Demonspawn Mutation Feedback


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Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 13th April 2011, 19:44

Demonspawn Mutation Feedback

Just my thoughts on Demonspawn Mutations. See Demonspawn Brainstorming and Demonspawn Feedback on the wiki.

Wishlist: Earth Facet, Air Facet (but it can't duplicate Black Draconians, or even be terribly similar), Poison Facet, Translocation facet

  • Ice 1 - rC, Conserve Potions, Icemail - Excellent. It's thematic and useful
  • Ice 2 - rC, Conserve Potions, Passive Freeze - Ditto. I love getting these.
  • Fire 1 - rF, Conserve Scrolls, Hellfire - I have never gotten this. I might have played a DS slated to get this, but they all must have splatted before they did.
  • Nightstalker (3 Levels) - increased stealth, decreased LOS - Claustrophobia! (I like this one)
  • Spiny (3L)- Damages opponents in melee by a small amount - Is this affected by Slaying/Might? It gets your player to lean toward melee, whatever they were planning to do before, which I think is a positive thing.
  • Powered by Death (3L) - Corpses in radius cause you to regenerate
  • Powered by Pain (3L) - Damage done to you gives you MP, a la Sublimation of Flesh
  • Resist Negative (3L) - up to N immunity
    • I don't like this one. It seems thematic at first, but then it just crosses off one nice-to-have resistance from your hunt. It's entirely passive, and particularly prior to V:8, it's not especially helpful. Now that XP cap is gone, however, this is a good extended endgame mutation, since it allows you to hold on to all 79,000 XP.
      I would like rN as part of a facet, though, like the Ice facet. Perhaps rN, Summon Shadow, Vampiric Aura/Touch (or possibly >25% HP damage [Torment excepted?] curses the attacker with a mummy curse - Slow, Pain, Drain, Agony, Summon Reaper, Summon Soul Eater). There are many other ideas on the wiki that could easily coalesce into a Necro/Negative facet.I don't really want to see a Necro wiz bonus, though; that would be boring and already part of the Mummy schtick.
  • Resist Torment (3L) - 1/5, 2/5, 3/5 chance to avoid Torment
    • I don't like this one, much either, and for reasons similar my dislike of rN mutation. I do realize that this is just an opinion, and doesn't necessarily indicate that there is something wrong with these two mutations.
  • Demonic Guardian (3L) - At high tension, a demon or two is summoned to help you
    • The first time I got this, and watched as an Executioner went bushwhacking through my enemies, I liked it. However, my opinion on it has changed, and pretty much reflect smiley's reasons on the wiki: You can't control them very well (especially since they decide when to show), they steal XP, and they get in the way of spells.
      Perhaps they could be moved to an (a)bility with a hostility counter, such that a back-to-back call for help will get you a pissed off demon, with chance for hostility decreasing either with time or with kills or both. Naturally, at the 3rd level, the counter would be much longer.
  • Body Slot - Claws| Talons, Hooves| Beak, Horns, Antennae (3L, detect small radius, level 3 SInv)
  • Random Scales, Thin Skeletal Structure, or Repulsion Field - I like almost all of these (Rough Black scales is the exception), so fun to see which one I get
  • Magic Resistance (3L) - MR is nice, I think, but not terribly thematic -> possibly a magic facet?
  • Passive Mapping (3L)- While I like this one, I seem to get it if I think I'd like to go Ash :P. It is useful, though, especially in Orc or on levels with a portal.


If I've left out a mutation or something, lemme know. These are all I could think of.
Last edited by dolphin on Wednesday, 13th April 2011, 22:11, edited 1 time in total.
Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 13th April 2011, 21:20

Re: Demonspawn Mutation Feedback

Thanks for the feedback. I have you ideas for new DS mutations, add them to the wiki (once you feel they're polished -- this does not just hold for the OP, by the way).

On rN and rTorment: These clearly are thematic. The gameplay idea behind them is, that while passive, they allow you to use torment yourself! Did you ever try this? I can imagine enriching these into facets, but I don't think we should scrap them. (Also, these are sort of inherited from the old DS mutation model.)

On demonic guardian: active power is exactly what we not wanted. Old DS had active abilities, and I believe the passive one is much more interesting. I could imagine a "demonic void" command (as 't'ell, not 'a'bility, probably) but the basic premise is like with the other mutations: you can plan for it. If you decide to ignore it (which currently requires them to "stay here", I guess), you forfeit one of your DS powers. Personally, I have never felt the presence of a guardian to be a nuisance. I like this mutation a lot in my games.

Snake Sneak

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Joined: Tuesday, 18th January 2011, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 13th April 2011, 21:47

Re: Demonspawn Mutation Feedback

I think the only mutation you are missing is Mapping.

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 14th April 2011, 05:53

Re: Demonspawn Mutation Feedback

Torment resistance is fine for me. I feel that it's just a matter of your ancestry asserting itself at random. Is that a horrible thing?
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Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 14th April 2011, 07:27

Re: Demonspawn Mutation Feedback

not quite "horrible", but in crawl you usually want stuff you can count on, specially later on, no matter what it amounts to. you can't count on a 60% stochastic resistance. i'd much rather have the damage reduced by the appropriate fraction, or less if it's deemed too strong. (i don't think it conflicts with the reduction you'll get from rN any more than it does in its current incarnation.)

on paper it does fit nicely with the random nature of demonspawn, but in practice is something you never think of or try to take advantage of, as minmay said. it's just there, and you'll plan for the time it fails three times in a row.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 14th April 2011, 16:23

Re: Demonspawn Mutation Feedback

Demonspawn are rather unstable for lack of a better word, in the way that they can turn out excessively powerful (disregarding post-endgame) or have negligible if not detrimental effects from their mutations.

I certainly dislike the mapping mutation. Once in a while you'll find some hidden vault with maybe some nice stuff or something it seems, but you can usually feel when you've missed something and mapping scrolls aren't too rare. It just seems lacking in comparison to the other mutations, instead of "Cool, that'll help me not die" it's kind of "Oh.. there goes another slot". Though I could just not be using to properly or something.

I don't get why there are both Iridescent and Rough Black scales.

Demonic guardian feels way too easy early game, it's almost garauntees that you will escape death multiple times in the early dungeon/branches.

Never got passive freeze or hellfire, freeze seems similar to the iridescent/black scales scenario though in contrast to spines.

Wouldn't mind another hand slot for mutations as there are 2 (not counting beak, don't get it with DS anyhow) head and foot slot mutations. A suggestion would be something along the line of suction cups (Intruding on Jivya?) which at rank 3 give cling but decrease accuracy (octopi are not formidable swordsmen).

Don't know if this fits into the randomness of the DS mutation jazz, but hows a 1/10 or whatever chance to get monstrous is to also get a semi predefined (few variables) demon-likeness (set of mutations to appear similar to a demon). Such as balrugs get the fire powerups, fire scales I guess and horns, and such other offensive mutations and another that is more stealth oriented (this is solely because I'd love to see both thin skeleton and nightstalker in one game). "You experience haunting flashbacks of your mother shagging a Balrug."

Finally I'd really really like to have all the mutations either be static or variable, as some cannot be changed by any means (the demonspawn unique ones) whereas others can be changed through god actions and potions of mutation.

Snake Sneak

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Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 21:31

Post Thursday, 14th April 2011, 19:50

Re: Demonspawn Mutation Feedback

dpeg wrote:On demonic guardian: active power is exactly what we not wanted. Old DS had active abilities, and I believe the passive one is much more interesting. I could imagine a "demonic void" command (as 't'ell, not 'a'bility, probably) but the basic premise is like with the other mutations: you can plan for it. If you decide to ignore it (which currently requires them to "stay here", I guess), you forfeit one of your DS powers. Personally, I have never felt the presence of a guardian to be a nuisance. I like this mutation a lot in my games.

I'm with you on this one. One of my favorite mutations, unless I happen to worship Oka.

Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Wednesday, 27th April 2011, 07:10

Re: Demonspawn Mutation Feedback

Getting Magic Mapping always feels like a waste of a slot.

I'm with the above posters - the current implementations of rN+ and rTorment feel kinda flat. It would be fun to expand them into proper facets (and giving out three pips of rN for a facet feels both kinda over powered and bland at the same time, which isn't a great combo).

With the change to Horns 3 and Antennae 3, Demonspawn can now never receive the full benefits of worshipping Chei, as they can't ponderousify enough items. Is this intentional, and if so, shouldn't Chei just stop accepting DS worshippers?
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Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 27th April 2011, 10:07

Re: Demonspawn Mutation Feedback

Then Chei also shouldn't accept Ogres, Trolls, Draconians, Spriggans, Kenku, or Felids. However, read the discussion on Chei stat boost. Also, someone suggested that Chei give his followers a speed dial ability, instead of pondering armour.
Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
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