##......# #.....### ###....## ###.......######.....# #.....# #.....#.....# ##....### ###...### #....##.....### #......# ##......# #...#####.....# ###....### ##.......## #.....#.##....### #......### ##....#....# ##.......#......# ###......# #.....##...## ##........###....######.....## #...####....######....#......#...##...####....## #.....###....#...#...####....#####......##.....### ####....# ##...........# ##...###........####.....### #..##...## ##.........## #....#......#....####......### #...#....# ##...#...## #...##.....###...##..........# #...##...# ######### #####....####....##....#.....## #...#....# ##.....## ##...##.....###....### #...#...## ##.....#####.....##..### ##.....### #...#.<..# #......# #...?....###### ##......# #..<##...## #...######.@..#....#...## ##....>## #....#....# #...>.###.....#>........### ###....## #...###...# #.......#...#####.........# ##....# #....#....# ###.....##$.# #......#....## ##...### ##...#...## ###....######....####....### #.....# ##### #........# ##### ##...## #.....# #......# ##....## ##...## #.......## ##...### ##### #....# ###..### ###....### ##....# ###.<...### #..#...#####......###...## ##...###.#### ##.....## ##...###.........## ####....##.........#.....## #.....#..# ##.....## #....#.....#.....## ##....#....#...........# ##.......# ##.....# ##.........#......# ##.......####.....#...## ##......# ###...#####.....#######...# ##.....## #....##....# ###...## #.....####...## ##.....# ######.....## ########...### ##### ##......###..# ##.....## #..#.....### #.....# ##.......#### #.....## #........# ##....## ###.....### ##...### #......### #.....### ###>....# ##....# #....### ###.....## #.....###.....# #..### #......## ###....#....### #### ###.....### #.........# ###.....### ###.....### ##......# ##...## #......## ##### ####....# ##..## #### ##### ###...### ####.......# ###### #..........### #....### ##......#.....### ###......# #.....###.......####........# ###...### ###.....##......#...# #......### ###....#.....##...# ###.....<..# ####........###....# #.....#....###..###......##....## ##....##.....##...###...###....## #.....####...#....# ######....## #...#####....#...#### ###.....#### ######..####....##......###.....###..# #....#####......###.....#.......#....# ##......###....####.....##.....###....# ##### #..>....#.....##..#...###....###......# ###...### ##...#...#.....#.......##.....###....### #.......# #....#.......###......###...####.....# ##.......### ###...###.....## ###....<.#....###...### #....#.....## #.....# ##...## ###....##.....#....# ##...##......## ##...## ##### ##....##....#...## ###....####.....# ##..# #.....#.........## ###.....## ###...## #### ####...###........### #......## #....# #.......###...#.....# ##.....## ###...# #.......# #####.....# ###....### #.....# ##...#### ###...# ####.....## ###....## ##......##### ##....# #..#.....# ##......# #.......#...## #.....# #......### ##.....### ###...#........###...### #.....### #.....## ##.....##.....>...#.....# #.......## ####...### ##.....####...#....##....# #..#.....# #......# ###.....## #####.....##...# #####...## ##.....## #.....### ###........# ##### #......# ##.....# #........# ###...#### ##### #....### ###....### #.......# ##...### ##>..## ###### ##.......### ##@.....# #....# ##....#.....# #....@..### ##...## #.....##....## ###...#.....# ##....# ##...####.....# #.....#.....#### #....## ###....# ###...####.?..####......# ##...## #.....## #.....#.....## #......## ##....# ##.....# #....##.....# ###.....# ##....## #....### ######....### ###...## ##....## ####...## ###...#...## #....# ##....## #..#...## ###.........# ##...## #....## #.......### #..........## #....###...## #.........###.....#...## ##...##....# #....#.....#....####### #....#...## #..####.........# ##.......# #### ###.....### #......## ##...## ###...## #.....# ##### #.....# #######

A relatively new layout, it makes a long path with occasional forks to dead ends. Seems to be designed to take as long to play as possible, and plays the same every time in addition to that. Should not be weight 10, at least.

layout_roguey:

Code:: ########### #.........# ######### #.........# ######### ############## #.......# #.........# #.......# #............# ####.......# #.........# #.......#### #............# #..........# #.........### #.......+..####............# #.#+#......# ###...........####.......##....+............# #.+∩+......#####...........#....+.......#######............# ###+#...>..+.....#.........######.......# #............# #........#######.........# #.......# #............# ##.......# #.........# #.......# #............# #.......# #.........# #.......# #####+######## ###+##### ####.###### ######+## #.### ###.# #.## #####..# #...# #...# #..## #.....## ###.# #.### ##..# #.##### #####+#### ####+####### #####.## ###.########## #........# #..........# #......# #............# #........# #..........# #......######............# #...$....# #..........# #..........##............# #...:....# #..........# #......###.##............# #........# #..........# #......# #..#............#### #........# #..........# #......# ##.................# #....[...# #..........# ####......# ###............##.###........# #..........# ##.........# #............##..##........# #..>.......####..##......# #............###..#........# #..........+....#######.## #######.###### ##.+....@...# #..........###### ##...# #<..# ###>.......# #..........# #..### ###.# ###.###### ########+##### #.## #.## ###..###### #.....# ##.# #..# #...#.....# ###########+## #..# ##.# #.#.#.#.### #............# ##.######## ########.### #.#.#.#...# #............####.........######..........# #.#.#.###.# #............##................#..........# #.#.#.#...# #............##.#.........####............# #.###.#.#.# #............##.#.........# ###..........### #.#...#.#.# #............#..#.........# #.....>......# #.#.###.### #............+.##.........# #..........#.###.....#<..# #............####.........# #..........#..######.###.# #..<.........# #.........# #..........##......#...#.# ############## ########### ################.#######.# #.........# ########### ############ ######### #############..........# #.......# #..........##..........# ########## #.......# #..........##..........# #........# #.......# #...........#..........##### #........# #.......# #......................+...###........#######.......# #..........#...........###..##........#.....+<......# #...>......##..........# ##..+........+.#####.......# ########.######+######## ####........### #.......# #####...# #....# ######+### #####+### #.....### ####+###### #.# #.## #.##### #........# #.# #..## ####+####### #........# #.# ##..# #..........#######........# ########+## #########+### #..........+....##........# #.........######...........# #..........####.##........####.........+...##...........# #..........# #..+........+..+.........###..+...........# #..........# ####........####.........# ####...........# #..........# #........# #####+##### ##########+## #..........# ######+### #..# #.# ##+######### #.### ##.## #.# #.##### #...# #..# ##.# #.....# ########+## #####.####### #..# #####.# #.........# #.#.....#...# #.## ######+####### #.........# #.#.###.#.#.# #<# #..>.........#####.........### #.#.#...#.#.# #.# #............##..+.........+.###.#.#.###.### #.# #............+..##.........#..##...#.......# ###.# #........>..<#####.........##....#########.# #...# #............# ##+############.#.........# ##.### ##########+### #.# #.###.#####.# #..# ####..# #.# #.....#.....# ##.## #....## #.# ####.######## #..# ######+#### #.# ###...##### #.## #........# #.# #.........# #####+##### #........# #.# #.........# #.....#...# #........# #.# ##########.........# #.#.#.###.# #........# #####.####....@...+.........###...#.#...# #........# #..........########.........+.#####.#.### #........######.###.###### #.........#.#...#.#..># #........+......# #.# ##+########.+.#.#.###.# #........######## #.# #.## ###.#.......# ######+### #.# #..# #####+##### #..# #.## ##.#### #....# #.## #..# #....## ####.# #.# #####.######## ####..# #.# #####+#### ###............###########+## ######.###### #........# #..............##...........######...........# #........# ##.#.........................+...##...........# #........####..#.............#...........###..#...........# #........+....##............##...........# ##.............# #........#######............############## ###...........# ########## #............# ############# ############## ############ ############# #..........# ##############...........# #.<........########.......:................# #..........+........############.@.......>.# #..........########## #...........# #..........# #...........# #..........# #...........# #..........# #...........# #..........# #.....5.c...# ####+####### #...........# #.## #...........# #..# ############# ##### ##.# ##≈≈≈## #.# ############### #≈≈≈≈≈######### ###+##########.............# #≈≈∩..........####...........##.............# #≈≈≈≈≈...>....#..+...........##.............# ##≈≈≈.........#.##...........##.............# ####.........+.##...........##.............# #.........####...........#..............# #.........# #...........#..............# #.........# #..........................# #.........# #...........##.............# #######+### #...........##.............# #.>.# ####+##############.######## #.### #.## #..# #.# #..# ###+####### ########+## #####+##### ###.......<.# #.........# #.........######.+.........# #.........### #.........##.....#.........# #.........+.# #.........#..#####.........# #.........#.# #.........#.## #.........# #.........#.## #.........+.# #.........# #.........#..# #.........### #.........# #.........##.####.........# #.........# #.........##....+.........# #.........# ######+##########.........# #.........# #..# #.........# #####+##### #.## ##+######## #..# #####+##### #..# ######+###### #.#.......# ##.# #...#.......# #.#.#####.# ##+###### #.###.#.#<### #...#.....# #####.......# #...#.#.#...# #.######### #...+.......#### #.#.#.#.###.# #.....#...####.###.......+..####.#...#>..#.# #####.###.#....# #.......##....+.#######.#.# #...#.#...#.#### #.......#######.....#.#.#.# #.###.#.#.+.# #.......# #####.#.#.#.# #.......#.### ######### #.......#...# ########### #############

Makes a connected grid of rooms, like Rogue. Works surprisingly well but I might lower the weight from 20 to 10-15.

layout_basic:

Code:: ### #.#### #.##.# #.##.# #....# ######.##.# #......##.### #######.#######.#.# ### ###### ####### #....##.# #.#.#### #.####....# #.....# #....##.# #......# #..##...#.# #.....###....##.#######...##.########### #..##...#.# #............##.##.....................# #.......#.############# #########....##.##.#..#......######.#### ###.....................# ##.####.##.#.........# #.######## #.............#########.# #.# #.#............######.##.....# #############.# #.# #.# #.######.......#....#.....##.# #....#.# #.# #.# #.#......#####.###..##....##.# #.##.#.# #####.# #.# #.....##..................<..# #.##.#.#####.....# #.# #.....#######..#.#......#....# #...............## ####### #.# #.....#######....#####.#####.# #######..####.##.# #.....# #.# #..............#.....#.##....# #....##..####.##.#######.###.# #.# #.....Z........#.###.#.##.#### #.............##.......#.# #.# #.# #......................##.# #....#.#####...........### #.# #.# #.....#####.#..#######....# ####.#.#####.###.......# #.# #.# #$.@....###.#...>..# #.#### #.#.......# #.......#####.######.########..........##..# #.# #....###### #.......#..............>.# #....##.##.##..###.# ####.# #.......#.###.######.###.# #....##.#..........# #.# #.......#............# #.#######.##.##.##..###.# #.# #########.......###### #.........##.#......# #.# #.# #...#.#.# ############.##..#..# #.# #.# #.....#.# #.##..#..# #.# #.# #######.# #.##..#..###.# #.# #......# ##.#..........# #.# #.###### #......######## #.# #.# ####...# #####.####### #.# #...### #......##...## #.##### #.....# #......#.....# #.....### ### #...#.# #......#.....# ######....# #.# #######.### #####.##.....# #....##.#.###.# #.........# ####..#.....# #....##.#.....# #.######### #.##..#.###.# #....##...#.#.# #.# #.##..#...#.# #....##.###.#.# ###.###### #.....#.###.# #....#........# #......#.###### #.....#.#...# #.......###.### #.#.##.#....>.# #.......#.#.# ######......# ####.#.......###.# ###..##...#.#### #..##### #....####.#..###.# #............# #..# ######.###.....#....#.# ##....######.# ###.#### #......###.#..##....#.# #######.....# #......# #.###..#..............# #.######### ######.# #..............##.....# #####.##......# #.# ###....#.#...........### #.....##.###.## #.# ###.##.#.............# #.###.##.#.#.# ###.# #....#....#.##...### #.# ####.#.#.# #...# #########........# #.######.#...#########.#### #..........###.#.### #........#.....<..........# #.########.#.......# #.######################### ####..#######.######..# #.# #.....#.......######..# #.# #####.#.########......# ### #....# #.#.##.# #...## #.#....# #.#.# #.####.# ###.# #.# #.# ### ### ### ##### #...# #.#.# #.#.# ### ###.#.## #.# ##### #......# #####.# #...# #......# #########@#.#.# #.#.######...##.# #######...........#.########## ####+#..........##.# #.....>...........+..........# #......#####.......# #.................#.#####....# #......# #....##.# #.................#.......#.## #......#####....##.# #.................#.#####.#.# ### ####+#..........##.############## #.......#####+#.###.##....#.# #.# #......###......##..............#####.##..#####.#.# #.##..#.#.# #.# ##...................#..###.......# #........##.#.# #.##..#.#.# #.# #.......###.#.#..##..#.......####.####.......###.#.# #.##......# #.# #.#####>...........................................###.##..#.#.# #.# #.## #.###.#....##......#...#......#......###.............#.#.# #.###..# #.# #.###..##..................#..#..# #.###.##..#...#.#.# #......####.# #.# #..##.##...#...#.#....#......###.#.#.##..#...#.#.# #...<...##..###.# #..##.##...#.........................#.......#...# ###.####..##..#.#+###..##.##...#.#.#.#....#......#.#.#.#.#...##..###.## #...####..##.......##............#.#.................#................# #..........................#..........................................# #..........#...................###...#...#.......................###### ######.≈...#........#..##..#...............##.#..###..#..####.##.# ####.≈≈...........#..##..#.........##.##.##.#..# #..#.......##.# #....≈≈.....#.#..........#.##.##.#.##.##.##.#..# #..#..#######.# #.##.≈≈.....................................#..# #..#..#######.## #.##........#..##.#......................####.## #..##.#........# #........#........#..##..#.##.####.#####.# #.# #..............# #..#........#..#..............####.# #.# #.# #........####..# ####..................................# #.# #.# #####..........# #..........#........##..##..#.##..###.# ### #.# #.#..#####.# ####.......#...#..............##..# #.# #.# #.#..# #.# #..#..###...##^#.##.###..####..###.# #.# #.#..#####.# #..................................# #.# #........#.# ####..............####.###..####.####+######## #.# #.#..###.### #........#.....#######.####.####.# #.........# #.# #........# #.####...........................# #.........# #.# #.#.####.# #.####...#.....#######.###...###.# #.........# #.# #.#.####.# #....#...#.....# #.......+.#.# ##+##....####+### #.#......# ####.#...#.....# #####...#.#.# ####....# #....# #.######## #.#...#.....######## #...#+#+#######....# #....# #.# #..................####..................###....######.# ###..###.##..............................+.+....+.....># #..# #.#########.#####+#........≈......###....######## ####..###.................#...............# #....# #.............#####.#####.#..≈≈....≈......# #....# #####.#######.# ###.##....+......≈≈...##### ###### #......##.###.....###.#...........# #.#######.......### #.#...........# #<# #######.# #.............# ### #.# ############### #.# #.# #.# #.# ### ### ######.# #♣......# ############ #..####.# ##..........# ♣∩♣# #.# #.........#.# #..# #.# ########## #..######.#.# ############♣.# #.# #........# #..# ##.#.###.............####.##############.######.# #..# #>.....+........................................# #..# #..#.###........###...###.##########.###.#####..# #..# #..#.# #........# #...# #.......# #.# #.# #..# #..#####..#.# #.....≈..###...#########.# #.# #.# #..# #..#...#..#.###........##....+.......#.# #.###.#####..# #..+...+..#............##....#######.#.####>...........# ##.#...#..####.....######..........#.#.#...............# ##...........+.....+.......####....#.#.#.##.#########.## #.........####.....######........###.#...##.# #.# #.##...#..# #.....# #........+...######.###### #.# #.##...#..########### #........######..........# #.# #.##...#..#.........# #........# #.###.####.# #.# #.###+##..#.#######.# ########+## #.# #.# #.# #.# #.# #.##..#.# #.# #........# #.# #.# #.# #.# #.# #.##..#.# #.# #........# #.# #.# #.# #.# #.# #.....#.# #.# #........# #.# #.# #.# #.# #.#####...#.# #.# ########.#######+###.# #.# #.# #.........#.# #.###########.##........#.# #.# #.# #######...#.# #.#.........#.##.....≈..#.# #.####.#### #.....# #.#.#######.#.##.....≈..#.# #.........# #...### #.#.# #.#.##...≈≈≈..#.# ######.##.# #...# ####.#.#######.#.##.≈≈≈≈≈..#.# #.##.# #####...######....#.#.....#.#.##..≈≈≈...#.# #.##.# #............+....#.#.###.#.#.##........#.# #.##.# #.......######...##.#.#<#.#.#.##........#.#########.##.########## #......######....##.#.#.#.#.#...............#...................# ##+#.........#....##.#.#.#.#.#..########.#.#.#.#####.##.########.# #.....#...........+....................................># #.# #.........<#.#....##.#.#...#.#...........#.#.#.#####.#### #.# #......#####.#.#+###.#.#####.##.####.#####+#.#.# #.# #.# #............#.#.# #.#.......##.#.##.# #.....#.# #.# #.# #..............#.# #.##########.#.##.# #.....#.# #.# #.# #.....##########.# #.................# #.....#.# #.# #.# #.....# #......# ############.########.....#.# #.# #.# #.....# #......# #.......................# #.# #.# ##+#### #......# #.######.###.....############.###########.# #.# #......# #.#....#...+.....+........................# #.########......# #.#........#.....###.....####.############# #...............# #.####.###.#.....###......#............# #.#########.....# #........#.#..............#.#........#.# ### #.....# ##########.#.############.#.#.##.....#.# ####### #.#...# #.#..........#.# #.###.# #.#.#....#.#.#.# #.# #.# #.#.#....#.#.#.# #.# #.# #.#.#....#.#.#.# #.# #.# #.#..........#.# #.# #.# #.#......#.###.# #.# #.# #.#.#........#.# #.# #.##########.#.##########.##### #.# #..........#.#................# #.############.#.###########.####.# #.................#@......o.....#.# #.############.##################.# #.# #.......................# ### #.##.#################### #....# #.##.# ######

Another excellent generator, might be my favourite.

layout_chaotic_city:

Code:: ############################################################### #.............................................................# #.....................#######........................######...# #...>.................# #........................# #...# #.....................# #............##########..# #...# #....###########......# #............# #..# #...# #....# #......# #...######...# #..######...# #....# #......# #...#....#...# #...........# #....# #......# #...+....#...# #...........# #....# #......# #...#....#...# #...........# #....# #......# #...#....#...# #...........# #....# #......# #...#....#...# #...#####..<# #....# #......# #...#....#...# #...# #...# #....# #......#######...#....#...# #...# #...# #....###########................+....#...# #...# #...# #...............................#....#...# #...# #...# #...............................#....#...##########...# #...# #...............................###+##................# #...# #.....##############..##+#####..........#####.........#####...# #.....# #..#......#..######..# #.................# #.....# #..#......+..# #..# #.................# #.....# #..#......#..# #..# #.................# #.....# #..#......#..# #..# #.###########.....# #.....# #..#......#..# #..# #.#.........#.....# #.....# #..#......#..# #..# #.#.........#.....# #.....# #..######+#..# #..#####.#.........#.....# #.....# #............# #........#.........#.....# #.....##############............######........#.........#.....# #.............................................#.........#.....# #.......................>.....###########.....#.........#.....# #.............................# #.....#.........#.....# #............<##########...>..# #.....######+####.....# #.............# #......# #.....................# #.............# #......# #.....................# #..##########.# #......# #............######...# #..# #.# #......# #.....#####..#....#...# #..# #.##########......# #.....# #..#....#...# #..# #.................###########.....# #..#....#...# #..# #........##+###...................# #..#....#...# #<.# #........#....#...................# #..#....#...# #..# #........#....#.........####......#####..####+#...# #..# #........#....#.........#..#......................# #..# #........#....#...####..#..#....#########.........# #..##########........#....#...# #..#..#....# #........># #....................#....#...# #..#..+....# #.........# #....................#....#...# #..#..#....#########.........# #.......############.#....#...# #..#..#......................# #.......# #.#....#...# #..####..########..#####+#...# #.......# #.#....#...####........# #..#.....#...# #.......# #.######............@..# #..#.....#...# #.......############......................########..#######...# #.........................................y?..................# ############################################################### #################### #..................# ##### #.##############...# ########...# #.# #...# #..........# #.# #...# #.#.#.#.#..## #.# #...########### ##...........# #######.# #...#.........# #..#.#.#.#.#.## #.......####### #...#########.########### #.............# #.#####.......# #...# #............# #..#.#.#.#.#.## #.# ######### #...# #...#####....# #..........#.# #.# #...# #...# #....# #..#.#.#.#.#.######.####### ##########...# #...# #....# #..........#......#.#.....#####........#...# #...# ###....# #..<.##############.#####.......########...# #...###......# ##...# #.# #......## #...# #...#........# #...# #.# #......# #...# #...#.#.#....# #...# ####.# ###......# ###...# #...#........# #...###########....# #........# #.....# #.....#.#....# #................### #........# #.....# #.........##.# #..########......#####........#######.....# #.......####.# #..# #................................# ###.......# #.# #..# #.#######.####...........#######.######.........# #.# #..# #.## ##.# #...........# #......#.#...#...####.# #..# #..#####..# #..########.# 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#>....................................#######.......#......#..# #.########.......##########.....#####.+.....#...<...#......#..# #.# #.......# #.....# #.#.....#.......#......+..# #.# #..####.# #.....# #.#######.......#......#..# #.# #..#..#.# #.....# #.>.............#......#..# #.# #..#..#.# #.....# #...............#......#..# #.# #..#..#.# #.....# #...............#......#..# #.# #..#..#.# #.....#####...............########..# #.# #..#..#.# #...................................# #.# #..#..#.# #....########....#++#######.........# #.# #..#..#.##########....# #....#........#.........# #.# #..#..#...............# #....#........#.........# #.# #..+..#.####..#######.# #....#........#.........# #.# #..#..#.+..#..# #.# #....#..>.....#.........# #.########..#..#.#..#..# #.# #....#+########.........# #...........####.#..#..# #.# #.......<...............# #<...............####..#######.########.......................# #.............................................................# #.............................................................# ###############################################################

Basically like layout_city except there are more buildings and some of them are closed. Better than layout_city, and I would suggest making the same changes. Also, it will sometimes cut a big chunk out of the middle for no reason, which I would suggest getting rid of.

(cont'd)

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 08:47 by duvessa

layout_layer_cave:

Code:: ### #.# ### ### #.# ##.# #.# #.###.## ### ##.# ##### #..##.# #.### ##..# ##### #...####....## #@..####..## ###...## ##..........## ###.......# ###..###.## ##### #...........### ##.....#### #...## ##.# ##### #...#### ##............## ###......### #...# #.# ##...# ##.....## ##............# #........# ##..## ### ##..### #.####.## ##..########..## ##..####..# ###.## #.# ##..## ### #..# ##..## ##..#######..## ##.# ##.###.# ##.### ##.# ###..## #..........## ##.# ##....# ##.## ##.####...## ##...###.### ##..# #....# ##.## ##...##..####### ##### ### ##..## ##...###.## ##.......####...### ##### ##..## #......## #........###......####...## ##..############## ####......# #.............###.........## #..####..........###.........# ### ##...........## ##.........## #..##........................# ##.# ###..........## #...####...##### #............................########..# #..#.........# #..###.........####..................##..................# #####...##...# ####...............................######.....>.........## ##.###..## #...............................## ##.....##.####### ######## ##..........................>....# #####....##....# ######.....# #...............................#####.......##.....## #..........## #..............................####.......####......# #.#######...# #.............................####.######## #......<## ### ##..########............................####.## #........# ### ##......................................###.## #........# #.## ##.............................>.............# ##........# ##.#####......#######...>................##..###...## #.......<.# ##.##..####..## #.......................## ####### #.........# #....## ##..# #......................## #...### ###.........# ##....# ##.## #.......................## #.....## #...........# #.....# #..## #..................####..## ##.##...# #...........# #.#...# ##..####...................####..###.####.## #..#.......## #.....# ##..##.......##............####..#..# #.# #..#.......## ##...## ###........................####...## #.# ##..#.......## ##### #.....######..............# #...## #.# ##..#...##..## #.....# #..............###....## #.# ##..######..# ##.....# #...............#......###.# ##..## ##.## #......## #.................####.....# ##..## ##.## #.......# #................## ##...## #...# ##.# #.......# #.................# ##### ########...# ### #....#..# ###.................### ##...##...### ###### #.......# #.....................## ##......#### ##....## #.....### #......................### ##..###### #### #......## #...<## #........................## ##..## ##..# #.#.....## ##..## ##........................###..## #########...# #........## ##..## ###..........................## ##.........### ##........# #...# ##.........###............## ##....####### #.........# #..## #.....####.###...........## ###..######### ##........## #..## ##...## ##.###...........###...## ##....## #.........# #...## 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#.........####..###.........###.## #.#.............# ##.....### #..## ##.........##..####.............# #####......>....# ##........## ##..# ###.............###..............### ###.........#####....##....#####...####..............##..................# ###................####..................#............................## ###.............## ##...............######...................#...### #.............#######...#####....### ##...........#######...## ##..##............###..## #...## #...........## #...## #### #..###...<............# ##..# ##...##.....## ##..## #..### ##..###............<..## #..## ##...###....## ##..## ##...######....##....######.....# #...# ##...## ##..## ##...# ###....##.....##...## ###...# ##..#####...## #...## ##...## ###.............## ##..# #.....#....# ##...####...## ### ##............# #..## ##.........## #.........## #.## ##..........## #...# ##....##.....## ##........# #..## ##..........## #...######...#######...## ##.........# ##..## ##....#.....# ##...........## ##...####..........## #...#####...####....## ###............## ##...##............# ##..........# ##....## ##......######...# #...........##....## ### ###.........## ##....####......## ##..## ##...........##....# ##.# #.#........## ##....#........# #...## ##..........###...## ##..# ##.#....>..# ##...........## ##...## ##..........####...#####..## ##.......## #...........# ##....### ##............####....#...## #.......# ###.........## #.......####...............#.........# ##......# ####...........# #...................................## #.....## ####.............># #............##......................## ##.....#####.......####.....## ##....#.....#####......................# #..##..##.......#### ###..@### #.....##...## ##...................### ######.......#### ##....### ##.....##...# ##.................## ##....### #.......#####......##...# ##...............## #...## #...##.....##......#...## ##.........##...# #...## #..#####................## ##.......#####.## ##....## ##..# ####..............### ###.......## ##...# ### #......# #..## ###..............####.........####....# #.# #......## #..# #......###......#............##.....####.# #..#....# ##..# #......#####........##........#......##..# ##...#...## #..## #.......# ##.....#####.......#......##.## ##....###..## #..# #...#...#####....## ###............#..# ##......###..# #.## #..###..........## ##...........#.## #####..###...###.## ##.# #..# #.........## ###....>......# #.##.### ###..###.## #.## #.####.#######.# ##..........# ##..## ##.####.## ##.# #.# #.## #.# ##.......### #### ####..#.# #..# ### ### ### ####....# ###### #### ######

Overall I like this generator. Seems a bit too inclined to make wide open areas and dead ends (which combine really badly), but the rest is good.

layout_cave_shapes:

Code:: ### #####.### ##### #..#..#.###...###### ####...##..#......##.# #.......#........###.## ##..#..........#..##..# ###.............#.....## #..#..................# ### ##.#.............##...####.# #......#........##....#...####### ###..............#.......#.......# ##.......................#.....##### #.##..................#..........#.# ####..................#...........## ##.......................#........# #........................#.......## #................................# ##...............................# ### ### ##................#+#..........## ##.####.# ####................+∩+....#...### #.......#####.##................#+#.##.##..# #..........###................(....###.##### #..#........##<....................####.# ##.##................................# ### #..#............................###.## #.#......................#..##..# ### ###.....................###@##### #...................#### ### ###.............##.## ##............##### ####.........###.# 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##.###........##....## ###..# #...## ##.......................# #.######.............#....## #### #...# ####...................## #........................## #...# ###..................# ##....................###.# ##...# ###..................## #....................# ### ##....# ####.......###...........## ##...................# ###.....# #..........# #............## #...................## ####....##.# #######...## ##............## ##................##..# #.......##.# ##....## #.####........####................###### #..........# ####......# ### ##........##.........##.....## #..........##########.........# #........##........######### #...........##...##...........# #........##.......## #.............................# #.................# #.............................# #................## #............................## ##.........#.....# #......##..................### ##.......####..## ##...######..............### ##......# #### ##.## ##.............# ##.....## #### ##.## ##..$.........## ######.......# ###..# #...# #.............# #............## ###....# ###.# #...@.........# ##............####.....## ### ####..........# ##........<...##......# ###........###### ##..................## ##............### ##.................## ###............##### ##..........##.....# ##...............# ##.........####....# #..............## #.........># #....## ##.............## ##.........## ###...# ### ##..............## ##..........# ###.# #.# #................###...........# ### ##.# ###..........................### #..##### #...........#####.........## #......# #### #.........### ##........# ##### #......###..## ##### #####.........# #...###### ##...### #............## ###...### #.##..........# ##...# ##......###.............# #.......# ##.............## #....## ###.......................# #.......# #...............## #.....# #.........................# #.......# ##...............## #.....# #..................#......# #.......# #................## #.....## ##................##...#### #.......# #.................###......## #................##.### #......## ####.................##........#### ##...............#.## #.......# #.................................# ##.....>.......#### ##......# ##................................## #...........### #......# #.................................## #..........## ##.....#### ##...................##.............####..........# ##..##...####...................####..........................# ########......................## #############...#..........# #.......###...........## ######...#####.#### #......## ########..### ##### ##...# #......# ##.## #.### #.....## #.## ### ####### ###

...It is really rare for this generator to not mimic an existing layout, but I guess it doesn't really do much harm even if it tends towards the bad layouts (octagon).

layout_waterfall:

Code:: ### ##### ### ##### ### ### #.# #.#.#### ### ### #.# #.#.# #.#### #.# #.# #.#.##.# #.#### #.# #.# #.#.## ##.##.# #.# #.# #....#.# ##.##.# #.# #.# #....# #.....# #.# #.# #......# #.....# #.# #.# #....# #.....# #.# ##.# ####......## #.....# #.# ##.# ####....# ##....###.# #..# #.##.......# ##....###.# #..# #.##....# #.....#..# #..# #.##.......# #.....#..# #..# #.##....# #.......## #..## #..#.......# #.......## #..## #..#....# #........# #...# #..........# #........# #...# #.......# #........# #...# #..........# #....<...# #...# #.......# #........# #...# #..........# #........# #...# #.......# #...#....# #...# #..........# #...#....# #...# #....$..# ##..##...# #...# #..........## ##..##...# #...# #.J.....# #..####.# #...# #...........# #..####.# #...# #.).....# #..# #.# #...# ###.........# #..# #.# #...# ###.....# #..# #.# #...# ####.........## #..# #.# #...# ####.....# #..# #.# #...# #.##..........# #..# #.# #...# #.##.....# #..# #.# #>..# #.###.........# #..# #.# #...# #.###...@# 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##..............## #.>..........### #............### ##..........## ##..........## ##........## ##........## ###....### ###....### ###### ###### ##### ### ### ### ##.#.### #.## ### ##### ### #.# ### #.###......# #..# #.# ### #.#.## #.# ###.# #.# ####..........## ##..# #.# #.###....# #.# #.#.# #.# #.#............# #...# ##.# #.##.....# #.# #...# #.# #.#......#...#.#### ##..#### #.## #.##.....# #.# #...# ####.# #.......##...#.##.# #..##.# #.# ##.......# #.# ##...# #.##.# ##.....####...#..#.# #.###.# ###.# #...#..####.# #....## #.##.# ###.....## #..##..#@# #.# #.# #...# #...#..# #..# #.#...# #.##.# #...###.# #..###...# ##.# #.# #..## #...#..###.#####.#.#.# #.##.# #...# #.# #..# #...# ##..# #.# #..# ##...##.##..#.##..#.#.## #.##.# #...# #.# #..# ##..# ###...###.# #..# #....##.#..##.##.###.#.# #.##.# ##...# #.# ##.# #..## ##....#.##.# #..# #....##...###.#..# #.#.# #..#.# #....# #.# #.# #...###....##.##.# #.## #.#..##...# ##..## #.### #..#.###....# #.# #.# #.........###..#.# #.# #.#..##..## #..# #.# #..#.##.....# ### #.# #.......### ##...# #.# #.#..##.## #.## #.# #..#.##.....# ### #.# #.......# #...# #.# #.#..##.# #.# #.# #..#..#.....# #.# ##.# #..#....# #..## ##.# #.#...#.# #.# #.# ##..........# #.# ##..# #..####.# ##.# #..## #.#...#.# #.# #.# #..........# #.###...# #.## ##.# #.####...# ##.#...#.# #.# #.# #..##......# #.......# #.## #..# ##.##..#.# #.##...#.# #.# #.# #..##......# #.......# #..# #.## #.#...#.# #.##...#.# #.# #.# ##.###......# #.......####..###.# #....##.## #.##...#.# #.# #.# #..# #......# #........##....##.# #....##..###.##...#.# #.# #.# ###.## #......# #.....##.#.....##.# #...####.##..##.....# #.# #.# #..## #......## #...####.#..#...#.# #..## #..#..##.....# #.# #.# #### #.......# #.### #....#.....# #.## #..#..##.....# #.# #.# #.......# #.# #...###....# #.# ##...###.....## #.# #.# #.......###.# ##.## #...## #.# #...# #......# #.# #.# #..###...##.# ##.# ##..# #.# ##..# #...#..# #.# #.# #..# #....#.# #..# ##.# #.# #..# #..###.## #.# #.# #..# ##.....# #..# #.# #.# ##.###..# #..# #.# #.# #..# #.....# #..# #.## #.# #.##..## ##.## #.# #.# ##.# #.....# #.## #..# #.# #.#...# #..# #.# #.# #.# ##....# #.# #..# #.# #....## #..###.# #.## #.# #....# #.# ##.# #.# #....# ##..##.## #..# #.# #....# #.# #.# #.# ##..## #...#..# #..# #.# ##...# #.# #.# #.# ##..## ##.....# #..# #### #.## #...# #.# #.# ##.# #....## ##....####..## #..## #..# #...# ##.# #.## #..## ##.....## ##............# ##..### #..# ##..## #..# #..# ##...# #.......#####...........#.# #....###..## ##...# #..# #..# ###....## ##....................####.## ##.........####....# #..# #..####.......# #..##................## #..# #.................####..# #.........##..## ##..###...............# #..# #...................##..# #........###...###..## ###........#....# #..# #......................## ##.......## ##...#...# ##########...## ##.# #......................# ##.....#### #......## #...# #.# ##.....................## ###...#### ##....## ##...# #.# #......................####.....# ##...# #....# #.# ##.............................## #...## #...## #.# ##...........................## #....# #...# #.# ###........................## #....# #...# ### ##.....................### ##....## ##..## ##...................## #......## #...# ##..................# #.......# ##...# ##.................# #.......## #...## #.................## ##........### ###...# ##...............>.# #...........######....## ##................## ##.....................# #### ###...............## ##.......>.............## #..### ##...............############.....................## ##...### ####.................##.........................## #...>.#### #####........................................## ##.......#########..............<...........................### #........................................................### ##...........................<..##########...........##### ###........................##### ############# ########################## ### ################# ####.# #.#..##..#.#.#..# ### ### ### #>##.# #.#...#..#.#....# #.# #.###.## #..#.# #...............###.# #..##..# #....# #................##.# #......# #....# #................##.# #......# #....# #...............###.# #......# ##...# ##..............# #.# #......# #...# #..............# #.# #.#..#.# ###.# #..............# #.# #.####.# #.# #..............# #.# ##.# #.# #.# #..............# #.# #..# #.# #.# #..............# #.# #..# #.# #.# #..............# #.# #..# #.# #.# #..............# #.# #..# #.# #.# #..............# #.# #.## #.# #.## #.............## #.# #.# #.# ##.# #.............# #.# #.# #.# #.# #.............# #.# #.# #.# #.# #.............# #.###.# #.# #.# #.............# #.##..# #.# #.# #.............# #.##..# #.# #.# #.............# #..#..# #.# #.# #.>...........# #..#.## #.# #.# #............## #....# #.# #.## #............# #....# #.# #..# #............# #..>.# #.# #..# #............# #....# #.# ##.# ##...........# #....# #.# #.# #...........# #...## #.# #.# #..........## #...# #.# #.## #..........# ##..# #.# #..# #..........# ##..# #.# #..# ##.........## #..## ##.# #..###..........# #..# #..# ##..##..........# #..# #..# #..##..........# #<.# #..# #..............# ##..# #..# #..............# #..## #..# #..............## #..# #..# ##..............# #$.# #..# #..............# ##..# #..# #.......>......# #...# #..# ##.............# ##...# #..# #.............###.$@.# #..# #....................# #..# #...................## #..# #...................# #..# #...................# #..# #...................# #..# #..................## #..# #..<...............# #..# #..................# #..# #.................## ##..# #................## #...# #...............## #...## #..............## #....# #..............# #....# #..............# ##....# #..............# #.....# #..............# #.....## #..............# ##......# ##..............## ##.......## #................#### ###.........# #...................####...........### #................................<...# ####................................## ####............................## ####.......................### #########################

I don't think I've ever seen this in the main dungeon but it looks like it can generate there. I find the axis bias really awkward, and don't like how much of it is open space.

(cont'd)

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 08:47 by duvessa

layout_cave_pods:

Code:: ##.....## #.......## ### ######## ##........### #######.# #############......## #...........## #....#..#####...................##### #............# ##...#..............................# #...........## #.....................####.........## ##........### #........###..........# #..........# #.#....#### ##..###### ##.........# ##..........## ##.###### ##.## #.........# #............# #.## ##..# ##### ##.......## #............## ##.# ##..### #...## ###.....# ##.............### #.## #.....###....### ###...# #...>............### ##.# #..............## ##### #..............#...## #.## #...............##########..............###..### ##.# ##......................................#####..### #.## #.......................................# ###..### ##.# ##########.............................## ###..####.## #######.....................### ###..#..## #####................## ##.....### ########......#...........## ###.....### ##.........#####..##.....### #.......### ####......##### ##..#....## ##........## ######.........## ##....### #.........## #...............## ####.<.# ##.........## #....#...........# ##..##..# #.#........# #.################ ##......## #.##.......## #..# #...@....## ##.##.......# ##.# #.........# #.########.# ### #.## ######### #.........# ##########..# ### ##.# #..######.......# #.........## #...........## ##>.# ##..............# ##.........# #............## ##..## #....<.........# #......*..### #.............## ##...## ##.............# ##..........### ###............## #.....# #...........### ###......##..#### ####..........# ##.....# #.##......### ###...#####...### ###........###......# ##.###..### ### #..### ##.#...#### ####..............# #.###### ####.## ##.## ###...##....### #...............# #..# ####.....###.## ##.......###...##########......###......# ##.# ###........##..# ##..........###..................###.....# #.## ##..........#..## #............####................###...#.## #..# ##.............## #............## ##................###.....# ##.# #.............## #.............# #.................#...#### #.###....<........# #.............## #....................## ##.#.............## #..............# ##..................## #.#............## #..............## #.................## #......>......## #...............# #................## ##............# ##...............# ##...............# #########.#.........## #................## #..###..........## #..................## #.................# #### #.#.........### #.................## #................## #.............## #....####.........# ##........>.....## #..............### #....# ##...#.....### ##............## ##................# #....###...####.....## ##.........### #.................# #.....##...# ##.....### ##.......## ###.................## #.....##...# #.......### ##....### ###...............###..# ##....##..## #.........### ###### ##...#...........### #### ##..##...# ####..........### ###..####..######### #####...# #...............### ##....# #..## #...# ##.................####### ###.....# ##..# ##..## #........................#######.......# ##.###### #...# #.............#####.............#......# ###......#### #...# ##............# ##.......####..#......# #...........#### #...# ##...........# #.........# #......#### #..............# ##### #####......## ##.......## ######## ####.......##### ######## ###....## ######### ###.## ###

I have no opinion at all on this generator

layout_cave_town:

Code:: ### ###### ##### ##.### ############ ##....#######...###....#####..........################## ##......................##..............##...#.....#....## #........................................................## ##........................######..........................# #......................###.##.####....#####..............## ##.....................#.........#....#.#.#######.........# ##..........##+#.......#........##....#.........#.........# #..........##..#.......#........#.....#........##........### ##..........#...#......##........+#....#........#...........# #....<......##..#......#..........#....#........+...........# #............####......#.........##....#........#..........## #......................#+#######.#.....#...######..........# ##.........>...................###.....#####...............## #..........................................................# #.....<..................................................### #.........>...................................#####......## ##.............................................#...#.......## #........####..<..........########.............#...#........# #......#+#..####..........#..##..###...........##.+#.......## #......#.......#..........#........#............###.......## ##.....#......##.........##........##......................# #.....#......#..........#..........#.................g....# #....##......#..........##........##......................# #....#.......#..........#..........#.....###+##...........# #....##......#..........#.........##.....#....#...........# ##....#.......#..........+.........#......#....#..........## ##.....##+#.#.##..........#.........#......##..+#.........## #.........#+###...........##........#.......####..........## #..........................#........#...................@..## ####.......................#.######.#..............K........# ##.......................###....#+#.......................# #.........................................................# ##........................#+##..............###............# ##........................##..##............##.########....## #........................##....#>...........#.........+...## ##..........#+#####......#....##...........##.........##..## ##..........#.#+..##.....#....#............#...........#...# #...........+......#.....#....#............##..........#...# #..#........#.....##.....##...+............##.........##...## ####........#.#.###......#....#............#..........##....# ##.........#+###........#+##.#............##..........#....# #.....###..................###............#...........#....# #.....+.###...............................#..........##..### #.....#...#...............................#..........#...## #.....#...#...............................##########.#....## ##.....#+#+#........................................###.....# #...........................................................# #.............>............................................## ####....######.......#.....#..........#####................# #...## ##.##...###.###...........# #..#..########..## #..## #####.## ### ##.########## ####### #### #### ### ### #### ### ### ### ### ### #..# #### ####.### ### #.## #.## #.### #.# #.## #..####......#####.## #..## #..## #...## ##.## ##.## ##............##....## #...# ##...## #....####...# ##...## #...................## ###...# #.....## ##...........# #.....## #....................####.....# #......###............## ##......####...........................#.# #......................# ##.....................................##.# #.............###++###.## #......................................##.# ##............#......#..###......................................##.# ##...........#......#..#.###+####...............................##.# ##..........#......#..#........#................................#.# ##.........#......#..#........#.....#############......#........## ##....C.....#......#..#........#.....#...........#.......##.....## ###......@....#......#..#.<......#.....#...........#.......##.....# #.............######.#..#........#.....#...........#..............# #..................###..####+#####.....#...###.....#..............## ####..$................................#.#+#.#+#...#...............# ##...................#..............#.#.....##..#...............## ##...!.............####............#.#......#..#................# #.................###.............#.########..#................# ##................###..............#...........#...............## #..................................#>..........+..............## ####...#.............................##...........#.######.......# #.#.......................<..........#............#.#....#.......# ##...................................##...........#.##...+.......# #....................................##.####.#####.##...#.......### #...............##.......#######......###..###..>>.#....#.........# #..............#####.....#.....#.....##............##...#......#### ##..............# #....##.....#....####............#...#.........# ##.........###..## #....#......#......##......#.....#+#.#........## #.#....#####.#..# #....#......#............#####.....###.......## #####.##.....#..# #....##.....#............# ##..............# ###......#..### ##.....#.....#............## ##..............# ###.....#....###......#.....#..##.........####...............# ##.#.....#.............#.....#..###...........................# #..#####+#.............+.....#.## ##................#####.....# ##......................###+###.# ##...............#...#.....## ##...##..........................######...............+...#......# ##...####..............................................#...#...#### #...## ##.#########......####.........................#...+#.## ##..## ##.#.......#......# ##........................#....### #...######..+.......#.....## ##......<.......###......####### #.#....##...#.......#.....# ##..............####..........# ####........#.......#.....# #..............## ##.........# ##.......#.......#.....## ##..............## #.........### ##......###+..###......# #.....###.......# #...........#### ##........####........## ##...## ###.....###..............# #.....................# #...# ###....##.......#......# #.....................########..## ##............######.# ##.............................## ##..>..###...# ##.# #....^.........######.........# ##..### ##..# ##..# #...###.......## ##..###...## ##..# #..# ##...# ##### ##.#....# #.## #.##.# #.#.# ##.# #.#### ######## ### ###### ##### ### ###

Similar to chaotic_city, everything I said there applies here.

layout_geoelf_grid:

Code:: ##### ###...### #### ###.......### ########### ##### ###..# #...........# #.........# #...# ###..>.# #.8...∩...8.# #.........# #...# ###......###...........#####.........# #...# ###.....8..+.+...........+...+.........# ###+# #....8.....###...........#####.........# #.# ###.....8..# #...........# #.∩.......# #.# ##+.......# #.....>.....## #.........# #.# ##.#+##....# ##+...8...##+## #.........# #.# ##.##.####..###.###...#####.###.........# #.# ##.###.# #####.## ##### ##.############ #.# ##.## #.# ##.## ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## ##.## #.# ##.## ###+#####.## ##.## #.# ##.## ##.....##.## ##.#### ##+###.## ##.......+## ##+#.## ##>..#+## #.........# #### ##...## #.....######.........# #..### #.....# #.....+....+....8....#########....### ##...## #.....######.........+.......+<.....# #..## ##..∩## #.........#########....### #+## #+### ##+.......+## #...#+## #.# #.# ##.##.....##.## ###+##.## #.# #.# ##.#######+###.## #.###.## #.# #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ###+###.## #####+#######.#####+### ##.## #.# #.....+## #.........# ##.##.....## ##<###+# ##.....## #.........# ##+.......# ##+#..# #.......# ##.<.....#######.......# ##...## #.......# #.......+.....+.......# #.....# #.......# ##.....########.......# ##...## ##.....## #.....# #.......# ##.## #.....# ##+...+## ##.....+## #+# #####+# ##.#...#.## ##+####.## #.# #.# ##.###.###.## #.# ##.## #.# #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# #.# ##.## ### ##.## #.# ##.## #.# #.# ##.## ##.## #.# ##.###.# #.# ##.## ##.####+### ##.##.# ##+####.## ##+#.....## ##.#.# ##...##>## ##.......## ##+.##### ##.....+## #.........# ##.....## #.......# ####### #.........# ##.......## #.......######.....########.......∩.######.........# #...@...+....+.....+......+.........+....+.........# ##.....########...#########.........######....8....# ##...## #...# ##.......## #.........# ##### ##.## ##.....## #.........# #.# ####### ##.......## ### ##.....## ####### ##### #### #...# ######### #..### ###...### #.......# #....### ####### #.......########..⌠.⌠..# #......### ##.....## #.......+......+......#########........# ##.......## #.......########+.....+.......+......### #.........# #+#...### ##.##...##########.....## #.........# #.#...# ##.###...+## #..##+# #.........# #.##### ##.## ##.##.## #####.# #.........# #.# ##.## #.###.## #.# #.........# #.# ##.## ### ##.## #.# ##.......## #.# ##.## ##.## #.# ##.....#+## #.# ##.## ##.## #.# ###+####.## #.# ##.## ##.## #.# #.# ##.## #.# ##.## ##.## #.# #.# ##.## #.# ##.## ##.## #.# #.# ##.## ###+###.## ##.## #.# #.# ##.## ##...##.## ##.###+### #.# ##.###.....+## ##+.....## #.# ##+#.#.....## #.......# ###+###########.∩.......# ############.......# #.....+.......+#.#.♣....# ###...+......+.......# ###.....#########.........# #.....########.......# #.........# ##.......## #.....# #.......# #.........# ##.....+## #.....# ##.....## #.........# ##...##.## #..<..# ##+#### #.........# ##+#+####.## #.....# ##.## #.........# ##.##.# ##.## ###+### ##.## ###.....### ##.###.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.....# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## ####+## ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# ##.## ####### #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.###.## ##.....## #.###.## #.# ##.## #.##.## ##.......## #+##+## #.# ##.#####+#+## ##.........## ##...## ##+#### ##.##.....## #...........# ##.....## ##.....## ##+.......#######....>....<.# ##.......## ##.......## ##..........+...+...........# #.........# #.........# #...........#####...........# #.........######.........##########...........# #.......>...# #.........+....+.........+........+...........# ##.........## ##.......#######.........##########...........# ##+.......## #......## #.........# #...........# ##.##.....## #+#...## ##.......## ##.........## ##.#####+### #.##### ##.....#+## ##.......## ##.## #.# #.# ########.## ##.....## ##.## #.# #.# ##.## #+##### ##.## #.# #.# ##.## #.# ##.## #.# #.# ##.## ####+## ##.## #.# #.# ##.## ##.....####.## #.# ##+## ##### ##.###e......##.## ##+## #...# ###...### ##+#.........+## #...# #...# #.......# ##...........# ###...### #...############.......#########...........##########.......# #####.......+......+.......+.......+...........+........+.......# #...........########.......#########...........##########.......# #...........# #.......# #.....@.....# ###...### #.......>...# ###...### ##.........## #...# #####...##### ##### ##.......## ##### #...# ##.....## #...# ####### #...# #####

Fairly unique generator, no complaints. Same for all these other elf layouts.

layout_big_grid:

Code:: ############################################################### #.............................................................# #.............................................................# #.............................................................# #.............................................................# #.............................................................# #.............................................................# #.....###############################.........................# #.....# #...................>.....# #.....# #........#########........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #....>...# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #....<# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #...>.# #........# #........# #.....# #........# #........# #.....###############################........# #........# #............................................#########........# #..................................................@..........# #.............................................................# #..................................................$..........# #.............................................................# #.............................................................# #.................<...........................................# #.............................................................# #.............................................................# ############################################################### ########## ########## #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #.....<..# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........#########........############## #########################......................................# #..............................................................# #..............................................................# #..............................................................# #..............................................................# #..............................................................# #..............................................................# #..............................................................# #.................>..............##########........############# #########################.......<# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #......o.# #........# #....o...# #........# #..o.....# #........# #........# #........# #.....o..# #........# #........# #........# #....>.@.# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #........# #.....>..# #........# #........# ########## ########## ######### ######### #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #################.......# #.......# #.......................# #.......# #.......................# #.......# #.......................# #.......############################ #.......................# #..................................# #.....................>.# #................................@.# #.......................# #...............................H..# #.......................# #..................................# #################.......# #......................>...........# #.......# #..................................# #.......# #.............>....................# #.......# #.......############################ #.......# #.......# #.......#################.......# #...............................# #...............................# #...............................# #################...............................# #...............................................# #...............................................# #...............................................# #.......................#################.......# #.......................# #.......# #.......................# #.......# #.......................# #.......# #################.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......#################.......# #...............................# #...............................# #...............................# #...............................# #................<..............# #...............................# #.........................>.....# #.......#################...<..<# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# #.......# ######### ######### ############################################################ #..........................%...............................# #.>.....................................<..................# #....................................!...Z.................# #................................@.........................# #.......................................<..................# #.......................<.$.........$......................# #......##############################################......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #.>....# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #.>....# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......# #......##############################################......# #..........................................................# #..........................................................# #..........................................................# #.................................................>........# #..........................................................# #..........................................................# ############################################################

Seems to turn into either layout_cross or layout_forbidden_donut. Doesn't seem worth having in that state.

layout_small_grid is fine though.

(cont'd)

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 08:48 by duvessa

layout_long_grid:

Code:: ################################################################# #...............................................................# #.....###..####..######......##..........##............##.......# #.....# #..# #..# #..###.##...#####..##..##........##.#####.# #.....# #..# #..# #..# #.##...# #..##..##........##.# #.# #.....# #..# #..# #..# #.##...# #..##..##........##.# #.# #.....# #..# #..# #..# #.##...# #..##..##........##.# #.# #.....# #..# #..# #..# #.##...# #..##..##........##.# #.# #.....# #..# #..# #..# #.##...# #..##..##........##.# #.# #.....# #..# #..# #..# #.##...# #......##........##.# #.# #.....# #..# #..# #..# #......#####...............>##.# #.# #.....# #..# #..# #..# #...........................##.# #.# #.....# #..# #..# #..# #.....######.......#........##.#####.# #.....# #..# #..# #..# #.....# #.......#...##...##.......# #.....# #..# #..# #..# #.....# #.......#...##............# #.....# #..# #..######..###.....# #.......#...##.......####.# #.....# #..# #.<................# #.......#...##...##..# #.# #.....###..####..................# #.......#...##...##..# #.# #.#...................>..........# #.......#...##...##..# #.# #.#..............................######...........##...##..# #.# #.#...............................................##...##..# #.# #.#...####..####.............................###..##...##..# #.# #.#...# #..# #.............................# #..##...##..# #.# #.#...# #..# #...........<.....#####.......# #..##...##..# #.# #.#...# #..# #.................# #.......# #..##...##..# #.# #.#...# #..# #.............###.# #.......# #..##.......# #.# #.#...# #..# #.............# #.# #.......# #......###..# #.# #.#...# #..# #.............# #.# #.......# #......# #..# #.# #.#...# #..# #.............# #.# #.......# #.###..# #..# #.# #.#...# #..# #.............# #.# #.......# #.# #..# #..# #.# #.#...# #..# #.............# #.# #.......# #.# #..# #..# #.# #.#...# #..# #.............###.#####.......# #.# #..# #..####.# #.#...# #..# #.............................# #.# #..# #.......# #.#...# #..# #..................#####......# #.# #..# #.......# #.#...####..# #..................# #......###.# #..# #..###..# #.#.........# #..#####.......##..# #..........# #..# #..# #..# #....####...####..# #.......##..# #.........@# #..# #..# #..# #....# #.........# #.......##..# #.####..../###..# #..# #..# #....# #.........# #.......##..# #.# #..........# #..# #..# #....# #.........# #.......##..# #.# #..........###..# #..# #....# #...###...# #..###..##..# #.# #...............# #..# #....# #...# #...# #..# #..##..# #.# #.....###.......# #..# #....# #...# #...# #..# #..##..# #.# #.....# #.......# #..# #..>.# #...# #...# #..# #..##..# #.# #.....# #.......# #..# #....# #...# #...# #..# #..##..# #.# #.....# #.......###..# #....# #...# #...#####..# #......# #.# #.....# #............# #....####...# #..........# #.###..# #.# #.....# #............# #...........###..........# #.# #..# #.# #.....# #......####..# #................######..###.# #..# #.# #.....# #......# #..# #....####........# #......# #..#####.####.....# #......# #..# #....# #........# #......# #.................###......# #..# #....# #........# #......# #..........................# #..# #....# #........# #.####.# #..................###.....# #..# #....# #........# #.# #.# #.............##...# #..##.# #..# #....# #........# #.# #.# #.............##...# #..##.# #..# #....# #........# #.# #.# #.............##...# #..##.# #..# #....# #........# #.# #.# #.............##...# #..##.# #..# #....# #........# #.# #.# #.............##...# #..##.# #..# #....# #........# #.# #.# #.............##...# #..##.# #..# #....# #........# #.####.###.............##...###..##.####..# #....####........######......................##.................# #...............................................................# #################################################################

I mention this one because it does axis bias much better than that waterfall one.

layout_hall_layers, layout_onion:

Code:: ############# #...........# #...........# #...........# #...........# #...........# #...........# ######################...........###################### #.....................................................# #.....................................................# #........................<............................# #.....................................................# #.....................................................# #.....................................................# #......################.........################......# #......# #.........# #......# #......# #.........# #......# #......# #.........# #......# #......# #.........# #......# #......# ##.......## #......# #......# #.......# #......# #......# #.......# #......# #......# #.......# #......# #......# #.......# #.>....# #......# #.......# #......# #......# #.......# #......# #......# ##.....## #......# ##### #......# #.....# #......# ###### #...#########......# ####.....#### #......#########....# #..................###### #...........# ######...................# #.......................######## #...........# ########........................# #..............................###...........###...............................# #..............................................................................# #..............................................................................# #..............................................................................# #..............................................................................# #.......................>......................................................# #..............................###...........###...............................# #.......................##########...........# ########........................# #..................###### #............# ######...................# #...#########......# #.........#### #......#########....# ##### #......# #..∩......# #......# ###### #......# #.........## #......# #......# #..........# #......# #......# ####.......# #......# #......# #.......# #......# #......# #.......# #......# #......# #.......# #......# #......# #.......# #......# #......# ##.......## #......# #......# #.........# #......# #>.....# #.........# #......# #......# #.........# #......# #......# #.........# #......# #......################.........################......# #.....................................................# #......<..............................................# #.....C...............................................# #.....................................................# #...........@.........................................# #.....................................................# ######################...........###################### #...........# #...........# #...........# #...........# #...........# #...........# ####...........# #..#...........# ##### #..............# #...# ### #..............###..## ##.## #..............##...# ### #...# ##.............##...# ##.## #...## #.............##..## #...# ##...# #............##...# ##...# ##..## ###............#..## #...## #### #...###.................### ##..## ##..## ##..#.....................###...# ### #....## ###.....###.........###........## ##.## ##....####.....### #.........# ###.....## ##...# ###...##....### #.........# ###....## ##....# ##.......## #.........# ##....###....## ### ##....### #.........# ###...#...### #.### ##...## ##.......## ##.....## ##...## #...## #.......# ##...## #.....####...# #.......# #...## ##### ###.....#...## ##.......## ##...# ###...## ###......## ##.........## ##..###......# ###....# ##...........## #.........### ##..## ##.............## ##......### #...# ##...##.....##...## #...#### ###### ###### #..## ##...###...>.###...## ##..# ##### #....#####....####..# ##...## #.....# ##...## #..#############...# #...................###### ##...## #.....# ##...## ######...#..............# #........................####...## #...>.# ##...####.......................# #...............................#######...#######..............................# #.................................<..##...##...................................# #..............................................................................# #..............................................................................# #..............................................................................# #....................................##...##...................................# #................r..............#######...#######..............................# #........................####...## #.....# ##...####.......................# #...............#.T.###### ##...## #.....# ##...## ######..................# #....#############..# ##...## #.....# ##...## #..####....#####...# ###### #..## ##...###.....###...## ##..# ###### ##### ####...# ##...##....<##...## #...# ###......## ##.............## ##..## ###....%@...# ##...........## #....### #......###..## ##.........## ##......### ##...### #...## ##.......## ##...#.....### ##### ##...# #.......# #...####.....# ##...## #.......# ##...# ##...## ##.....## ##.......## ##...## ###.# ###...#...### #.........# ###....## ### ##....###....## #.........# ##.......## #....## ##....### #.....>...# ###....##...### #...## ##.....### #.........# ###.....####....## ##.## ##........###.........###.....### ##....# ### #...###.....................#..## ##..## ##..## ###.................###...# #### ##...# ##..#............### ##..## #...## #...##............# #...## #...# ##..##.............# ##...# ##.## #...##.............## #...# ### #...##..............# ##.## ##..###..............# ### #...# #..............# ##### #...........#..# #...........#### #...........# #...........# #...........# ############# #......## #...........# #....####......# #.......## #...........## ##.....###......# #........## #............##### ##..............## ###.......## ###............#.###...............# ###......## ##....>........#.................## #.......## ###.........#.......................# ####.....### #..........##.......................# ##......## #......#...##....#..................## #.##....## ###.....##.........#..........#........## ####.....###........#.............##...............## #......##........................................# ###..............................................## ##...................##..##..#...##.............## ### ####### #####...............#######.####.##..............################## ##.###.....###.###........###....# ### ##............................##...# #..##...........#.........###....# #................⌠.⌠..............# #..........................#....## #...##............∩...............# #.....#.........................## #.####........#..⌠.⌠..............# #................................# #...##............................# #................................# ##...#............................# #................................# #................................# #................................# ##.................##............# #................................# ##................................# #..#.............................# #..........................#...#### #.###.......................###..# #..###..##.##.........####.#...# ### ######...........######## ##.## #### #####..#.........## ####### ##...........# ##.## ####.....#..........## #..........## ##.# ####....####............# #...........# ### ###....#### ##..........## ##...........# #..##### #..........# #...........## #### ##..........# ####..<......# #...........## ##.......## #............# ##.......# ##### ### #...........## ####........# ####...# #.## #...........# #...........####....### ##.## ###.........## #................#### ##.## ##..........# ##### ####...............### ### ##.###########...........####### ### #...####.............#.#....####.# ##..#..##.##............#.....###.# #....##...##...#.................# #.........###..........)#.........# #.....>....#...#.................# ###.......# #...................$.# #..............................### ### ###...#...# #.................%...# #.........................#....# #.# #......#..###.....................# #.........................#....# ##.# #..........#......................# #.............#...........##...### #..# ##...........................@....# #............##..................# #..# #................................# #............#.........#.........# #..# ##......................h.........# #....##......#.........##........###.## #.................###......#......# #....##..###.....<.....##.......###..#########.................###.##..##...#### ########## ######..............###.....#...#....................############# ##.............###..............................# ##........#....................................#### #........#.......................###.....##....#.## ###.....###......................##...######......#### #.#..........#.....................## ##........# ###.................................## ##.......### #............................#......# ###.......# ##...........................###....# ##.....##### ##.................................# ##.....##.## ##.........#......#..#..##..........# ##........### #................#########..........# ##.........# #.............#### #...........# ##........# #.............# ##.......>..# ##.......# #.............## ##.........## ##......# #..............# #...........# ##.....# #.............## #...........# ##....# ############### ############# ###### ################################################################### #.................................................................# #.....<...........................................................# #..##############...............................################..# #..# #..............................## #..# #..# #############.............................############### #..# #..# #.......................................................# #..# #..# #.......................................................# #..# #..# #.......................................................# #..# #..# #........>....############.........#############........# #..# #..# #..............## #........## ##.........# #..# #..# #...............##########........############..........# #..# #..# #.......................................................# #..# #..# #.........................<.............................# #..# #..# #...#.......#########################...................# #..# #..# #...##.......# #....................# #..# #..# #...###......#######################....................# #..# #..# #...# #.................................................# #..# #..# #...# #.................................................# #..# #..# #...# #.............................................#...# #..# #..# #...# #..................#################.........##...# #..# #..# #...# #..................# ##........###...# #..# #..# #...# #..................################.........# #...# #..# #..# #...# #................................#..........# #...# #..# #..# #...# #...........................................# #...# #..# #..# #...# #..............#####...####.................# #...# #..# #..# #...###...............## #...# #....#.............# #...# #..# #..# #....##.......?........####..###...##.............# #...# #..# #..# #...........=...........♣.........###.............# #...# #..# #..# #..............#....#.............# #.............# #...# #..# #..# #..............###..###♣∩♣........###........###..###...# #..# #..# #..............# #..# #...#####...#..........# #........# #..# #>.# #..............# #..###.♣.# #..............# #........# #..# #..# #..............# #........# #..............# #........###..# #..# #.......M....@.# #........# #...###........# #.............# #..###..........#...# #....#...#####...# #........# #.............# #........###..###...# #..###...........###..###...# #.............# #........# #..# #...# #..# #.............#..# #...# #.............# #....>...# #..# #...# #..###................# #...# #.............# #........# #..# #...# #..##...###..####.....# #...# #..##.........# #........# #..# #...# #..#....# #...# ##....# #...# #..###........# #........# #..# #...# #......####...#####...# #...# #..# #........# #........# #..# #...# #.....................# #...# #..# #........# #........# #..# #...# #.....................# #...# #..# #........# #........# #..# #...###.............######### #...# #..# #........# #........###..# #...##..............# #...# #..# #........# #........##...# #...#...............###########...# #..# #........# #........#....# #.................................# #..# #........# #.............# #.................................# #..# #........# #.............# #.................8.8.8...........# #..# #........# #.............# ############.......⌠.⌠........##### #..###........# #.............# #.......8.∩.8........## #...##........# #...>.........#############........⌠.⌠..........#####....#........# #.................................8.8.8...........................# #.................................................................# #...............############........##########....................# #..............## ##........# ##...................# #.............#############.........############..................# #.................................................................# #........<........................................................# #.................................................................# #................####################################.............# #...............## #.............# #...............######################################............# #.................................................................# #.................................................................# ################################################################### ### ##.## ##...## ##.....## ##.......## ##.........## ##...........## ##.............## ##..>.#..........## ##..........#......## ##....#.∩.#..##......## ##............###......## ##........#....# ##......## ##..............## ##......## ##................## ##......## ##..................## ##......## ##....................## ##......## ##......................## ##..<...## ##.................#......## ##......## ##.................###......## ##......## ##.................## #.......####..>....## ##......##.<.......## #........##.........## ##......####..._....# ###..................>.## ##......## ##........###.......................## ##......## ##..........#.......#.................## ##......## ##...................##.................## ##......## ##......#............####.................## ##......## ##......###...........#####.................## ##......## ##......## ##...........##....................## ##......## ##.......####...................................## ##......## ##................................................## ##......#####..................................................## ##...........................................###..............⌠.⌠## #...........................................## ##..............∩..# ##.........................................## ##..............⌠.⌠## ##.................#####.................## ##......#####......## ##.................## ##.................###......## ##......## ##.................#####........................## ##......## ##.................##.........................## ##......## ##...............................#..........## ##......## ##.....................#.......###........## ##......## ##....................##.....## ##......## ##......## ##..................####.....###......## ##......## ##.................## #.....##......## ##......## ##.........>.......###.............####......## ##.........##......##..............##......## ##.......####......#......[..............## ##......## ##..........................## ##......## ##........................## ##......## ##......................## ##......## ##.............?..@...## ##......## ##.............C....## ##......## ##.......O........## ##......## ##..............## ##......## #.............## ##......###............## ##......##...........## ##......#..........## ##...............## ##.............## ##.....<.....## ##.........## ##.......## ##.....## ##...## ##.## ###

These are the Zot ones I was complaining about. These generators seem really committed to making lots of open space, and that increases fixity.

layout_loops_misc:

Code:: ########### #.........# ######.###.###.################# #......# #.# #.#...............# #.####.###.# #.#.##.##.#######.# #.# #.....# #.#.##.##.## #.# #.# ####### #..........# #.# #.# #...##.##..# #.#### #.# #...##.##..# #....# #.##### ####..........# ####.# #.....# #..<.......##.# #.# ################.# #.###.#..#.##.# ##.########## ####................#####.# #.#..#.##.# #.....#.....# #.........########........# #.#..#.##.########.###.#.###.# #.##.####.# #.....##### #.#..#......T......# #.#.# #.# #.##.# #.# #.....#######................(.###...# #.# #.##.####.# #................####.#####@##.....#####.# #.##....#.# #.....#########.## #.###....#.....##....# #.#####.#.# ####.....# #.# #.....#..C.#.#.##.#### #.# #.#.# #......### #.# #####.............# #.# #.#.# #.##...# #.# #...%....o#####.#.# #.# #.#.# #.##...# #.#####.###.....# #.#.# ###.#####.#.####.##...# #.........#..##.# #.#.# #................##...# #######.#.#..##.# #.#.# #.#######.#########...# #....<.##.#####.#.# #.# #.# #...# ###.##.##....<..#.# #.# #.# #...# #.##.####.###.#.# #.#######.# #...# #.##.###..####..# #.........#########...# #...........##..# #..########...........# ################.....##........# #............#.......## #....................###..##.### #.....#####..#.#####.# #.#############....⌠.⌠#.....## ##.....####...#># #.# #.#.................∩.#.#.### #.........#.#.#.# #.# #.#.#########......⌠.⌠#.#.## #.........#.#.#.# #.# #.#.# #...>...###....## #...............# #.# #.#.# #.#....## #.....### ##.#...#.#####..# #.# #.#.# ##### #.#....# #.......# #.#...#.# #..#####.# #.#.# #...# #.#.##.# #.....#.# #.#...#.# #........# #.#.###.#.# #.#.##.# #....##.# #.##.##.# #..#####.# #....##.#.# #.#.##.####.#####.# #>##....#####..# #.# ###..##.#.# #.#...>...#.# #.# #.............######.## #..##.#.# #.#.#####.#.# #.# ##########............# #..##.#.###.#.# #.#.# #.# ##.....####..######...........#.# #.#.# #.# #..............................# #.#.# #.# #.._..#.##.#####.##.####..####.#####.#.# ##.## #.....#.##.# #.##.# #..####.......#.####...# #.......##.# #.##.# #..............#.......# ##########.#####.##.# ##............###.##...# #.......##.###########.#####.#.####### ##########.............# ##.## ############### ### ################# ##...............# ##...##.#########.# ##### #.....#.....# #.# #...######...##.###.# #.# #...............# #.# #.# ######...#########.### #.# #.# #......#.# #.# #.# #.# #.####...# #.#####.#####.# #############.# ##### #.............# #..........##.# #######.####### #.########.##.# #.# #.# #.##.# ######.############# #.# #.##.# #..................# ##.########.##.# #.####.###########.######### #........##.##.# #.# #.# #.........# #..#####.##.##.# #.# #.# #########.# #..# #.......#################.# #.######## #.# #..#####.......>...............#.# #........# #.# #...........##################.#.# ########.# #.# #.#######.### #.#.# #.# #.# #.# #.# #.#.# #.# #.# #.# #.# #.#.# #.# #.# #.# #.### #.#.######## #.# #.# #.# #...# ##########..........# #.# #.# #.# ###.# #........>...######@# #.######## #.# #.# #.# #.############ #)# #........#####.######## #.# #.# #.# #.# ###.#.##..............# #.## #.# #.# #.# #.#........#.######.# #..# #.# #.# #.# #.########.#.# #.# ##.# #.# #.# #%# #.# #.....# #.# #.# ##.## #####.### #.# #.# #.#.### #.# #.#######...####.......# #.# #.#### #.#.#### #.# #.##......#......#####.# #####.# #....# #<.....# #.# ##.##.####...###..# #.###########.....# ####.# ###.##.# #.# #.....# ##...###..# #.##..........########## #.#####.##.# #.# #..######.....##..# #.##.###...............# #.......##.# #.# #..# #.......#..#####.##.# #.####.###.####.# #..#######.# #.# #..# #.......#........##.# #.# #.# #.# #.# #..# #.# #.# #..# #..........##.#####.# #.# #.###.# #.# #..# #.# #.# #..## #......##..##.# #.# #.# #..##.# #.# #..# #.#####.# #...# #.#...###..##.# #.###.# ##.##.# #.# #..# ##.......# ##..# #.###.# #..##.# #.....# #.##<# #.# #..######...###### #..# #.# #.# #..##.# #####.# #.##.# #.# ##............# #..# #.# #.###..##.# #.#####.##.# #.# #...........#.# #..# #.# #..##..##.#########..........# #.# #.#######.###.# #..# #.# ##.##...............#####.#######.# #.# #....## #..# #.# #.###.#...########.# #.# ##.##.###.#######.#### #>.####.####.###.#...# ######.#####.###.....##..........# #................#...# #........................######### ##...................# #.####.......#..........## ###########.........###.####.........##.####### ####.....................####.# ####################.......# ######### ############## #.......>....# #.###...####.############ #.# #...###.............# #.# #........##########.# ###.####...###.# #.# #..........# #.# ######.##### #.#.#####..# #.# #..........# #.#.# #..###.#####.####.###.# #.#.# #............# #.# #.# #.#.# ###.###.####### #.# #.# #.#.####.#.###.# #.# #.# #.......#......### #.# #.# #..###.###.......# #.###.# #..####.#.>#.###.########.....####### #....##.............................# ##.#.##....#.##.#.####.#####..#####.############# ###....#...##.##............#....................# #....#.....##........@........###########.#.#.##.# #.#....##..##..###.####.###.### ######.##.##.#.# #.#.....#..........# #.# #.# #..............# #.#.#.#.....#####..# #.# #.# #.####.##.##.### #.#.....#...# #..# #.# #.# #.# ##.#.#.## #.#.###...#.# #..# #.###.## #.# ##...## #.#>......#.# #.## #......# #.# ##.## #.######..#.#####.# #####..# #.# #.# #.# #..#.......# #..# #.# #.# #.# #..####.#### #..# #.# #.# #########.# #.## #.# #..# #.# #.# #.........# #.# #.# #..######.# #.# #.######### #.# #.# #..#......# #.# #.# ##.#####.############..#.###### #.# #.# #......................#.########## #.# #.# ##.#######.###########.#.##.......# #.# #.# #########.# #.# #.#.......##.# #.# #.# #.........# #.# #.####.##.##.# #.# #.######.######### #.# #########............# #.# #......#.# #.# #.........####.##.##.# #.########## ######.#.# #.# #.#####.....##.##.##.# #..........# #.#.####### #.# #.# #.....##.......# #..#######.# #.#.......# #.# #.# #.....###......# #..# #.# #.#######.# #.# #.# #.....###......# #..# #.# #.# #.# ###.###.# #..............# #..# #.# #.# #.# #.....#.# ###...###......# #..#######.# #.# #.# #.....#.# ##..# #......# #.......##.# #.# #.# #.......########..# ######.# ##.####.##.# #.# #.#######.............##..# #.# #.# #.##.# #.# #.............###.##..##..# #.# #.# #.##.# #.# ######........# #.##..##..# #.# #.####.##.# #.# #.##.....###.##......# #.# #.........# #.# #.#####......###.###.# #.# ######.#### #.# #.# #.#.##.###.###.# #.#########.# #.# #.# #.....<....<...########.#.........# #.############.# ###.##.###................######### #..............# #.##.###.############.### ################ #.........###########.# #########.............# ###############

Another generator I really like.

(cont'd)

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 08:48 by duvessa

layout_loops_cross:

Code:: ######## #################......# #..........#...........# ####.###.##.#.#.####.###..# #..@....@##.#.#.# #.##..># #.##?##..##.....# #.##.#.# #.##.##..####.### #.##.#.# #.##.##..####.# #......# #.##.##.......#### ####.### #.......####.....# #.# ####.#### #.....# ####.#### #.# #.....# #.......# #.#######.....# #.##.##.# #.....##......# #.##.##.# #####.##.###### #.##.##.# ##.##.# #.##.##.# #...#.# #.......# ######### #.....# #######.#### #.......# #.....#####.......# ##.#####.# ####..##...>...#### ##### ##..#####.######## #.....##.##.# #...######## ##...##...........#### #.###.##.##.# ##..........# #.......##.####.<....# #........##.########## #......####.# #####...#####.# ##.#.##.# ####...####..........# #.#.##.# #.## #.............###..#.##.# #...####..##.#.##.###.#.##.# #..# #.##############.....##.## #...............#.......##.# ##.# #.# #...........# #...#####.##.....####.####.# #.# ###.############.##.....#..# #...# #.##.....####.####.# #.# #.......##.............#...# #...# #........##........# #.# #....##.##.......##...###..#####...#####.##.....##.......######.#### #....##.##.......####..#........................##.......# #.......# #....##.##.......####.......................#.#..........# #.##.##.# #.......##..............#.................###.####.......# #.##.##.# ####.#####.......######.########...##########.####.......# #.##.##.# #.## ######### #.# ##.#.## #.......#.......###.##.##.# ###..######## #.# #.###.# #.##.##.####......#.##.##.# #...........# ########.# ##.#.## #.##.#.......####.#.......# #.##..#.###.# #........# ####...# #....#..####.##........#### #.##..#.###.# #.######## #......# #..###..........#.###### #.##.....##.###.# #.##...### #..###..#.##.####.# #.###.#.........# #........#####.......#.##.####.# #.......###.##### #######..#........###................# #####.......# #............#.##.#######.#####.###### ######### #.#####......#.##.##...##.#####.# #.##.........#.##.#..#..#.......# #.##.##........##...###.######### #........#..#######..#..# #.>.........# ##...## ##.#..#.###.### ##.## #.##.#.#.....# #.# #......#.....# #.# ####.###.....# ###.### #.# #.....# #.....# #####.# #.....# #.....# #.....######### #.....# #........# #.....# #..#####.# #.<...# #..#####.# ###.### #.....##.# #.# ##.##.##.############.# #.##.................# #.......############## #########

The shape fixity means this one is pretty much always less interesting than loops_misc.

layout_loops_corners:

Code:: ######## #.#####.# #......# #.# #.# #########.####.## ######## #.#####.####### #.....##........# #......# #.##..........########## #..###.#..####..# #.####.###.#...#.#.###..........# #..# #.......#..# #.# #..........#....##..#######.# #..###.....#.#..###### #.# #..###.#...#.....#..##### #.# #.#...#...##.........# #.# #..# #..........##......# #.# #.######..####..####.# #.###..# #########.####.###.###.# #.# #..<.....# #.####......### #.# #.#.......# #.# #.######.# #...######....# #.# #.#.#.##..# #####.# ##........# ###.# ####.# ##+## #.........# #.....# ##...####### #.# #.# ##...#####.#..#.## #.##### ##.....## ### #.# #.# ##.....## #.##.#.# #..## ##.......## ##.###.# ##.## ##.......###......# ##...####.........####...##.########...####.........####...## #.......+....>....+.......................+.........+.......# #####...####.........####...##.########...####.........####...## #.........###.......## ##.###.# #......# ##.......## ##.## #.###.###.# ##.....## ### #.# #.##.#.# ##.....## #.# #.# #.# #.# ##...## #.# #.##.#.# ##...## #.# #.# #.# #.# ##+## #.# #....#.# ##+## #.# #.###.###.# #.# #####.# #.####.# #.# #.# #.........# #.#########.....# #.# #.# #.# #.# #####.##########.........#.##### ###.####.# ##.## #.# #.##..........######.#.# #........######...#### #.# #.##.#####.....# #.#.# #.###.##.............#####.# #........##...######.#.# #.# #....######...##.......# ####.###..........##.#.# #.###.#### ##.########### #.# #####..###......# #.....# #.# #.# #.........### ####### #.# #.#######.######### #.# #.........# #.# #########.# #.# ####.# #.# ########### ##....# #.# #.........# #.....############## #.# ###.#######.# #..................# #.# #.......# #.# #.....############.# ##.## #.#.###.# #.# #######......## #......# ##...## #.#.###.###.# #.............# #.####.#### ###########.....####.#.........# #.#####.##...## #.#.......# #....................#####.##### #.# #.....## #.#....##.# #.###########.######## #...# #.# #####.# #.#.##.##.# #.# #.# #.### #.# #.# #.#.##.##.# #.# #.# ####.##### #.# ##+## #.........# #.# ##+## #........# #.# ##...## ###.####### #.### ##...## #.#.....># #.# ##.....## #.# ##...## ##.....## #.#..##..# ###.## ##.......## ##.## #.....# ##.......## #.#..##..# #####....####.........####...#########.....####.........###.....#..# #...........+.........+.).@...................+.........+..........# #.###....####.........##........####.......####.........###.....##.# #.# #...## ##.......###.##.###.# #.###...# ##.......## #.#.#.##.# #.# ###># ##.....## #.##..##.# #.##....# ##.....## #........# #.#####.# ##...## #.###.##.# #.#..#..# ##...## #####.#### #.......# ##+## #.###.##.# #.#.....# ##+## #.# #######.# #.# #........# #.#.###.# #.# #.# #.# #.# #####.#### #.......########.#### #.# #.# ##.## #.# ###.##..............# #.# ###.### ##...#########.# #<##.##.##.##...#.########.# #.....### #..............# #.##.##.##.#...............# #.###...# ##....########## #.##.##.##.##...############ #.# #...#####.#.# #.##.##.##.###.## #.###...........# #.......##.# ### #.....########### ####.#####.# ####### #.......# ######### #.#######.# ####### ######## #.# #.# ############ #######.....## #####.>....# ##.##### #.# ### ##..........# #.......###..###..<.....#.# #......# #.###.## #.....#####.# #.#####.# #..........##.#.# #..###.###.##...###.......# #.# #.# #.###....#.######.#.##### #..##...................#.# #.# #.# #.......##..............# #..........##...####...##.# #.# #.# ######.#######.###..##..# #.############.## ##.###.###.# #.# #.# #.# #..##..# #.# #.# #.........# ####.##### #.# #.# #..##..# #.# #.# #####.##### #........# ##+## #.###.###..# #.# ##+## #.# #.##.###.# ##...## #..........###.### ##...## #.# #.#..###.# ##.....## #####............## ##.....## ##.# #..#..##.###.......## ##.#.#####.##.#..## ##.......## ##..# #........##.........####....#####.##.#...####.........####...## ###.......+.........+.......................+.........+.......# ##....###.........####....#####.#.......###.........####...## ##.#.# ##.......## ##.#.# #.#.##..#.# ##.......## #..## ###.# ##.....## ###.# #.#.##.##.# ##.....## #.## #.# ##...## #.# #.#.##..#.# ##...## #.# #.# ##+## ####.# #.......#.# ##+## ##.## #.# #.# #....# ###.###.#.# #.# #...# #.# #.########.#### #.###.#.# #.# ###...### #.# ##.......##.## #.......# ##.## #....#..# #.######...####.#...## #####.########...## #...###.# #...........###..###.# #.# #....>...# #....#..# ########......>..# #.# #.# #.##.....#####....## #...####..###.# #.####.##.#.#..........# ##.## #.#...## #.........#.#.######...# #.#####.##### ######.####.#.# ##### #.......# #.# #.#.# #.####### #.####.#.# #.# ########## #........# #.# #........# ######.### ##.#######.######.# #.# #######........#.######.# #.###### #........##..........##.# ############......### #.#####.@##.##.#.###.##.# #...................# #######.###.#...#.##.#.###.##.# #.#########...###.#.######## #.................##.#........# #.# #.....##.#........# #.#####.###.#..>####.#####.#### #.# ##...###.#.######.# #.# #.#####........# #.# ##.## ##..# #......# #.# #.# #........####### #.# ###.#.## #..#####.##.# #.# #.# ########.# #.# #..###.# #........##.###.# ##.## ##+## #.# #.#.#.## ##+######........# #...# ##...## #.# #.##.## ##...## ####.##### ###...### ##.....## ###.### #.##### ##.....## #.# #.......## ##.......######.....## #.###.## ##.......## ##.## #........####.........##....###..####.##...####.........####...## #...........+.........+.....# #...............+.........+.......# ###......####.........##.#..###..####.##...####.........###....## #...#.## ##.......###.##......# #.###.######.......## #.#.## ##.#### ##.....## #.##.####.####........# ##.....## #.### #.#### ##...## #.........##.....####.# ##...## #.# #.##.## ##+## ####.#######.....## #.# ##+## ####.##### #.#...## #.# #.# #......# #.######.# #........# #......# #.# #.# #......# #........# #.##.###.# ###...## ###.## #.# #......# #..####..## #.##.# #.# ##.## #....########.##### ###.##.###..# ##...###.##.# #.# #.# #.#..<............# #.........###.....<#.##.###.# #.#######....#####......#.# ####.......###...#.#........# #...........## #......#.# ######..###..........##### ############# #......#.# #........#.###### #......#.# #.####.....# #.######.# #......##### #........# ######## ##########

This one is a much better complement to loops_misc but it seems like it's generating awfully big levels?

layout_pools:

Code:: ### #.# ##.### #....## #.....# #####...## ####...##.## #### #.##.......# ##..### #### ######..........# #.....# #..## #.........<.#...# ##<..## #...## ##...............##### #....# #....# #.................##.###...### ####....# ##................#..##......# #.#.....## #..............#............#####........#### #....#.........#...........##.#..........#..# ##...##.....................................# ##.......................#.............###..## #.............##.........#..##......##...##..# #...###.......####...........##......###....## ##..............##...........##.......###...# ##..............#.....................###.## #..............##.....................# ### ##...............#.##..........####...## ##...........................##..##.....### #........#...............##......##.......### ##.......#............#####.................#### ###...#................##..#.................##.## ##......................>#........................### #...###.............................................## ##>.####..............................................##### #....#..........##..................................####..## ###.....###.....#............................>.............# ####......# #................................................# ##.........#####...##........................................## #.....#.....#................#...............#....#.......#### #.....#...................................#.###.........### ##...##...................##.............#####.........## #.......................................## ##.#......## #..#.#.................................######...#.##### #..###..................................#..#....#### #....................../..#......................#.# ###..#..##...............##..#................#....## #########.......#####..#..###..##............##...# #.......## ##....####..##..##.............# #........###..##@...#.###..##.......##...## ##.....#..#...###.....###...#........##..# ####...#...............#..............#### #....##................#....#.#......### ##........................######..#.....# #................................###...## ##............................#### ##### #..........................#.# ###........................### ##......................## ###........##...........# #.........##.......##..## ###....#.##......#####.# #...##.####....# ### ##.##### ##...## ### ##....# #.....# ##....# ##..## #### ##### ### ####...# ##.## #......###...### #......##....#.## #.....####......# #..........###..### ###...##...##.....## ##..........#.....## #...........#......# ##..........#......# ##................## ### ##................## ###### #.## ##...............#.##### ##....###..#### ##......................## #####.............# ######............#..>........# ##.............#...####...#K........................# #>.............#........(................#........### #..............##....>...K...............#........# ###...#........##!.?@5...................##.#...### ###..#...........?...........#..........##..##..# #.............##.............#.............###..# #.............##...............#.##........#....# ###..............................#####...........## #..............##................#####............#### ###..............................##.#................## ##.........##..................#.......###..........# #..#......#.......##....##.......#......##.....#..## ##.##....................#.......##........#...#.## ######....................................##...## ##...###.<...........##...........##.......# ##.....................#....##.............## ###..........###........###...#............#.# ##............# #........##.................##### ##.............###...........................###.# ### #.............##.#............................##.#####.### ##........................##......#................##....## ##..................#.#...#......#..........#............# ##.................#.##.....#.............##............# ##..................##.....#..#...>..........#.........# #............................##.#..........#####.......# ###....###....#.................###......#....<.....#.## ###...##........................#####.###.##......#### #............<...##............######..#.......#### #............###..##.............#.#........#### #..................##...##.................## ##.................##....#..................# ##...#..............#.......................# #........#..............##....##...........## ###..#...#...............#.................# #.##..###...#............................# ####### #######.....................###### #.###................## ### #...............## ###.............# #...........#.### ###.........#..## ##.............# #..............# #..##......##.## ##.....##..#### #.....#...# #######..## ##.# ###

Seems to be overly similar to caves, with the same issues.

I skipped over some layouts that I don't think stand out either way. Also, yes, the vaults layout is good.

So you've probably noticed a pattern here: layouts with more open space have both more fixity and less varied gameplay, This makes layout_forbidden_donut, layout_big_octagon, layout_city, layout_caves (in D) and its imitators, layout_twisted_cavern, layout_onion, and layout_hall_layers big offenders that should probably be heavily revised, appear less often, or both.

also, character limits are bad for this

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 09:25 by Sar

I don't mind octagon layouts; they can be interesting depending on what enemies spawned there due to the way they place stairs. You need to be careful because you can't just make a lot of noise next to one staircase and then descend down another. Though I guess you can wait a lot.

Donuts are kind of boring, yeah.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 10:37 by Galefury

There are some mismatched code tags in the last post. Also some layouts are missing their name.

It was very interesting to see all the layouts laid out next to each other like this, thanks!

I mostly agree about the open space thing, I think really open levels are interesting to have occasionally, but they should probably have low weight, no allow_dup, or possibly even a shared unique tag.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 10:53 by crate

The thing that makes open space interesting is precisely it contrasting with not-open space, to some degree; this allows for interesting positioning to happen. Octagon layout in particular lacks this contrast, and much of the time the only positioning concerns in octagon floors are "what is my path back to the stairs". Other than the stairs, it's not too much of a stretch to say that any space in an octagon floor is the same as any other space, tactically. That's about as far from interesting as you can get.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 10:56 by Galefury

Well, I think variety is interesting. And positioning sometimes being not so important means variety.

Edit: but yeah, I don't really like octagon either.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 11:05 by crate

If you want to see open space done well look at lair levels. Lair has tons of open space (at least when it picks a layout that isnt too closed), yet it has also the generally most interesting positioning in crawl (thanks in large part to the way that lair specifically messes with level gen after the layout has been chosen). Zot layouts are not bad. The city layouts have definite good places to be and bad places to be. Octagon has none of this, except that very loosely being toward the outside is better (and yes donut has the same problem).

Variety is fine, but I don't feel like saying that "where your character is standing should matter" is a weird thing to say. The problem with octagon isn't that it's open, it's that it's open in a particular way that is literally as uninteresting as you can get. It's just as bad as just a square box.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 13:04 by evilmike

This is a good idea for a thread.

I think if lowering the weight of a layout is warranted, it could also be made so it can only generate once per game. This would be a good idea for things like the cross layout, which can produce fun gameplay but feels same-y if you get several of them.

For cases like layout_caves, it might be better to remove it entirely from the D rotation, and have it be unique to Orc and Slime. I think it's good for branches to mostly have unique levels - either having unique layouts, or using regular layouts but doing something unique with them (which is what Lair does). And I think layout caves is less interesting in D anyway.

As for stuff like layout_waterfall, it seems ugly to me, and it also doesn't offer anything new that other layouts don't already do. It would make sense to get rid of this one on aesthetic reasons alone, I think.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 14:06 by Mulzaro

About the lair and its messing with the layouts, am I the only one who really hates it? I think the rough walls with holes here and there are VERY annoying. Add some bushes and fungi there too to mess with it even more. I know the idea is to make the area more "wildish", but it's still just a mess in my opinion. Eight floors of this make me sometimes want to kill myself. I have no problems with other areas other than the octagon and maybe cross which are quite repetitive.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 14:39 by XuaXua

duvessa wrote:layout_loops_cross:

There is a problem in this post with the code breaks.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 14:41 by XuaXua

I am always disappointed when an inaccessible, giant area of black doesn't contain a smaller vault bubble accessible either by dig or through stairs from an adjacent level.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 15:02 by TheDefiniteArticle

I wanna say that, conceptually, I like long_grid/waterfall a lot, they are memorable and keep me thinking during the part of the game where I am apt to be autopiloting. Although long_grid is better than waterfall at basically everything.

Mulzaro wrote:About the lair and its messing with the layouts, am I the only one who really hates it? I think the rough walls with holes here and there are VERY annoying. Add some bushes and fungi there too to mess with it even more. I know the idea is to make the area more "wildish", but it's still just a mess in my opinion. Eight floors of this make me sometimes want to kill myself. I have no problems with other areas other than the octagon and maybe cross which are quite repetitive.

That's my favorite thing about Lair. More improvisation happens as a result, and the temporary blockage provided by plants is an interesting feature that doesn't happen elsewhere.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 15:09 by crate

I dislike plants in lair but the way it messes with walls is amazing, it's so good it can even make octagon and donut interesting.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 18:13 by Ghoul King

The city variants are actually some of my favorite floors, in part because your cover frequently has stuff inside that you want to control when you wake it up, rather than flinging fireballs indiscriminately and discovering your protection contains a huge Gnoll pack or something by virtue of them coming out to check out the racket. Most floor designs you can treat any wall as impassable to all sound, because there's nothing just on the other side (or there is but it doesn't really matter because it'll take it 50+ turns to reach you and it'll forget it heard anything well before then) but not in the city designs. My only complaint with them is that the doorless 'buildings' never have anything to dig to or anything.

I loathe octagon and donut completely, especially since (unless I'm misunderstanding which floors you're talking about. I'm reasonably confident on octagon) they default to placing all the up stairs at one spot and all the down stairs elsewhere. As such, if you walk down and find yourself facing a dire situation you can't just retreat and go down a different set of stairs, which can be a death sentence if you get one of these before Lair or Orc. You can't even do the dumb thing and retreat into the black because your back is against a wall.

I have no particular opinion on the other floor designs. (Or I'm not recognizing how they would appear ingame)

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 18:22 by XuaXua

I find layout_twisted_cavern to be super-dull, with too much back-tracking and sometimes lots of unused real-estate.

I think it could be enhanced with

well-placed fixed-destination teleporters (I haven't seen those in a while)
fewer dead-ends, or looping dead-ends back into the path at unexpected junctures.
rooms or caves spawning off the path edges; I wonder if the angled nature of the walls prevents some vaults from attaching.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 18:25 by XuaXua

Ghoul King wrote:I loathe octagon and donut completely, especially since (unless I'm misunderstanding which floors you're talking about. I'm reasonably confident on octagon) they default to placing all the up stairs at one spot and all the down stairs elsewhere. As such, if you walk down and find yourself facing a dire situation you can't just retreat and go down a different set of stairs, which can be a death sentence if you get one of these before Lair or Orc. You can't even do the dumb thing and retreat into the black because your back is against a wall.

Not a fan either, but there's usually a potential death sentence red stair you can sneak down, or go back up, read/evoke teleportation, and go back down.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 18:49 by Ghoul King

I don't know if it's bad luck on my part or if the level generator has something wrong with it, but the trapdoor usually dumps me into the middle of the mess, not on the other side in a different mess. And either way I think the only time that kind of stair placement is acceptable is if the floor refuses to spawn enemies near the stairs. (And even then it makes stair-dancing considerably more dangerous, but not any more interesting)

EDIT: OK no Donut is a different level than I was thinking, and one I don't loathe entirely. I'd just thought one of the (many) octagon designs was 'donut'. (One of the ones the blocks the center)

EDIT EDIT: Upon closer examination I recognize Twisty Caverns, and it's one I like a lot too. Open enough that it's difficult to abuse Conjure Flame, Summons, etc, but not so open and concentrated that you wake one Goblin and half the level dogpiles you. (Which is part of what I hate about Octagon)

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 19:44 by XuaXua

Ghoul King wrote:EDIT EDIT: Upon closer examination I recognize Twisty Caverns, and it's one I like a lot too. Open enough that it's difficult to abuse Conjure Flame, Summons, etc, but not so open and concentrated that you wake one Goblin and half the level dogpiles you. (Which is part of what I hate about Octagon)

It's the uninteresting cavern and the backtracking that bothers me the most.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 20:03 by tasonir

Slightly different topic than openness vs corridor layouts, does anyone else hate fraying in general? Knocking out/adding one wall tile around the edges doesn't make much of a difference, and it confuses the hell out of autoexplore. It's quite rare that anything would generate/hide in the very edge of a map, yet it's pretty easy for autoexplore to add 100-200 turns to a level bouncing you from one side to the other, and then back again.

This could be solved by not using autoexplore, but I think autoexplore is extremely popular and widely used. Using it shouldn't be considered a bad thing.

Thursday, 15th May 2014, 22:07 by eeviac

Octagon, Cross, and Donut are pretty much never fun.

Friday, 16th May 2014, 00:21 by Megabass

You should know by now 'fun' doesn't enter into anything around here.

Friday, 16th May 2014, 00:21 by Patashu

tasonir wrote:Slightly different topic than openness vs corridor layouts, does anyone else hate fraying in general? Knocking out/adding one wall tile around the edges doesn't make much of a difference, and it confuses the hell out of autoexplore. It's quite rare that anything would generate/hide in the very edge of a map, yet it's pretty easy for autoexplore to add 100-200 turns to a level bouncing you from one side to the other, and then back again.

This could be solved by not using autoexplore, but I think autoexplore is extremely popular and widely used. Using it shouldn't be considered a bad thing.

I think a smarter autoexplore could be made that isn't so tripped up by weird edges. Maybe by making it prioritize black tiles in LoS that are in smaller groups rather than larger ones (just off the top of my head)

Friday, 16th May 2014, 06:25 by infiniplex

I seem to have inherited control of layouts when mumra left due to Real Life stuff. I am intending to due a layout adjustment (especially weights) based on this thread. I would appreciate thought of other people, especially if you are better at Crawl than I am (almost everyone here) or understand game balance well.

Layouts are in different types (a technical term for groups) based on their rough style. A rough list would be
A: "city" layouts: layout_city, etc.
B: "rooms" layouts: narrow passages and rooms
C: narrow passage "misc" layouts: layout_loops_???
D: "open" layouts: big and open with straight walls - EDIT
E: big passage layouts: layout_twisted_cavern, layout_waterfall, layout_hall_layers, many hell branch layouts, etc.
-> possibly be should be 2 categories for "rooms" and "no rooms"
F: divided layouts: A big room divided into smaller rooms by walls
G: "cave" layouts: big, open, and irregular, with special tiles in D - EDIT

Z: branch-specific layout styles: vaults, shoals, swamp
-> I don't know if geoelf layouts count for this
Y: encompass vaults: usually at branch ends

There are three questions here:
1. Which types should be in which branches? Is this a good list of types? Also, some of the types need better names (e.g. C, E, F).
2. Within types, which layouts are good and bad, and (most importantly) why?
3. What sort of changes would improve individual layouts? Note that disconnect layouts (i.e. if there are places other than specially-defined vaults that you cannot get to from an up stairs) are normally considered an error. Attempting to create them usually just causes crawl to generate another layout instead. If they show up anyway, this is probably a bug.

There is a place for branch layout theory on the devwiki at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... on:layouts. Ideas are welcome.

layout_city: The buildings are placed on a grid. They could be moved closer together, but overlapping them would cause serious connectivity problems, especially if they had thick walls.

Friday, 16th May 2014, 10:20 by dpeg

minmay: Thanks for original posts!
infiniplex: Thanks for taking this up!

Yesterday's ##crawl-dev discussion has revealed that developers are happy with octagon and cross -- no immediate changes are necessary, although further octagon variance seems desirable (elliptic had ideas). Donut was considered to be a greater problem than either of these two, probably because it comes up much more often. The cross vaults might be better off without the chance for glass walls (and fauna in the surrounding area).

From looking at minmay's screenshots, my feeling is this:
1. Make cave layouts exclusive to Orc and Slime.
2. Remove waterfall (nobody seems to have encountered it, and it looks really bad in ASCII, in my opinion.
3. Reduce donut weight.
4. (edit) Reduce twisted cavern weight. And/or restrict branch-wise.

Note that I am not an expert on layouts, and that most developers don't read/write over here.

Friday, 16th May 2014, 12:00 by Sprucery

evilmike wrote:I think if lowering the weight of a layout is warranted, it could also be made so it can only generate once per game. This would be a good idea for things like the cross layout, which can produce fun gameplay but feels same-y if you get several of them.

I think this is a very good point. In addition to cross, at least octagon and donut layouts should be subject to this restriction, in my opinion.

Also, Lair is great and I don't mind waterfall (which should probably also be once-only, if not removed).

Friday, 16th May 2014, 12:32 by Quazifuji

Personally, I agree with duvessa's big complaints that the layouts most people are complaining about (donut, cross, octagon, and maybe twisted caverns) is that they're not varied enough. Personally, the best solution seems to me to be making them much rarer. Right now, it feels like I encounter at least two of those layouts per game, and they play out very similarly each time. To some extent, I feel that they're much more interesting as novelties than as well-designed levels, but in order for them to have novelty they have to be rarer than they are now.

I actually personally find Twisted Caverns the least interesting of these. All four of them, especially octagon and twisted caverns, have the issue of possible positions being much less varied than in a typical floor. But in octagon, cross, and donut, dealing wit the openness and complete lack of choke points is part of the challenge. There isn't much variety in position, and the average position is much worse than in most floors. You have to ply carefully to avoid getting surrounded. Octagon also has the additional challenge of the grouped stairs, although, as some people have pointed out, they can sometimes feel a bit unfair if you get something especially nasty guarding them.

On the other hand, twisted caverns' layout doesn't really have that challenge aspect. The whole thing being so linear means you rarely have to worry much about getting caught in bad positions. Yeah, you can't fight things one at a time in a corridor, but it's basically just plain easier than the open layouts while being less interesting than most non-open layouts. I think, more than any other layout in the game, when I encounter twisted caverns I'm extremely likely to play it using almost exclusively the O and Tab keys. Positioning and strategic exploration just make so little difference there.

Friday, 16th May 2014, 14:25 by duvessa

dpeg wrote:Yesterday's ##crawl-dev discussion has revealed that developers are happy with octagon and cross -- no immediate changes are necessary, although further octagon variance seems desirable (elliptic had ideas). Donut was considered to be a greater problem than either of these two, probably because it comes up much more often.

Donut has exactly the same weight as octagon, unless you're in Pan...

Saturday, 17th May 2014, 00:57 by sgrunt

Relevant.

This probably won't be the last adjustment there; I'm mainly trying to get a feel for what will work there and what won't.

Saturday, 17th May 2014, 04:14 by infiniplex

duvessa: What layouts do you think would be good in Zot? Right now I don't think we have any specifically designed for that branch, so we have to use more generic ones.

Quazifuji: Do you have any suggestions for how to improve the layout_twisty_passages? More branching was suggested above, and is not to hard to change. Teleporters were suggested somewhere, but I think they are unofficially banned. What else would be improve the layout?

Saturday, 17th May 2014, 05:46 by duvessa

infiniplex wrote:duvessa: What layouts do you think would be good in Zot? Right now I don't think we have any specifically designed for that branch, so we have to use more generic ones.

The same ones I identified as being good everywhere else.

Sunday, 18th May 2014, 14:17 by Quazifuji

infiniplex wrote:Quazifuji: Do you have any suggestions for how to improve the layout_twisty_passages? More branching was suggested above, and is not to hard to change. Teleporters were suggested somewhere, but I think they are unofficially banned. What else would be improve the layout?

More branches would help, but doesn't solve the ultimate problem: when a level contains only 3-tile-wide corridors, strategic exploration and tactical position are basically non-existent. Branching passages might make the level more interesting and less tedious to explore, but I don't think they'd make the strategy or tactics any more interesting. In the end, you still have the "every position is the same as every other position" aspect.

Overall, I think you'd need to alter the concept of the layout in order to make it work, and add something besides the 3-tile corridors. The level can still be filled with wide diagonal corridors like now, but it should have more variety. The occasional room or other feature would go a long way towards making the floor more interesting, because variation in tactical positioning would still exist, but you would have to adapt to the lack of good choke points or doors.

Sunday, 18th May 2014, 17:22 by XuaXua

infiniplex wrote:Do you have any suggestions for how to improve the layout_twisty_passages? More branching was suggested above, and is not to hard to change. Teleporters were suggested somewhere, but I think they are unofficially banned. What else would be improve the layout?

XuaXua wrote:I find layout_twisted_cavern to be super-dull, with too much back-tracking and sometimes lots of unused real-estate.

I think it could be enhanced with
fewer dead-ends, or looping dead-ends back into the path at unexpected junctures.
rooms or caves spawning off the path edges; I wonder if the angled nature of the walls prevents some vaults from attaching.

Sunday, 18th May 2014, 23:15 by infiniplex

There are now map screenshots of some layouts available on the devwiki. These are mostly the older layouts so far, but I hope to add more.

https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... yout_types

Monday, 19th May 2014, 00:18 by XuaXua

When you see it like that, I don't know why cross doesn't say "North passage generated using twisted cavern", "South and East generated as cross" and "west generated as {insert here}".

Monday, 19th May 2014, 10:40 by Hurkyl

For twisted cavern, some minor things that might help it out a lot are:

If the up/down stairs were more evenly dispersed through the level.
If it were a loop.
If there was a guaranteed place where a Wand of Digging could make a passage to shorten travel times

Monday, 19th May 2014, 15:47 by Roderic

I'm thinking of a new layout based on concentric rings, where optionally each ring can be partitioned into different rooms. You start at a room in the center and the downsstairs are always in the most external ring.

Monday, 19th May 2014, 23:50 by infiniplex

Roderic wrote:I'm thinking of a new layout based on concentric rings, where optionally each ring can be partitioned into different rooms. You start at a room in the center and the downstairs are always in the most external ring.

There are 3 existing layouts sort of like this
1. layout_onion (Snake, Zot)
2. layout_onion_interference (Snake, Zot, but disabled for some reason)
3. layout_concentric_octagons (Elf, Snake, Depths, Zot, added 2014-05-13)

There is nothing wrong with new layouts, but I am not sure on how it differs from what we have. Could you do some sort of example?

Layouts placing stairs is normally frowned on because because of teleport. If the down stairs are placed predictably, experienced players can use controlled teleport to skip most of the level. If the stairs are merely placed far from the other stairs, a random teleport decrease your average travel time significantly.

Also, I added a lot more layout images on the devwiki page: Now 49/69 done.
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... yout_types

Monday, 19th May 2014, 23:57 by infiniplex

Hurkyl wrote:For twisted cavern, some minor things that might help it out a lot are:

If the up/down stairs were more evenly dispersed through the level.
If it were a loop.
If there was a guaranteed place where a Wand of Digging could make a passage to shorten travel times

For the stairs, do you mean that e.g. one up stairs should be at one end of the path, one at the other end, and one in the middle? Or do you mean that the stairs should alternate up, down, up, down, etc.? Of something else?

The delve generator (that makes layout_twisty_cavern) is a sophisticated random walk, so it cannot easily be directed. I would guess that the other 2 are thus impractical. Sadly.

Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 08:05 by Hurkyl

infiniplex wrote:
Hurkyl wrote:For twisted cavern, some minor things that might help it out a lot are:

If the up/down stairs were more evenly dispersed through the level.
If it were a loop.
If there was a guaranteed place where a Wand of Digging could make a passage to shorten travel times

For the stairs, do you mean that e.g. one up stairs should be at one end of the path, one at the other end, and one in the middle?

Or both. I've had some worst case scenarios where I essentially had to travel essentially the entire cavern every time I wanted to go through the level, which was really annoying (due to real time, game time, and that I encounter practically every enemy that spawns on the level each time),

Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 12:38 by XuaXua

Hurkyl wrote:
infiniplex wrote:For the stairs, do you mean that e.g. one up stairs should be at one end of the path, one at the other end, and one in the middle?

I've had some worst case scenarios where I essentially had to travel essentially the entire cavern every time I wanted to go through the level

This was what I was getting at with my suggestions.

Thursday, 22nd May 2014, 22:29 by infiniplex

All the layout images and descriptions are now in.

https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... yout_types

If anyone has ideas about layouts of any kind (including duplicates), I would appreciate them. This includes:
-> Things that are good/bad about layouts
-> Which layouts you would like to see more/less of
-> Where layouts should/shouldn't be
-> Ideas to improve layouts
-> Ideas for new layouts the game should have

I don't want to do a major revision and make everything worse.

Friday, 23rd May 2014, 01:06 by reaver

I've disable layout_big_grid because as mentioned here it's not really interesting.