Monster digging breaks vaults

[duvessa]

A huge number of vaults designed before 0.12 have large numbers of OOD monsters behind rock walls (usually translucent). The idea is that players can dig them out if they think the loot inside is worth fighting said monsters. A good example is minmay_five_octagons.
Unfortunately these vaults no longer work in D, Depths, or Vaults (which almost all of them are exclusive to), because someone thought it was a good idea to give dig to some really common monsters. Now half the time when you encounter one of these vaults, a deep troll earth mage will immediately bust it open or some monster inside will pick up a wand of digging. In old versions the chance of such a vault generating a boring beetle or appropriate shapeshifter was so low that it was acceptable (and virtually none can get a cacodemon), but deep troll earth magi are extremely common. So 5 titans get released into the open on D:12 or whatever without the player having any say in it.

Short version: Either A. deep troll earth magi need to lose dig and monsters need to stop using the wand, or B. a large number of vaults (probably 100+) have to be removed or heavily modified.

[Psiweapon]

Wow never encountered this but it mus suck balls big time

[galehar]

Or maybe they could not use it on vault walls? There's a map marker on all vault cells.

[duvessa]

I think if a monster spell can't work properly without effectively introducing 3 new terrain types, maybe it isn't a great monster spell. That would also be ridiculously spoilery unless you also both indicate to the player which cells are vault cells, and indicate to the player that monsters won't use dig on vault cells. I suppose if you do those two things it would be okay.
(There are also some vaults that monsters are actually supposed to dig, like those terrible boring beetle ones and that hangedman vault with the eye of devastation, but those wouldn't exactly be a huge loss...)

[dck]

minmay_octo_star

son of a gun

[reaver]

Or maybe they could not use it on vault walls? There's a map marker on all vault cells.

I don't like the idea of monsters being unable to dig through decor vaults. I would also suggest using whether the monster is on a no_rtele_into tile to determine if they should dig. Generally, if the monster shouldn't be able to dig out of their cell than it also has no_rtele_into.

(Of course this is also a spoiler, but I don't think it's a big deal if suddenly monsters aren't digging out of places where the monsters obviously aren't suppose to dig out of.)

[johlstei]

Or maybe they could not use it on vault walls? There's a map marker on all vault cells.

I don't like the idea of monsters being unable to dig through decor vaults. I would also suggest using whether the monster is on a no_rtele_into tile to determine if they should dig. Generally, if the monster shouldn't be able to dig out of their cell than it also has no_rtele_into.

(Of course this is also a spoiler, but I don't think it's a big deal if suddenly monsters aren't digging out of places where the monsters obviously aren't suppose to dig out of.)

That's not quite enough since monsters can also dig in to them, which I think is the bigger problem. You could prevent monsters from digging if their dig would hit a no_rtele_into square, but that leads to gamey stuff like purposely fighting near vault walls to prevent monster digging.

[galehar]

I would also suggest using whether the monster is on a no_rtele_into tile to determine if they should dig.

That sounds better yeah.

That's not quite enough since monsters can also dig in to them, which I think is the bigger problem.

I don't think it's the bigger problem. It's limited to deep troll earth magi spawn range, and also much less likely to happen. And easier to avoid too.

[Tiber]

To be honest, monsters digging into vaults seems like perfectly good emergent behavior to me, since players can try to use it to their advantage, or it can cause a crisis for the player. I think it would be fine if monsters didn't patrol into the area, but I think it should be fair game having monsters dig into these vaults when going after the player.

[crate]

monsters digging into vaults that have an angel on d:5 is not a problem at all nope

[claws]

B. a large number of vaults (probably 100+) have to be [...] heavily modified.

I'll get right on it. I can already think of a few uses of stone and transparent stone, a few more of runed doors, and the aforementioned no_rtele_into digging clause would deal well with others.

(That's a very exaggerated number, by the way.)

[Lasty]

How about adding syntax to the vault monster engine that allows you to specify non-digging monsters?

[crate]

Well you also need to specify non-digging monsters on the rest of the level. Which basically means removing monster dig.

[johlstei]

That's not quite enough since monsters can also dig in to them, which I think is the bigger problem.

I don't think it's the bigger problem. It's limited to deep troll earth magi spawn range, and also much less likely to happen. And easier to avoid too.

Yeah you're right, I guess I figured digging monsters wouldn't spawn inside the vaults too often, but it sounds like that is the actual complaint.

[Galefury]

Boring beetles can dig too, and they do it even when the player is not around.

Still I think monsters digging themselves out of vaults is a bigger problem.

[evilmike]

What if monsters with the dig spell just cast it when in view of the player? The point of the spell on deep trolls was to use it to open/widen paths to the player, not to carve up the level as soon as they wake up. This is more of an AI thing, the dig spell didn't always behave this way (although, it was also didn't get cast at all for quite a while too).

[Galefury]

Isn't dig is also used by trolls to cut corners? Sometimes using it out of view is interesting. Random digging while wandering of course isn't.

[Tiber]

Which I why you just make them use it only while chasing the player.

[duvessa]

What if monsters with the dig spell just cast it when in view of the player?

Most of the time when one digs open a vault, it's in LOS anyway - translucent walls, remember. In fact right now you can often prevent vaults from getting dug open if you put exclusions on the translucent walls fast enough, but this is still spoilery, requires you to explore really slowly, and completely defeats the point of the vaults designed that way.

Which I why you just make them use it only while chasing the player.

They start "chasing the player" the instant they notice the player...I'm pretty sure this is already true.

[duvessa]

Also, has everyone else here forgotten that cacodemons exist? I deliberately didn't propose removing monster dig entirely. That monster can keep it, because it virtually never generates in the same place as one of these vaults. It just needs to not be on monsters in Dungeon and Depths.

[dck]

Cacos happen in depths in those new and really annoying pan/hell vaults that show up basically every game.

[duvessa]

Cacos happen in depths in those new and really annoying pan/hell vaults that show up basically every game.

Fortunately, much like matter, it is quite rare for two vaults to occupy the same space at the same time, so those cacodemons are unlikely to cause this problem.

[duvessa]

I went ahead and made a list of Dungeon/Depths vaults that monster digging seems to break frequently.

  Code:

minmay_opposing_rooms
hangedman_arrow_trap
hangedman_cross_veins
hangedman_box_tower
minmay_spiral_squares
minmay_five_octagons
minmay_imperfect_grid
minmay_quarter_circles
minmay_ornate_pinched
minmay_quantized_circle
minmay_eight_partial_circles
minmay_blocking_statues
minmay_four_inscribed_fans
minmay_concentric_multi
minmay_diamond_stairs
minmay_octo_star
minmay_central_circle
minmay_bad_star
minmay_tri_box
minmay_textured_paths
minmay_distorted_concentric_squares
minmay_containers
minmay_crescents
minmay_octagon_city
little_maze_vault
four-leaf_vault
minmay_expanding_squares
minmay_three_patterns
grunt_twisty_corner
minmay_acid_items
minislime_mu
minmay_hollow_rounded_squares (what is even the point of runed doors if monsters can just dig through the walls...)
evilmike_bad_box
minmay_multi_spiral
minivault_12
lemuel_angel_altar

[zardo]

I'm just gonna say that I think Deep Troll EE (or the combined effect of the current deep troll packs) is one of the better new monsters in a while and preserving its ability to expose the player is desirable if possible.

[Leafsnail]

How about just turning them into unnaturally hard rock + runed door vaults? I don't think a zap from a digging wand is going to be a particularly scarce resource by Depths anyway.

[duvessa]

Because when vault makers use rock walls it's usually because they wanted players to be able to dig them. By contrast these 0.4 and 0.11 vault makers could not possibly have foreseen that later versions would allow both an extremely common late-game monster and any early item-using monster to destroy every rock wall the player goes near.

[XuaXua]

You could prevent monsters from digging if their dig would hit a no_rtele_into square, but that leads to gamey stuff like purposely fighting near vault walls to prevent monster digging.

Not if you allow it to be dug if the square is within radius X of the player's current position.

[Arrhythmia]

Not if you allow it to be dug if the square is within radius X of the player's current position.

I don't think "monsters are using dig far, far away from the player" is minmay's problem with this.

[duvessa]

gamey stuff like purposely fighting near vault walls to prevent monster digging.

Do you consider fighting near stone/metal/crystal walls and stairs to be gamey?

[johlstei]

gamey stuff like purposely fighting near vault walls to prevent monster digging.

Do you consider fighting near stone/metal/crystal walls and stairs to be gamey?

Nah not really. That's also explicitly visible but you are right, just not a thing I had thought to do.