This is what's wrong with Rune Lock

[rebthor]

Granted, I'm in .13 and from what I understand, the uniques list has been changed for the branches. Nonetheless, between the unfavorable terrain in the branches, your expected consumables and the comparative danger level of the dungeon and the power level of a GrMo, you'd have to be extremely good to be able to rune lock consistently. You need the XP from clearing floors but when half of each floor is covered with dangerous uniques, good luck getting enough XP to make it past the rune vault.

Shoals:2 Louise, Polyphemus
Shoals:3 exclusion: Roxanne, Roxanne, Rupert
Spider:2 Kirke, Snorg
Spider:4 Arachne, Norris

BTW, this doesn't even include some other "dangerous" uniques that I already took out which might have been difficult for others.

Nikola (Shoals:1)
Donald (Spider:1)

Full morgue, in case you think I don't know how to build a character. And yes, I know the armour need to be changed.

[Tiktacy]

I think I've said he phrase "rune lock would work if you removed all the uniques to make it more insistent" about 7 or 8 times. Seriously, dev team, Nikola does it belong in shaols, and Louise does not belong in swamp. Don't even get me started on mennas in snake pits...

[Sandman25]

It looks like many middle/late game uniques should be changed. For example

Spoiler: show

NAME: uniq_agnes
DEPTH: D:14-22, Elf, Swamp, Snake, Shoals, Spider, Vaults:1-4, Crypt:1-3, Forest:1-3, Blade, Tomb:1

implies that Swamp, Snake, Shoals, Spider are in the same category as D14-D22.

Other examples:

Spoiler: show

NAME: uniq_frances
DEPTH: D:17-, Elf:2-, Swamp:2-, Snake:2-, Shoals:2-, Spider:2-, Vaults, Crypt, Forest, Blade, Tomb
NAME: uniq_jorgrun
DEPTH: D:17-, Elf:2-, Swamp:2-, Snake:2-, Shoals:2-, Spider:2-, Vaults, Crypt, Forest, Blade, Tomb

[nago]

The issue with unique excessively dangerous uniques (e.g. mennas) has already been resolved

f5560fb | David Ploog | 2013-11-02 03:42:55 +0100

Exclude certain uniques from Swamp/Snake/Shoals/Spider ends.
This addressed precisely which could only appear on the last level:
Boris, Frederick, Jory, Margery, Mennas, Sojobo, Xtahua.

In the op list, I can say that Louise, Roxanne, Snorg, Norris and probably Kirke too can appear around D:15ish,Ruper can surely even appear in Lair. Therefore, there isn't differences in meeting them there on in Lairs' branches (for most of those uniques, the terrain is a problem as much as for the character, so you are actually advantaged to fight them in place like Shoal or Spider) -

[rebthor]

The issue with unique excessively dangerous uniques (e.g. mennas) has already been resolved

f5560fb | David Ploog | 2013-11-02 03:42:55 +0100

Exclude certain uniques from Swamp/Snake/Shoals/Spider ends.
This addressed precisely which could only appear on the last level:
Boris, Frederick, Jory, Margery, Mennas, Sojobo, Xtahua.

In the op list, I can say that Louise, Roxanne, Snorg, Norris and probably Kirke too can appear around D:15ish,Ruper can surely even appear in Lair. Therefore, there isn't differences in meeting them there on in Lairs' branches (for most of those uniques, the terrain is a problem as much as for the character, so you are actually advantaged to fight them in place like Shoal or Spider) -

Actually, the terrain is probably better in the dungeon for all of them, certainly spider is not advantageous for any of them. Shoals only is because I have permaflight. And the other big difference is that if one of them shows on a floor, or more likely many of them because the way the unique placement code seems to work, you can easily go to the next dungeon floor. When stuff like the above happens with runelock, you can easily end up in a situation where you can't go deeper in the branch because there's nowhere to go and you can't clear the floor(s) because of the uniques. Good luck progressing then.

[Kate]

If you think you can't kill those uniques with Fedhas and those items I'm not really sure what to suggest.

[Sandman25]

If you think you can't kill those uniques with Fedhas and all those items I'm not really sure what to suggest.

The problem is not related to the character.

NAME: uniq_mara
DEPTH: D:18-25, Elf:$, Swamp:3-, Snake:3-, Shoals:3-, Spider:3-, Vaults:2-, Crypt, Forest, Blade, Tomb

NAME: uniq_norris
DEPTH: D:17-19, Elf:2-, Swamp:2-, Snake:2-, Shoals:2-, Spider:2-, Vaults:1-3
: place_unique(_G, "Norris")

NAME: uniq_saint_roka
DEPTH: Orc:$, D:17-, Elf:2-, Swamp:2-, Snake:2-, Shoals:2-, Vaults, Crypt, Forest, Blade, Tomb
: place_unique(_G, "Saint Roka band")

NAME: uniq_wiglaf
DEPTH: D:17-, Elf:2-, Swamp:2-, Snake:2-, Shoals:2-, Spider:2-, Vaults, Crypt, Forest, Blade, Tomb
: place_unique(_G, "Wiglaf")

What to do if Mara and Saint Roka are in Shoals 3, Wiglaf and Norris are in Spider 2?
These uniques cannot be generated in D15-16, that's two extra floors of XP player misses before meeting the uniques.

[dpeg]

I think I've said he phrase "rune lock would work if you removed all the uniques to make it more insistent" about 7 or 8 times. Seriously, dev team, Nikola does it belong in shaols, and Louise does not belong in swamp. Don't even get me started on mennas in snake pits...

Seriously, Tiktacy, do you want to give decent feedback or whine a bit? Mennas has been removed from Lair subbranches right after the lock was pushed. What about Nikola in Shoals and Louise in Swamp? These are of a many uniques with D:14-19, Elf, Swamp, Spider, Shoals, Snake, Elf, Vaults:1-3 set.

[ontoclasm]

What to do if Mara and Saint Roka are in Shoals 3, Wiglaf and Norris are in Spider 2?

Maybe avoid them? Or use consumables? Or skip the floor?

Oh dang, I forgot, you have to kill literally every monster you find using nothing but tab. Hmm...

[Tiktacy]

I think I've said he phrase "rune lock would work if you removed all the uniques to make it more insistent" about 7 or 8 times. Seriously, dev team, Nikola does it belong in shaols, and Louise does not belong in swamp. Don't even get me started on mennas in snake pits...

Seriously, Tiktacy, do you want to give decent feedback or whine a bit? Mennas has been removed from Lair subbranches right after the lock was pushed. What about Nikola in Shoals and Louise in Swamp? These are of a many uniques with D:14-19, Elf, Swamp, Spider, Shoals, Snake, Elf, Vaults:1-3 set.

Ok sorry... The only one I really have a problem with ATM is Nikola because of how suicidal fighting him is without rElec.

rElec can be hard to come by, and even more so with less dungeon space. But I guess that isn't too much of a problem since you can always do the other branch...

[Sandman25]

What to do if Mara and Saint Roka are in Shoals 3, Wiglaf and Norris are in Spider 2?

Maybe avoid them? Or use consumables? Or skip the floor?

Oh dang, I forgot, you have to kill literally every monster you find using nothing but tab. Hmm...

Yes, those are good ideas and it usually works. But isn't it a good idea to change those uniques too? D18 and Swamp 3 (for Mara) is not in the same category, it probably was in 0.13 but now we have rune lock. Boris was removed from Lair branches but at least you could silence him and didn't need to escape from your clone while misled.

[nago]

???
What changes if Mara is on D:18 without runelock or Swamp:3 with runelock?

In 0.13, your clearing order should be something like D:13ish -> Lair -> Orc -> D:20ish -> ... - at least, the highest percentage of winning player do so, and probably 100% of best ones.
In 0.14, it must be D:13ish -> Lair -> Orc -> 1 or 2 Lair Branches -> D:20ish -> ...

So, what's the difference? Please notice you can run from her as much in Swamp as D (ok, in swamp is a bit more difficult due to water, but still possible).

[BlackSheep]

Presumably the difference is that you could go back and do Lair branches if one or more nasty uniques blocked progress in D.

I'm pretty unswayed by this argument, though. Very few uniques present an insurmountable obstacle, and those that really are unbeatable can be avoided. A higher value may need to be placed on key consumables, but that seems like an ok effect to me.

[rebthor]

Presumably the difference is that you could go back and do Lair branches if one or more nasty uniques blocked progress in D.

I'm pretty unswayed by this argument, though. Very few uniques present an insurmountable obstacle, and those that really are unbeatable can be avoided. A higher value may need to be placed on key consumables, but that seems like an ok effect to me.

It's more that if you lose a floor or two of experience in the dungeon the way it is currently, it's no big deal. If you lose a floor or two of experience without being able to go past wherever, it starts to become a big deal. Right now it would be pretty suicidal to fight Loiuse or Kirke and that's with me getting lucky and getting an MR boost from a potion of beneficial mutation. As it is, I spent 1 extra turn in Loiuse's and had a short little jaunt to the Abyss.

@MarvinPA - I literally just picked up that potion of speed and the healing potions and the agility potions on D:14 and two of the 3 wand of cold came from an Ice Cave that I did after running into all my buds and the surrounding floor on D:12-D:14. As was the wand of fire IIRC although I may have had that unIded and picked it up in shoals.

So yeah, my bad that I made the game harder for myself by going into the branches prior to clearing all the way down to D:14.

[nago]

You can usually still explore like 80% of floor quite safely, even with a dangerous foe or two wandering around - it's enough to not make insane noise and not rest where a battle took place.
And personally I've already took 2 runes with a char (HOMo, ok it's quite strong combo) and one with FoFi just diving to the last floor of branches (without rpois btw) and I still feel like there's no need at all to get the extra experience those 4 (8) floors could give.
No idea how this thing is affecting "mage" char, though.

[BlackSheep]

So yeah, my bad that I made the game harder for myself by going into the branches prior to clearing all the way down to D:14.

So you're saying you ran into some troublesome enemies, explored elsewhere for a while, and found some consumables that might help?

[duvessa]

implies that Swamp, Snake, Shoals, Spider are in the same category as D14-D22.

Well that's because they are. Hopefully if the rune lock stays then d:14-22 will be made a lot harder; currently I'd never want to continue playing after getting the rune, for the same reason I wouldn't care to do Lair if I've already cleared Zot.

[reaver]

Hopefully if the rune lock stays then d:14-22 will be made a lot harder; currently I'd never want to continue playing after getting the rune, for the same reason I wouldn't care to do Lair if I've already cleared Zot.

Don't worry, this has already been done in a branch. It isn't in Trunk yet because it breaks save compatibility and the devs are taking advantage for that for internal code clean-up.

On the main topic: rebthor, You've already proven you can bypass levels with multiple dangerous uniques, and you already have Swiftness online to run away. There shouldn't be any problem getting down to the rune level on either branch. I'm pretty sure you can do something like this: clear out all but the rune hut of Shoals:5, build an oklob fort outside, cast swiftness, quaff Brilliance and Haste, read !Tele, open the door, maybe use the fan of gales, cast apportation on the rune once or twice, and then run away/quaff Heal wounds if there's still time on the Tele clock. Even if that exact sequence wouldn't work or gets disrupted, there's plenty of other options that should eventually lead to the rune. This kind of challenge is part of what makes Crawl fun, and this scenario is probably more an argument for the rune lock than against it.

[crate]

The weird thing about unique placement to me is that there are a lot of uniques who can generate on, e.g. d:14-d:19 (plus various lair branch floors).

One of those floors is not like the others.

[IronJelly]

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding what "rune lock" is. This is referring to the action of removing certain uniques from generating on the floors with the runes?

[Sandman25]

  Code:

Rune lock.

You need a rune to go to D:15. Downstairs of D:14 could be recoloured or replaced by a portal (maybe more consistent with D:27 zot portal).


[njvack]

@MarvinPA - I literally just picked up that potion of speed and the healing potions and the agility potions on D:14 and two of the 3 wand of cold came from an Ice Cave that I did after running into all my buds and the surrounding floor on D:12-D:14.

That stuff is great, but I was thinking more about the 20+ fruit you're camping on.

[MDvedh]

Shouldn't we remove all uniques because of rune lock?
Sigmund can appear as early ad D:3 (or 2?), and I can't take him down with every character I could imagine so I can't get my rune because I can't go to another branch.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Shouldn't we remove all uniques because of rune lock?
Sigmund can appear as early ad D:3 (or 2?), and I can't take him down with every character I could imagine so I can't get my rune because I can't go to another branch.

Sigmund is A) easily avoidable, and B) easily defeatable with a little luck in consumables. He's literally just an orc wizard with a bigger HP bar. Louise on the other hand can kill you from anywhere in LOS in one turn. Ilsuiw has a pack of extremely powerful monsters all of which are much faster than a normal speed player.

Anyway the real problem with runelock is this: Previously, I would just run around doing whichever levels were available and comfortable until I was strong enough to be comfortable going for the rune. I almost never did that silly thing of clearing Shoals1-4 and then leaving Shoals5 until much later; now I feel obligated to do precisely that, in order to scrounge up as much XP as possible before entering the rune levels. It has very effectively sucked all the fun out of the entire mid-game.

Not to mention I think it is incredibly awful that Lair is mandatory.

[BlackSheep]

Not to mention I think it is incredibly awful that Lair is mandatory.

An ability to circumvent the lock is being developed. It just won't be a shaft on D:14 like it briefly was.

[MDvedh]

EIlsuiw is easily avoidable
Louise is easily avoidable
Nikola is easily avoidable
Mara is easily avoidable

The only unique i dont think is easily avoidable is Mennas. He can't spawn in lair branches anymore. What's problem?

[I want to believe]

EIlsuiw is easily avoidable
Louise is easily avoidable
Nikola is easily avoidable
Mara is easily avoidable

The only unique i dont think is easily avoidable is Mennas. He can't spawn in lair branches anymore. What's problem?

Finally! In 0.13 I was playing a game as rune lock, and Mennas was the only thing stopping me from getting the shoals rune.

[Sandman25]

EIlsuiw is easily avoidable
Louise is easily avoidable
Nikola is easily avoidable
Mara is easily avoidable

The only unique i dont think is easily avoidable is Mennas. He can't spawn in lair branches anymore. What's problem?

Louise has Banishment.
Also it looks like you never died while petrified after teleport had landed you still in LoS of Jorgrun.

[BlackSheep]

There are other escape methods besides teleportation.

[Sandman25]

There are other escape methods besides teleportation.

Usually I don't have enough ?Blink for every unique I have to escape from.

[BlackSheep]

There's also walking.

[rebthor]

Shouldn't we remove all uniques because of rune lock?
Sigmund can appear as early ad D:3 (or 2?), and I can't take him down with every character I could imagine so I can't get my rune because I can't go to another branch.

Sigmund is A) easily avoidable, and B) easily defeatable with a little luck in consumables. He's literally just an orc wizard with a bigger HP bar. Louise on the other hand can kill you from anywhere in LOS in one turn. Ilsuiw has a pack of extremely powerful monsters all of which are much faster than a normal speed player.

Anyway the real problem with runelock is this: Previously, I would just run around doing whichever levels were available and comfortable until I was strong enough to be comfortable going for the rune. I almost never did that silly thing of clearing Shoals1-4 and then leaving Shoals5 until much later; now I feel obligated to do precisely that, in order to scrounge up as much XP as possible before entering the rune levels. It has very effectively sucked all the fun out of the entire mid-game.

Not to mention I think it is incredibly awful that Lair is mandatory.

Thank you, you said my point but more elegantly.

[Sandman25]

There's also walking.

I didn't know it helps vs uniques with Banishment, Petrification, Mislead, Blink and Haste

On a more serious note, going down into unexplored floor is not safe because there is a decent chance that the unqiue you left behind will be here when you return after retreating from another dangerous unique in that floor.

[dck]

but it does, against every single one of those uniques you mentioned.
summon corner helps as well.

[Sandman25]

but it does, against every single one of those uniques you mentioned.
summon corner helps as well.

Sorry, my experience is different. Maybe I was unlucky but I couldn't walk away in Dungeon after I had been banished

[johlstei]

Banishment is hardly a death sentence at XL:16, which is about where I end up when doing the lair branches. Are you playing a character who isn't "online" at that point?

[Sandman25]

Banishment is hardly a death sentence at XL:16, which is about where I end up when doing the lair branches. Are you playing a character who isn't "online" at that point?

Nobody says banishment is a death sentence, but it does not increase chance to win either. To me it's like saying Nikola with Lightning Bolt (3d22) is not a big deal because smart player avoids doublezap and has at least 67 HP.

[MDvedh]

Louise has Banishment.
Also it looks like you never died while petrified after teleport had landed you still in LoS of Jorgrun.

And Norris (or Rupert, not sure who is who actually) may instaparalyse you when you take downstairs and pack of yaks and black mamba will beat the shit out of you at some level of lair. Still we shouldn't remove or tweak Norris (or Rupert).

[tompliss]

Nobody says banishment is a death sentence, but it does not increase chance to win either.

Well, it does increase your XP and give you loot, so ...