So why are humans in the game?

[Deep Dwarf Fighter]

I mean by dev troll logic everything that is not an undead rat ninja robot mutant demon cephalid king is deemed unworthy of being a race in this game.
Heck, even the in-game description says that they are 'rather mundane'.

[dpeg]

I mean by dev troll logic everything that is not an undead rat ninja robot mutant demon cephalid king is deemed unworthy of being a race in this game.
Heck, even the in-game description says that they are 'rather mundane'.

I don't think this forum is for you. And perhaps the game neither. Find another place to annoy people.

[Deep Dwarf Fighter]

Well that escalated quickly

[duvessa]

THIS IS NOW A GORE THREAD

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The air elemental hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The air elemental misses you.
The air elemental completely misses you.
The air elemental hits you.
You die...

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You blink. The raven pecks you. The raven claws you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The raven pecks you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The raven claws you!
You die...

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You bludgeon the orb of fire!!
You destroy the orb of fire!
You hear a distant "Zot"!
The ancient lich gestures at you while chanting.
The crystal spear hits you!
You die...

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You feel much better. You feel sick. The black mamba barely misses you.
The black mamba bites you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You are more poisoned.
The black mamba poisons you! The boring beetle bites you!
You die...

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The air twists around and strikes you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The electric golem throws lightning at you.
The bolt of lightning misses the electric golem.
The bolt of lightning hits you! You resist.
You die...

[twelwe]

THIS IS NOW AL GORE THREAD

[IMG http://c://dads secret computer/My Documents/sexy pics/presidents/vice prez pics/AL gORE.JPEG]Vice Presuident Al Gore[/img]

[TeshiAlair]

ACTUALLY SERIOUS RESPONSE.

I was definitely rather sore when Mountain Dwarves and Sludge Elves were taken out of the game. But since then, I've come to realize something.

Imagine a dot, labeled "Standard." Now let's make a circle around it and label it "Slightly different." And another outside that, "Radically different." And another, labelled "Crazy bananas."

There is a lot less room on that "slightly different" line than there is on the "crazy bananas" line, so we don't want it too full, but neither do we want it completely empty.

So, we have Humans (and arguably Demigods) at standard, we have a nice collection of "slightly differents" such as Hill Orcs and Minotaurs and both flavours of Elf, which is the group that has been most whittled away over the years (and I'm hoping personally Halfling is next to go, but that's just me), and we've gathered some "radically differents" (I'd put Trolls, Spriggans, and Naga in there, for example.)

All of these groups are important! Human as a race is as a valuable component of crawl as is Octopode (or even Felid, though I will never play a freaking housecat in Crawl, I respect their existence.) Just because we don't need MORE human-like or "slightly different" races, doesn't mean the existing ones don't have value. It's just that the richest development ground is in crazy bananas land, and often those crazy ideas get reigned in and become more sane, but still excellent (I'd put gargoyles and even vine stalkers in this camp. Vine stalkers are so much freaking fun).

TL:DR: Humans are good. Developing crazy bananas races is also good. Mountain Dwarves are probably bad but I still miss them. Felids are probably good but I still hate them.

[diviton]

Have you ever played a character in crawl and early on you see an item and say "Man, that's a great item. I wish my character could use that..."

That's why humans are in the game.

[savageorange]

Affirmative action.

[dpeg]

TeshiAlair: That's a very nice way to put it. I agree completely!

Diviton: But bardings!

[TehDruid]

I seriously don't understand this kind of threads... As dpeg mentioned, I don't believe this game is for you. Most of your posts are either toxic towards the devs or plain bitching about features that are (not) implemented. If it makes you feel so negative, then don't play it. And even if it was a game you paid for, the devs don't have to do what YOU want. Learn some programming and make a fork containing all the things YOU enjoy. Simple.

[dck]

Since it hasn't been brought up yet I would like to mention humans are one of the most fun races in the game.

[pratamawirya]

Who needs gimmicks and funny mutations when the randomized dungeon is already fun enough as it is?

[Sandman25]

Since it hasn't been brought up yet I would like to mention humans are one of the most fun races in the game.

What is fun for you? Hu is the most boring species for me because it has no unique features.
Ds have random mutations, Mf/Op use deep water, Dr have breath, Na/Op have constriction, Vp is n-species in one to name a few.

[Klown]

I only play humans after a level 23 character dies in Zot so I can actually get XP for kills.

[dck]

Hu are, may I add, also one of the best designed species (competing only with Mu) and probably the one that fits the best at all in the game also.

[Sandman25]

Well, "best designed" does not necessarily mean fun, at least for me. Some players like versatility, others prefer fun mutations and abilities. I know chess is a well designed game but I prefer DCSS, the former is too boring for me

[TehDruid]

Apparently Humans are still in game so we can no longer have Deep Dwarf Fighters in the forum.

[pratamawirya]

"best designed" does not necessarily mean fun

so you like playing poorly designed races?

(this must be why people argue with you all the time...)

[Sandman25]

"best designed" does not necessarily mean fun

so you like playing poorly designed races?

(this must be why people argue with you all the time...)

I am not sure what makes you think so. "best designed does not necessarily mean fun" implies that there can be best designed species which are not fun to play. Correct, I don't like to play races which are not fun (for me) no matter whether they are poor designed or not.
But if talking about your specific question, yes, it looks like I like playing some poorly designed races because I enjoy playing all races except humans and there should be some poorly designed ones among them.

[Mankeli]

Hu are, may I add, also one of the best designed species and probably the one that fits the best at all in the game also.

Since this is already in CYC, I'd like to add that humans (as in Cornac, not Higher race) are also the best designed race in TOME 4. That's how good design humans are.

[dck]

Don't you speak ill of my humans.

[Sprucery]

Humans are the best race for Crawl players.

[Klown]

Their design was to be an average race to compare with all the new races. Not sure how they can be best designed with 1 second on design thought put into them.

[damiac]

They're the best designed race in the game? The design is lack of any design. They're the basic archetype for a race, before you go and do anything. So I'd say the crawl character may be well designed, but a human is just a crawl character, without any design apart from "average".

On the other hand, every other race is then designed off that flat archetype. So maybe you like humans, but to say they're "the best designed race" is essentially just saying you think all the races suck in crawl.

Also, Sandman, how dare you say you have fun without Dck's approval of the design of your favorite race? You're definitely the one starting arguments with people, saying terrible things like that you want to have fun. Play only humans and mummies, they're the most fun, if you have fun with any other race, you're just being a troublemaker.

And mummies are the only competition with humans for best race? Best designed as in, the race that's best suited for sucking in new players with the lack of a food clock, but being entirely unsuited for winning? How does this guy get away with being an insulting forum troll, and get absolutely no backlash for it.

[WalkerBoh]

How does this guy get away with being an insulting forum troll, and get absolutely no backlash for it.

Unfortunately by over-reacting like this, it makes you look like the troll... You really destroy any credibility you had when you do this.

Dck has a valid point with respect to humans being best designed. First, they are simple, which is a very valuable aspect of design. Second, their decisions are not limited by their racial features - their aptitudes do not encourage you to move towards any one weapon or spell class or armour type. They are flexible and diverse and well-rounded. These all seem like the mark of a very well-designed race.

Note that this does not mean they are the ONLY well-designed race. And it doesn't mean that other races aren't more fun to play, as fun is subjective and not always tied to best-designed (e.g.: some people find it fun to scum and grind).

[Magipi]

Hu are, may I add, also one of the best designed species

Is this some clever insult against developers?

[DracheReborn]

Dck has a valid point with respect to humans being best designed. First, they are simple, which is a very valuable aspect of design. Second, their decisions are not limited by their racial features - their aptitudes do not encourage you to move towards any one weapon or spell class or armour type. They are flexible and diverse and well-rounded. These all seem like the mark of a very well-designed race.

Well said.

Another way to look at it is that crawl is designed for Hu as the default species. Every other species pushes you towards one sort of playstyle or another, to varying degrees. Thus, to enjoy the full range of complexity and versatility of crawl, one would play a Hu. Praising Hu's design is in effect praising all of crawl.

[duvessa]

How does this guy get away with being an insulting forum troll, and get absolutely no backlash for it.

Here is what he has posted in this thread:

Since it hasn't been brought up yet I would like to mention humans are one of the most fun races in the game.

Hu are, may I add, also one of the best designed species (competing only with Mu) and probably the one that fits the best at all in the game also.

Don't you speak ill of my humans.

I don't think these posts are insulting at all. I suppose possibly the third one is if you both take it out of context and are very easily offended.

They're the best designed race in the game? The design is lack of any design. They're the basic archetype for a race, before you go and do anything. So I'd say the crawl character may be well designed, but a human is just a crawl character, without any design apart from "average". On the other hand, every other race is then designed off that flat archetype. So maybe you like humans, but to say they're "the best designed race" is essentially just saying you think all the races suck in crawl.

That's, um, reading an awful lot into it, don't you think? I mean, saying humans are the best-designed race does necessarily imply that every other race is worse-designed, sure. But so does saying any other race is the best-designed race!

[cerebovssquire]

They're well designed because lack of gimmicks and equal aptitudes means more choice for the player. Crawl is mostly designed to give you a lot of choices and Hu allows you to take advantage of them while a lot of races with thought out and detailed design limit these choices (e.g. DD is a very unique race with a lot of gimmicks and special abilities but it is also badly designed imo). You can't look at a race by itself, you have to look at how it relates to the rest of crawl and in that regard I feel that Hu is good.

[Hirsch I]

i like Ds, do you guys think it is well designed?

[khalil]

Hu are, may I add, also one of the best designed species (competing only with Mu) and probably the one that fits the best at all in the game also.

Have you played Mu? Ever? They don't work. Their attributes are terrible, and their gimmick is fairly meaningless.
Furthermore, their gimmick enables grinding to a certain extent, which the player is pushed towards by their atrocious attributes.

[zardo]

Humans are one of the most fun/best designed races because they're a blank slate that can end up following any strategy depending on how the game unfolds, which is sort of an idealized version of how Crawl works in general. Demigods in a way take this to another level though I personally prefer the stronger guidance of having a god and think that's one of the more interesting semi-random decisions the game presents.

I think Ds are cool too, and for similar reasons.

[Cynry]

Hu are, may I add, also one of the best designed species (competing only with Mu) and probably the one that fits the best at all in the game also.

Have you played Mu? Ever? They don't work. Their attributes are terrible, and their gimmick is fairly meaningless.
Furthermore, their gimmick enables grinding to a certain extent, which the player is pushed towards by their atrocious attributes.

They don't work ? You mean you don't like them ?
Also, meaningless gimmicks ? rF- isn't meaningless, no foodclock neither, and once you get to extended, not having to deal with mutations and torment is a pretty big deal I'd say.
About grinding, sure you can, in the first 4-7 levels of the dungeons. Once you get a god (assuming he cares about inactivity), it's not that good of an idea...

[khalil]

Hu are, may I add, also one of the best designed species (competing only with Mu) and probably the one that fits the best at all in the game also.

Have you played Mu? Ever? They don't work. Their attributes are terrible, and their gimmick is fairly meaningless.
Furthermore, their gimmick enables grinding to a certain extent, which the player is pushed towards by their atrocious attributes.

They don't work ? You mean you don't like them ?
Also, meaningless gimmicks ? rF- isn't meaningless, no foodclock neither, and once you get to extended, not having to deal with mutations and torment is a pretty big deal I'd say.
About grinding, sure you can, in the first 4-7 levels of the dungeons. Once you get a god (assuming he cares about inactivity), it's not that good of an idea...

I love mummies.
No foodclock doesn't matter because you have to try in order to end up to the point where lack of food harms you.
Mutation and torment resistance can be obtained by playing Vampire or Ghoul, neither of which have an average attribute of -2.
rF-...
Correction.
Mummies do not have any helpful gimmicks. rF- and not being able to cure confusion are meaningful, but they also make the game harder. Just like everything else about mummies.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

About grinding, sure you can, in the first 4-7 levels of the dungeons. Once you get a god (assuming he cares about inactivity), it's not that good of an idea...

Piety can be refilled. Once you are strong to handle death yaks/hydras, you can farm Lair easily, because nothing truly dangerous will ever spawn there (same goes for the Lair branches once you are strong enough for those). There is the problem of spawns stopping entirely on a level eventually, but you'll die of boredom before you run out all the levels. FR: bring back infinite runes so I have a reason to play mummy!

Demigods are the real best-designed race, because it turns out that playing Crawl without gods adds as much to the game as it removes.

[duvessa]

Scumming before lair is basically completely impossible btw. The OOD spawns are much too strong in D.

[Klown]

i like Ds, do you guys think it is well designed?

It's probably the most fun design of any species. Consistently giving you something new. Slow apts/exp but yeah. Could probably use more potential mutations, seems I get a lot of the same ones each time.
Gargoyle/Merfolk/Octopode/Tengu/Vampire are all solid as well imo.
I like the Mummy design purely out of no-need-to-tediously-eat. But dislike it balance-wise.

[Lyrick]

so we have something to balance around.

whats a +3 in axes when we dont know what +0 is, or what +3 stands up to? a standard must exist, and humans fit the bill.

and humans do have a place in fantasy, as the wart that infests and multiplies until it covers all the world in its contraptions and corruption. But ya, if you not looking for gimmicks Humans will make sure you have nothing to complain about (or praise them for). +0 is not the greatest for training, yet it doesn't seem to be that bad when you luckily find a suite of artifacts, and you can readily shift your playstyle from melee to hybrid, from dodging to blocking, from armored carapace to all-out-axe-wielding terror

[Grimm]

Tokenism.

[Sar]

Tolkienism.