New Djinn


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Dis Charger

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Post Thursday, 6th March 2014, 21:17

New Djinn

Disclaimer: I write this because I really like the EP mechanic and thing that that single piece is worth preserving. Trying to remove some of the weirdness portions and balance more appropriately; while keeping the spirit of the idea intact.

Innate abilities:
Unlike other races Djinn belong are made of pure magic and placed firmly in the non-living holiness bracket, being neither living, nor undead. As such:
  • HP and MP are unified as essence. Djinn pay 2EP for every MP they would normally spend.
  • Hunger costs are paid in contamination and mutations will be received normally if glow is reached. [Mutations are received normally from all sources.]
  • Weak to attacks specifically designed to drain energy. Draining attacks do +50% damage; Vampiric weapons heal creature attacking Djinn for 100% of damage done. [rN--]
  • Weak to antimagic attacks and receive +75% damage from them (which is probably still less damage than they'd do if it had the normal drain MP effect).
  • Immune to Pain, Torment and Dispel Undead. [rTorm]
  • Immune to Poison. [rPois+]
  • Don't have a food clock and cannot use potions or food.
  • Cannot rot. [rRot+]
  • All Transmutations spells work as normal.
At level 7, Djinn gain the ability to become non-corporeal (Wisp form on command).

Djinni are made of 'pure magical energy' which does not by default have any elemental component. If they focus strongly enough on a single elemental school (Fire, Ice, Earth, Wind) they get an additional benefit at mastery (skill level 27). Unlike the original free boost; all of these are hard fought and only unlock in lategame. They still come with trade-offs. These are as follows:
  • Fire: rF+++, rHellfire, Permanent Fire Booster. rC-, rDrown-.
  • Ice: rC+++, AC bonus, Permanent Ice Booster. rF-. LRD Weakness.
  • Air: rElec+, EV bonus, Permanent Air Booster. rF-. Airstrike weakness.
  • Earth: Large AC bonus, Permanent Earth Booster. EV penalty. LRD Weakness.

Of all the stuff here; the mastery bonuses are what I'm most iffy on and ready to scratch away should someone say that's still too powerful. I just included it because having an extra bonus with trade-off malus for being such a good elementalist to reach level 27 in the skill seems cool.

Level Bonuses:
+1 Int or Dex every 4 levels.
+2 Magic Resistance every level (lower than humans).
Average HP/MP used for the EP calc.

Aptitudes:
Similar to mummies; Djinn are used to having all the time in the world and thus learn everything slowly. Their aptitudes are bad on most fighting and weapon skills; but poor on lighter weapons and UC; and poor to average on magical skills; except those related to the living beings, which are harder for them to relate into. They are natural Transmuters and Translocaters, but it is hard for them to take advantage of the former with their low UC apt.

Fighting: -3
Axes: -4
Bows -4
Crossbows: -3
Long Blades: -4
Maces & Flails: -3
Polearms: -4
Short Blades -2
Slings -2
Staves -3
Throwing -3
Unarmed Combat -2
Armour -3
Dodge -1
Shields -2
Stealth 1
Spellcasting 1
Invocations 0
Evocations 0
Air Magic -2
Conjurations -2
Charms -2
Earth Magic -2
Fire Magic -2
Hexes -2
Ice Magic -2
Necromancy -4
Poison Magic -3
Summonings -2
Translocations -1
Transmutations 0
Experience -2
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 6th March 2014, 21:23

Re: New Djinn

Aside from the "elemental mastery" angle, this strikes me as being very similar to "Mummy + EP", which doesn't seem different enough to be worth doing. The only significant other difference is rN-- in exchange for being able to transmute, but that seems like a pretty bad tradeoff.

Is there any particular reason to make them terrible at all weapon skills?

Tomb Titivator

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Post Thursday, 6th March 2014, 21:41

Re: New Djinn

Part of the reason I liked djinn were because they were one of two races with a fun implementation of food, and they could still drink potions and have not horrible aptitudes for everything. I don't think I would play your version since they just seem like weirder mummies. Your version would be especially weak in the early game where djinn already had lots of trouble.

I guess I'm probably not the right audience though, I was fine with djinn as they were.

Zot Zealot

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Post Thursday, 6th March 2014, 21:50

Re: New Djinn

You took away Dj's most important benefit (fire immunity), left all of the less important things, gave them weakness to two types of damage, and nerfed the hell out of almost every apt.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Thursday, 6th March 2014, 23:00

Re: New Djinn

They're basically Edit: Mummy-trolls with melee aptitudes swapped with magic aptitudes that level as slow as demigods and without any of the troll characteristics.
But it's okay because they gain an innate enhancer and some other fluff once they hit 27 in an elemental school. (While having terrible aptitudes and begging the question of how they ever got that far.)
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 6th March 2014, 23:16

Re: New Djinn

bcadren wrote:
  • Hunger costs are paid in contamination and mutations will be received normally if glow is reached. [Mutations are received normally from all sources.]
  • Weak to attacks specifically designed to drain energy. Draining attacks do +50% damage; Vampiric weapons heal creature attacking Djinn for 100% of damage done. [rN--]
  • Weak to antimagic attacks and receive +75% damage from them (which is probably still less damage than they'd do if it had the normal drain MP effect).
At level 7, Djinn gain the ability to become non-corporeal (Wisp form on command).
Djinni are made of 'pure magical energy' which does not by default have any elemental component. If they focus strongly enough on a single elemental school (Fire, Ice, Earth, Wind) they get an additional benefit at mastery (skill level 27). Unlike the original free boost; all of these are hard fought and only unlock in lategame. They still come with trade-offs. These are as follows:
  • Fire: rF+++, rHellfire, Permanent Fire Booster. rC-, rDrown-.
  • Ice: rC+++, AC bonus, Permanent Ice Booster. rF-. LRD Weakness.
  • Air: rElec+, EV bonus, Permanent Air Booster. rF-. Airstrike weakness.
  • Earth: Large AC bonus, Permanent Earth Booster. EV penalty. LRD Weakness.

bcadren wrote:Trying to remove some of the weirdness portions
ok
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Dis Charger

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 00:25

Re: New Djinn

Lasty wrote:Is there any particular reason to make them terrible at all weapon skills?


Non-corporeal being of magical mist trying to look humanoid. Being completely solid by itself is difficult from them. Though perhaps playing more on

johlstei wrote:I was fine with djinn as they were.


That's honestly me too; except I thought fire immunity out the gate with good apts at the same time was a bit overpowered/easy compared to other races.

WalkerBoh wrote:You took away Dj's most important benefit (fire immunity), left all of the less important things, gave them weakness to two types of damage, and nerfed the hell out of almost every apt.


Not true. I always thought the EP was their most important benefit myself, for the ability to use more magic early (but glass-cannon-status it causes).
Also they can mutate permanently in this version and can't drink. That's not leaving everything the same. :P
Also not a straight nerf; the apts. aren't directly related to the originals.

-------
Now that I'm done with answering comments specifically...
Perhaps playing up the shapeshifting nature of the legend more is worth exploring?
I wouldn't want to give anything as good as Tm forms by default, but other bad-forms or something race unique would be interesting. Maybe...Big, small or quadraped forms, etc.
Also, maybe I went from too overpowered (only problem I saw with Dj) to too underpowered and it needs to be somewhere in between?
And I realized since I posted this, that since I allow them to mutate, but not drink they can never have bad mutations removed without god ability...I'm not sure if I like that.
Or they need a mummy-like ability to remove some permanent EP in order to heal them.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 07:13

Re: New Djinn

I'm not sure if this is actually a good summary of the issues with djinn, but my understanding was that:
1: their gimmicks combined with certain gods made for very easy games
2: otherwise their early game was usually significantly harder then other races and their late game usually significantly easier then other races

I'm not sure that anyone ever enjoyed the glow thing, but something had to be done to tone down their late (and sometimes mid) game.

Maybe I misunderstand your proposal, but I don't see anything that address those issues. A more realistic proposal (which may still not be realistic at all) would be:
- food immunity
- rf+
- rc-
- Mana costs dependent on player level:
--- from level 1-10: 1 mana costs 1EP
--- from level 11-20: 1 mana costs 2EP
--- from level 21-27: 1 mana costs 3EP

And nothing more.

dck

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 07:39

Re: New Djinn

I don't think it's a good idea to have another race that sometimes doesn't want to gain exp, it's already awkward in the case of cats.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 07:48

Re: New Djinn

Agreed, it's awkward, but only other way I can think of to make them somewhat balanced would be to have that simplified ability sheet from my previous post and have spell costs be different then for everyone else depending on spell levels (lv1 spell=1EP, lv2 spell=3EP, lv3 spell=6EP, ...).

Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 17:43

Re: New Djinn

Baldu3 wrote:I'm not sure if this is actually a good summary of the issues with djinn, but my understanding was that:
1: their gimmicks combined with certain gods made for very easy games
2: otherwise their early game was usually significantly harder then other races and their late game usually significantly easier then other races

I'm not sure that anyone ever enjoyed the glow thing, but something had to be done to tone down their late (and sometimes mid) game.

Maybe I misunderstand your proposal, but I don't see anything that address those issues. A more realistic proposal (which may still not be realistic at all) would be:
- food immunity
- rf+
- rc-
- Mana costs dependent on player level:
--- from level 1-10: 1 mana costs 1EP
--- from level 11-20: 1 mana costs 2EP
--- from level 21-27: 1 mana costs 3EP

And nothing more.


Rather than flat out increase of manacost at certain "magical levels", i'd much rather tie it to spell level. I think it's bit silly when you level up from 10 to 11 your mana pool suddenly halves. (For example you are against 2 enemies you have 8 essence point left, You use one icicle to kill one enemy, you level up, but suddenly you don't have enough mana to kill the other enemy.

My proposal:
level 1 spell - EP cost 1
level 2 spell - EP cost 2
level 3 spell - EP cost 4
level 4 spell - EP cost 6
level 5 spell - EP cost 9
level 6 spell - EP cost 12
level 7 spell - EP cost 15
level 8 spell - EP cost 18
level 9 - EP cost 21

OR

Spell level - EP cost
1 - 1
2 - 3
3 - 5
4 - 7
5 - 9
6 - 11
7 - 13
8 - 15
9 - 17

Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 18:12

Re: New Djinn

Djinn had it's chance and failed at it. Just let it rest in peace.
Winning races: Ce, DD, DS, Dj, Dr, Fo, Gr, HO, LO, Mf, Mi, Na, Og, Tr
Winning backrounds: AK, Ar, As, Be, Cj, DK, Fi, Gl, Hu, Mo, Pr, Su, Wn

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Arrhythmia, duvessa
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 21:26

Re: New Djinn

Zammy wrote:Djinn had it's chance and failed at it. Just let it rest in peace.


Have I told everyone my proposal for "Essence Dwarves" yet?
take it easy

dck

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 21:30

Re: New Djinn

hit points and magic points merged into beard points

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and into, khalil
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Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 22:54

Re: New Djinn

Zammy wrote:Djinn had it's chance and failed at it. Just let it rest in peace.
This is a bad attitude. What if claws had abandoned the Vaults:5 layout change after the initial negative feedback? What if Gargoyles had been abandoned after the failure of the self-petrification ability? What if the rune lock was abandoned when the first version had problems? Should people stop trying to remove item destruction because bh's experimental version wasn't accepted? Just because an idea doesn't work the first time isn't reason to abandon it. Now, perhaps this particular proposal is bad, and the MP <=> HP mechanic would benefit from some distance from Dj, but that's no reason to never allow anything like Dj in the game again.
On IRC my nick is reaverb. I play online under the name reaver, though.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 23:03

Re: New Djinn

VS has the hp/mp thing (basically) and I think it has some of the same design problems that dj did (and this bothers me immensely), though from a player perspective they are not very important.

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duvessa

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 23:07

Re: New Djinn

reaver: I fully agree with what you say there. On the other hand, we have seen so many experiments with species (including new species landing in trunk) lately, that it may indeed be best to take some time. The idea of "HP and MP combined" is easy to remember, and starting afresh in a year or two might be more rewarding.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 23:21

Re: New Djinn

dpeg wrote:reaver: I fully agree with what you say there. On the other hand, we have seen so many experiments with species (including new species landing in trunk) lately, that it may indeed be best to take some time. The idea of "HP and MP combined" is easy to remember, and starting afresh in a year or two might be more rewarding.
Certainly, taking some time off there is part of what I meant by distance. I also agree about having too many species - I hope 0.15-0.16 can receive some community designed gods similar to the many species of 0.13-14.
On IRC my nick is reaverb. I play online under the name reaver, though.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 23:24

Re: New Djinn

Well in this case the "new" proposal makes no effort whatsoever to fix any of the problems with Dj, so...
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Dis Charger

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Post Sunday, 9th March 2014, 00:12

Re: New Djinn

duvessa wrote:Well in this case the "new" proposal makes no effort whatsoever to fix any of the problems with Dj, so...


I tried to fix the problems I saw in it. And probalby made them way too weak in the process...what problems did you see in them?
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

Halls Hopper

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Post Sunday, 9th March 2014, 05:43

Re: New Djinn

reaver wrote:
Zammy wrote:Djinn had it's chance and failed at it. Just let it rest in peace.
This is a bad attitude. What if claws had abandoned the Vaults:5 layout change after the initial negative feedback? What if Gargoyles had been abandoned after the failure of the self-petrification ability? What if the rune lock was abandoned when the first version had problems? Should people stop trying to remove item destruction because bh's experimental version wasn't accepted? Just because an idea doesn't work the first time isn't reason to abandon it. Now, perhaps this particular proposal is bad, and the MP <=> HP mechanic would benefit from some distance from Dj, but that's no reason to never allow anything like Dj in the game again.


Djinn was in the game a LONG time. Of course new ideas need time for tweaking them. But are you seriously comparing Djinn that was in game for ages and they still could not make it be good/balanced to gargoyles who had rather short self-petrification period before they were repaired to be an ok race.
There is no point spending infinite amount of time on something because "it might be better tomorrow".
Ideas should be abandoned at some point when it comes apparent that it will not work or just will not be accepted.
And how about them mountain dwares, eh? You think it's a good idea to ask them back because we shouldn't give up on ideas we like?
I think Djinn had enough time. And failed. Time to move on.
Winning races: Ce, DD, DS, Dj, Dr, Fo, Gr, HO, LO, Mf, Mi, Na, Og, Tr
Winning backrounds: AK, Ar, As, Be, Cj, DK, Fi, Gl, Hu, Mo, Pr, Su, Wn

Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 17:34

Re: New Djinn

Zammy wrote:
reaver wrote:
Zammy wrote:Djinn had it's chance and failed at it. Just let it rest in peace.
This is a bad attitude. What if claws had abandoned the Vaults:5 layout change after the initial negative feedback? What if Gargoyles had been abandoned after the failure of the self-petrification ability? What if the rune lock was abandoned when the first version had problems? Should people stop trying to remove item destruction because bh's experimental version wasn't accepted? Just because an idea doesn't work the first time isn't reason to abandon it. Now, perhaps this particular proposal is bad, and the MP <=> HP mechanic would benefit from some distance from Dj, but that's no reason to never allow anything like Dj in the game again.


Djinn was in the game a LONG time. Of course new ideas need time for tweaking them. But are you seriously comparing Djinn that was in game for ages and they still could not make it be good/balanced to gargoyles who had rather short self-petrification period before they were repaired to be an ok race.
There is no point spending infinite amount of time on something because "it might be better tomorrow".
Ideas should be abandoned at some point when it comes apparent that it will not work or just will not be accepted.
And how about them mountain dwares, eh? You think it's a good idea to ask them back because we shouldn't give up on ideas we like?
I think Djinn had enough time. And failed. Time to move on.



Meh, I liked them. If this was about removing weirdness parts of the game, I think a number of people would agree if I said that Felids should have gone away first. That said, I don't quite understand what was wrong with the way Djinn were. as I never played one past maybe the Lair, I can't say I'm fully aware of their problems either, but as a player, the removal does feel abrupt.
The above post is for entertainment purposes only. If you think anything I ever say is backed by fact, or if you cite things I've said in any argument ever, you are insane.

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