Merge evocations and traps&doors

[Strongpoint]

1) Trap&doors is not a very useful skill
2) Trap&doors and evocations usually have similar aptitudes
3) Evocation is about using devices, magical devices so it's thematically close to traps and doors. And we can say that all traps\secret doors in crawl are magical by nature

We only need to find some nice name for the new merged skill, because evocations isn't good enough for this

[snow]

I don't support this change.

[Curio]

this is nor gamewise nor flavorwise.
Traps and doors are quite dry skill. True. But merging it with irrelevant skill is not a solution.

[XuaXua]

This combination does not make sense to consider.

[OneTrueFelid]

This is a bad idea. T&D, while not a skill that you'd actively attempt to get a ton of levels in, is useful and doesn't seem to need changing at all. It helps detect Zot Traps, which is useful enough to begin with. Evocations is a whole different ballpark. Don't lump the two together when they barely have anything in common.

[jejorda2]

Just call the new skill "Devices."

I think I like Awareness more as a T&D re-flavour, but someone or other said there will be no sneaky npcs stabbing the player, so there goes my main desire for awareness.

[XuaXua]

Just call the new skill "Devices."

I think I like Awareness more as a T&D re-flavour, but someone or other said there will be no sneaky npcs stabbing the player, so there goes my main desire for awareness.

Maurice needs a buff.

Adding an Awareness Skill might be a good way to create a new general effect where a character simply does not notice a monster (effectively giving the character a "?" on his tile from the perspective of a given monster).

Of course, AAAAH.

[smock]

Evocations and invocations have uncommon names. Most people seem to prefer easy to understand skill names like "ice magic" to "cryomancy". So changing the name of Evocations might garner some support.

Personally, I think that Crawl has more skills than is optimal, so I would support combining some. It suggests to me sloppy design, despite the fact that Crawl is wonderfully designed. I don't really have a great reason for my option that Crawl has too many skills, but then again most previous replies to this idea were more visceral than rooted in game play or flavor concerns. I've love to hear some ideas on this front. (For example, would anyone like to discuss combining crossbows and bows?)

[OneTrueFelid]

Bows and crossbows are two different animals entirely. Pulling a bow relies a lot on strength. A hand crank helps a lot with winding a crossbow. A crossbow, by all means, shouldn't be a repeating weapon but it is because otherwise gameplay would be insanely tedious. I'm not shooting the idea immediately just to be a jerk, I just want to point out the immediate differences between the two. Evocations and Invocations make perfect sense to me. Evoking the power of an item. Invoking the power of a separate, sentient entity. Works for me. ;3

[SinsI]

Bows and crossbows are two different animals entirely. Pulling a bow relies a lot on strength. A hand crank helps a lot with winding a crossbow. A crossbow, by all means, shouldn't be a repeating weapon but it is because otherwise gameplay would be insanely tedious. I'm not shooting the idea immediately just to be a jerk, I just want to point out the immediate differences between the two. Evocations and Invocations make perfect sense to me. Evoking the power of an item. Invoking the power of a separate, sentient entity. Works for me. ;3

Crossbows and bows have A LOT in common - you have to include wind, range and speed of target in your calculations while aiming. And requiring two different attributes is not a problem at all(it is rather an advantage and an interesting player choice).
Compare this to maces and whips - they should require two entirely different skills, with nothing common in their use and different attributes as well - but in this game they are trained together.

[OneTrueFelid]

See, I'm fine with it as long as it's unified under something like Bows & Crossbows. I guess. Ehhhh. Yeah.

[XuaXua]

Bows and crossbows are different beasts. They do cross-train though.

[smock]

At present, I believe bows are better with high dex and xbows are better with high str. If str vs dex were enough to distininguish the skills, then high dex builds would gravitate toward xbows and high dex builds toward bows. And that would be just fine with me. It would make bows and xbows a bit stronger, as finding a nice randart bow could make a xbow user more easily swap to bows.

(If this conversation continues, we should probably start a new thread.)

[mageykun]

The whole reason we don't have one inclusive skill for mele weapons, and one for ranged weapons, is to force interesting choices. When you find that awesome randart, that you don't have any skill in yet, do you mournfully set it aside, or skill up? Having slings / bows / crossbows / blowguns dependent on different skills and ammo forces players to make decisions, and adapt / cope with limited resources and differing circumstances. It also helps make sure every game doesn't play out like every other- it can force you to vary your build.

[smock]

The whole reason we don't have one inclusive skill for mele weapons, and one for ranged weapons, is to force interesting choices.

That's very true. That said, if certain weapon were made to depend more on stats, then the some skills might be combinable. It's still force interesting choices, just choiced based on str/dex rather than on a aptitute and XP allocation.

[Grimm]

Here's a minor idea for T&D: at a high level of T&D you would be able to LOCK doors. This would prevent intelligent creatures coming in after you.

[ibanix]

Do not support OP.

Locking doors (at least for X turns) is an interesting idea.