Blades Runner
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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Blades Runner
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Vaults Vanquisher
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Dungeon Master
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and into wrote:How about:
1.) All scrolls ID upon reading.
2.) Scrolls of curse foo never generate randomly.
3.) For Ash, praying over remove curse scrolls destroys them, and replaces them with scrolls of curse foo. However, more than one scroll of curse foo can be generated from each scroll of remove curse, such that the average number of curse scrolls available to Ash worshipers evens out to the same as it is now. Exactly how many and what type of curse scroll is generated from sacrificing the ?remove curse will still be randomized.
Does that cover everything?
Dungeon Master
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Mines Malingerer
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Swamp Slogger
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Barkeep
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dpeg wrote:I should mention that Crawl's use of curses -- only sticky items -- is far from ideal. There are plans to address that (and again, I believe that something more interesting than removal is possible), but that's off-topic and far away.
Slime Squisher
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Mattchew wrote:Only recently have I even started to consider how I might save that first scroll of blinking.
If you remove the scroll ID game that will have ripple effects on the potion ID game also. Do people want to remove that too?
At least for me, not knowing all the scrolls is interesting even into the later game, because there is a sense of anticipation about whether this might finally be that scroll of acquirement.
Dis Charger
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Dungeon Master
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:And honestly, yes I'd like to remove [the scroll id game], Crawl's ID game is incredibly simplistic and only really matters up until about midway through D3. If it were more involved and interesting I would want to save it, but that would necessarily entail spoilery features and ancillary methods of identification, which go against Crawl's design.
Swamp Slogger
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Mattchew wrote:Only recently have I even started to consider how I might save that first scroll of blinking.
The thing is that the way things currently work, the answer to that is "you don't". Every ID scroll goes to potions - because they are stronger and thus more valuable than scrolls - and Crawl has tried to remove all ancillary forms of identification. That leaves two options, mass scroll reading to identify them, or leaving them on the Temple steps until you eventually have excess ID scrolls. Since the latter option means you will spend more time with Scroll of Life-Saving-er-I-mean-"blinking" unidentified, AND means you will have to do even more tedious running back and forth than usual, it is invariably best to just waste that one scroll so you can use the others when you need them.
TheDefiniteArticle wrote:It will not because the ID game already revolves entirely around potions with all other items essentially getting the table scraps when you happen to have more ID scrolls than potions.If you remove the scroll ID game that will have ripple effects on the potion ID game also. Do people want to remove that too?
TheDefiniteArticle wrote:And honestly, yes I'd like to remove it, Crawl's ID game is incredibly simplistic and only really matters up until about midway through D3. If it were more involved and interesting I would want to save it, but that would necessarily entail spoilery features and ancillary methods of identification, which go against Crawl's design.At least for me, not knowing all the scrolls is interesting even into the later game, because there is a sense of anticipation about whether this might finally be that scroll of acquirement.
That's far and away the worst part about current ID game. Brand weapon and holy word are incredibly rare, such that playing through an entire game and seeing only one isn't even unusual. But using a scroll of identify to find them is really dumb and wasteful unless you have a truckload of identify scrolls. Instead you invariably identify them either by reading (which wastes your only holy word scroll) or by process of elimination (which is dumb and spoilery and they should auto-id in this case). Adding item destruction to the mix, and I find myself questioning why these scrolls even exist if making good use of them is going to continue being next to impossible.
Slime Squisher
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dpeg wrote:I have absolutely no clue how you get to make statements like this. Why does an involved and interesting id game have to include spoilery features? In my opinion, that's just a self-fulfilling prophecy. The point about spoilers is moot anyway -- it is always our decision whether something relies on outside information or not.TheDefiniteArticle wrote:And honestly, yes I'd like to remove [the scroll id game], Crawl's ID game is incredibly simplistic and only really matters up until about midway through D3. If it were more involved and interesting I would want to save it, but that would necessarily entail spoilery features and ancillary methods of identification, which go against Crawl's design.
If I was better it might bug me more, but it just feels like part of the game right now.
Nearly every game I use scrolls to identify jewelry before potions. Maybe faulty play, but I do it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Blades Runner
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TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Nearly every game I use scrolls to identify jewelry before potions. Maybe faulty play, but I do it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
It is objectively awful play. Using a scroll to identify a ring of fire resistance is a waste of a scroll because A) you can just drop your scrolls and step in a flame cloud to test (or some other dumb spoilery thing)
But my question is why do you do that? Either you're playing poorly due to a lack of information (because identification is inherently spoiler-ific) or you know this stuff already and you are playing poorly deliberately. I ask this because if players are knowingly choosing to lower their chances of winning, there is a serious design problem.
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