Improving Pan and the Hells

[and into]

After reading a thread discussing extended endgame in advice, I felt there was a lot of dissatisfaction with how Pan and the four Hells play. (See thread here: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9512.)

In my opinion, Abyss has been very greatly improved in terms of its structure, and all that is left is to differentiate the monsters more, and banish most demons from the Abyss, and there is already a thread discussing that here: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9360.

But, I wanted to start a separate discussion here in GDD specifically geared toward how to improve the Hells and Pan. Here's some of my ideas to get things rolling:


———The Hells———

1.) Hell effects reform
Goal: Make Hell effects dangerous rather than tedious. This means less frequent, but more meaningful, with uninteresting or unbalanced effects simply being removed, with prejudice.

-- Certain effects, like paralysis, freezing cloud, sticky flame, draining, and tormet should simply be removed—either potentially unbalanced (paralysis), or extremely boring.
-- Hell effects occur less frequently in general, but tend to be more dangerous compared to now; also they *intensify* in danger level as one approaches the seventh level, starting out fairly mild but becoming quite nasty by level 6. Level 7 can either be the worst, or a slight drop off back to moderate levels (as there are other dangers on seventh level, obviously)
-- Effects that are not removed should be divided into two groups:
1.) create danger: only happens at low tension
2.) intensify danger: only happens when tension is already at least moderate
-- Good examples of creating danger: random sudden teleport (not subject to cTele—no cheating it!); insta-shaft down one level (shouldn't happen on level 6 for obvious reasons); spawn difficult demons (not popcorn); receive "Mark" status
-- Good examples of intensifying danger: slow; dispel magic effects (won't happen when flying over water/lava); stasis; short duration (3 or 4 turn) silence centered on player; spawn silent specter; spawn moth of suppression; spawn eyes of draining; petrification; temporary blindness (cannot see any enemies except adjacent to you, but they can still see you!)—this should only last for maybe six or seven turns


2.) Better Differentiate the 4 Hells
Goal: Further distinguish between the "feel" of each branch of Hell

-- Each Hell gets an additional global effect that becomes more pronounced as one descends. Also, alter layout patterns in some of the Hells to better set them apart. Some ideas:

Tartarus: "Demonic Haze" 1, 2, or 3 squares at edge of LOS become "hazy"—although you can make out what enemies are there, you cannot target them. They can target you, however. Layout remains as it is now.

Dis: Make Dis more maze-like. The iron walls can shuffle around behind you, blocking retreat. In addition, as one nears level 7, a magic dampening field causes spell failure rates of conjurations and translocations spells to rise. (However, miscast effects caused by this dampening field are negated, you just fail the spell, lose a turn, and lose whatever mana cost of spell is.) On sixth level the average length of all charms spells is cut in half, on seventh level, by 75 percent.

Gehenna: Not sure. Perhaps a failure rate for scrolls, due to the heat. But something else is probably needed. Layout: Narrow corridors that open into cavernous spaces. Occasional cave-ins may occur, blocking off paths unexpectedly.

Cocytus: Not sure. Perhaps a failure rate for potions, due to the cold. But something else is probably needed. Levels 1 to 3 should be more open, but the middle levels are like a long ice cave. Level 7 opens back up onto the underground lake.


——— Pan ———
Goal: Break up the tedium. Best way to do that is with more themed levels, in my opinion. Also, perhaps, themed effects that randomly generate on regular (non-theme, non-rune) Pan levels.

-- [EDIT] Likelihood of Ziggurat spawning should increase if you have visited all four realms of the unique Pan Lords (whether you got the runes or not)
-- The domains belonging to Cerebov and the like, remain. They are already special enough. BUT we should have more things like the holy pan level. If around a third [edit: or less? a fourth? a fifth?] of all pan levels were theme levels, rune levels, or special effect levels, it would go a very very long way to making Pan less tedious. Theme levels shouldn't repeat, but if you trawl Pan long enough that you run out of the theme levels, that's fine.
-- Theme levels generally should have some thing in place to make you spend at least some time there. Example: Loot vault, portals out are "locked" until killing the resident pan lord, all three portals spawn in one place so they are more difficult to find
-- Level-wide effects would be relatively easy to implement, I'd imagine, but the theme levels would be more intensive to design.


1.) Some ideas for level-wide effects:

(You get a warning when one of these is triggered, upon entering the level. These effects only generate on random levels, not themed levels or rune levels)
-- God Wrath: "You have entered one of the realms under Trog's dominion. You must face his wrath!" Fairly frequent wrath effects while on level. You are immune if the god rolled is the one you worship. Some gods (the good ones, in particular) shouldn't be included in this.
-- Dead Silent: "An eerie quiet falls over this realm." Fields of silence randomly spawn, and quickly dissipate, throughout the level
-- Temporal Flux: "You feel unstuck in time." Time is experienced very differently in this realm. You and your enemies speed up and slow down at random.
-- Identity Crisis: "You feel the demons in this level are unreliable." All enemies on this level polymorph at regular intervals.
-- Marked Man: "You get the feeling that you are being watched." Permanent Mark status while on level.
-- Omniscience: "Everything is revealed." Permanent level-wide vitrification effect. You as well as all enemies can see through walls.


Some ideas for theme levels:

"The Gauntlet"
A domain created by a great Pan Lord who was obsessed with battle. Legend has it that his demonic armory is cached in this brutal realm.
-- A series of teleporters, each leading to a room with increasingly intense battles. You get access to portals leaving the level about half way through... But if you press onward, you get the treasure.

"Mirror Universe"
-- All the walls are reflective crystal, in narrow corridors. All three portals spawn together somewhere in the maze. The enemies are relatively weak, but shortly after you enter the realm, a mirror image of your character (like Mara's clone of you) spawns, and comes looking for you. (Your mirror image knows where you are, by the way—there is an equivalent of the "Mark" status, but only for your mirror image.)

"The Schoolyard"
A gathering place for fledgling demons. They grow up so fast...
-- No special layout, except that the portals spawn together and are hidden away somewhere
-- TONS of weaker demons—who are afraid of you and generally avoid battle
-- Increasingly while you are on the level, the demons "grow up" and become fiends and the like, polymorphing into tougher and tougher creatures, who then are not so afraid of you and do not avoid battle

"In Search of Lost Time"
Chock full of dangerous creatures in a state of suspended animation [read: paralyzed]. Be careful, though... the longer you stay, the more you upset the delicate balance of this strange realm.
-- High concentration of extremely dangerous enemies, who wake up progressively as you spend time in the realm.

"Oblivion"
A forgotten realm of eternal sunshine. You have an intense desire to linger here in this peaceful realm indefinitely, as you feel your troubles and cares melt away.
-- Layout random, but the features are different, very bright and pleasant (this can use same tiles as the Holy pan level for the most part)
-- While here, you slowly forget your skills, having skills lower randomly but cumulatively. This can affect all skills. The effect immediately ends, with skills restored to regular levels, once you leave the area (plus any experience gained while in Oblivion)

"Ouroboros"
A strange realm that is continuously being eaten by ancient, evil forces.
-- All three portals in center, open layout. The edges are "eaten" away continuously, disintegrating into nothing, forcing everything into the center. Near the edges, malign gateways open, with eldritch tentacles galore.

EDIT: Another idea:
"Hades"
This realm is liked to the afterlife.
-- Can generate ghosts from any bones files of high level characters from *any* branch. Also has chance to generate a spectral version of uniques that you killed. (Mostly high-level uniques only, though maybe you get one or two "easter egg" spawns, and get chance to destroy Sigmund's soul 200K turns after you took him out way back on D4.)

[Amnesiac]

I agree that paralisys is a bit ridiculous hell effect, it didn't cause me trouble during my few extended games, though, fortunately. I don't even remember happening it to me (maybe once?). Does it ignore MR?

[dck]

I'm sorry but I don't think I like any of these ideas to improve either hell or pan.
Hells could probably lose a good bunch of stupid effects like sticky flame, self-fcloud, elemental blasting that just destroys consumables, para and mass curses without taking much of a hit in terms of danger; but I think the idea of adding effects dependent on the tension meter is awful: Everyone is going to be at max tension while fighting any lord and since high tension effects are huge bullshit but take a while to happen you should look for something dangerous in level 7 and trigger the effect once before fighting the lord in question unless the idea of being stripped of all magic effects, slowed, petrified, having all of your sources of resistances stop working or getting some terrible new status that doesn't let you see anyone but adjacent enemies (while they can still beat the shit out of you) is hugely appealing to you.

Similarly, making them "more distinct" by adding random things that screw with the core elements that make crawl's combat and positioning interesting isn't a good idea to me, and I keep seeing people just carelessly throwing around the possibility of "lol no scrolls/potions" for anta and asmo because "it makes sense" but I think that'd be a very big change because consumables are important options in crawl and making them unreliable in any way would be a big hit. Also sadly itemdest is still a thing so consumables suffer enough in both of those places already.

I also don't agree with the vision that Pan will be made more interesting by adding tons of different effects to every level or by adding a lot of new fixed levels with the portals out actively placed as far away as possible so the player has to slog through them. At some point you have to consider the player may not be interested in slowly walking through the path you've prepared for him, that his idea of fun may not include completely beating every single fixed floor you decided to put into pan and that maybe, he just wants the runes and to get out and doesn't care either about the loot or dealing with random floors where he is subject to things like god wraths or permamark and the like for no apparent reason other than making the level feel "special" just because.

I think Pan is okay as it is to the extent "post-end" can be okay and have my own ideas on how to use it to have fun in just regular 3 rune games.
It really does need more ways out though.

I don't like having to give feedback that is so hugely negative but I find most of this compendium of ideas honestly hugely unfun and think they'd make something bad worse.

[Sandman25]

I suggest to avoid effects which depend on time spent. Careful play and autoexploring should not be punished.

[and into]

dck: Nothing wrong with negative feedback!

Any bits or pieces of the proposal could be taken or left. Since I can't code myself, it isn't like I can make a patch or something, so I sometimes have to take a "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" approach. I'm fine if 90% of it or more is considered god awful.

Some of your criticisms are fairly minor though; yes having some of the Hell effects I proposed could really screw you over on Hell 7, but then I proposed scaling back on them on level 7. Potentially you could remove them altogether, as Level 7 is already dangerous and special, but the effects could make 1–6 matter more.

Maybe the global effects in Hell throw too many gimmicks at the player, but as it stands most of the Hells are fairly similar from 1–6 and you just dive to the bottom as fast as possible, while dozens of nonthreatening hell hounds and crap are spammed at you, then once in a blue moon a Hell effect that actually matters happens, but sometimes those effects matter in a kind of bullshit way. And things like your concern about tension-scumming could easily be avoided simply by having the timing mechanism for them be random, rather than literally on a timer or whatever, and *which* (not when) hell effects happen will be determined by tension vs. non-tension.

As for Pan, I might not have made it clear that I don't want every level to be special, or else none of them are. I think something like, out of 30 Pan levels visited, on average you get 2 or 3 rune levels, 2 or 3 themed levels (like Holy Pan level), and maybe 2 to 4 random levels that have some special effect going on in them. And there can be a hard-cased delay programmed in so that the first 10 turns or so that you are in the level, special effects don't happen yet, so (even if it is one in a thousand odds) you are guaranteed not to be dumped next to random Pan Lord while also silenced or something.

Also (forgot to mention this in OP) I think incidence of Ziggurat spawns should increase if you have visited all the unique Pan Lord realms (whether you got the runes or not). This seems like a simple change that would limit grindiness and, if you are talking about design changes that only concern characters scumming Pan for Ziggs, then balance really, really isn't a concern any longer.


Sandman25: There wouldn't be a constant timer-effect, but on a few certain levels there would be, I think this is okay. Those effects would basically change the point of those levels, as they'd suddenly be kind of like a race. As I envisage it, you'd get a couple of Pan levels like that maybe out of 40 or 50 levels visited. I think that would break up the monotony without becoming monotonous in its own way.

[1010011010]

I suggest to avoid effects which depend on time spent. Careful play and autoexploring should not be punished.

With an appropriate message:

"Leave this place"- nothing happens
"You are trying my patience" - minor effect occurs
"your insolence will be your undoing!" - harsh effect occurs
ect.

This would push forwards the diving nature of hell which I think is good; hell should not be a place you want to stay. A maze dis prevents diving, not so good.


As for pandemonium, themes are a good idea but should be constructed not pre-thought. The current average pan level is constituted of a randomly generated map with a small random set of demons, a vault with a pan lord with random and possibly a demonic rune. These random elements should be tied together to a random pool of key words, so you get a level themed on x,y and z with a map generated to reflect x,y and z, and demons that best fit combinations of x,y and z, and a pan lord that have the traits x,y and z.

If a pan lord does not guard a rune, it should instead guard a strong portal with more chance of leading to runes.

[and into]

If a pan lord does not guard a rune, it should instead guard a strong portal with more chance of leading to runes.

I like that idea; often times pan lords guard vaults with exits out or to the abyss or a demonic rune or just a small loot vault, but sometimes there's nothing. It shouldn't be guaranteed that they guard something interesting, but the special portal you propose would be a neat type of treasure; it could have a higher chance of leading to something special, not just rune levels. (I.e., higher chance of leading to rune level, but also higher chance of theme level, higher chance of zigg spawn on the Pan level it leads to, etc.)

As for pandemonium, themes are a good idea but should be constructed not pre-thought. The current average pan level is constituted of a randomly generated map with a small random set of demons, a vault with a pan lord with random and possibly a demonic rune. These random elements should be tied together to a random pool of key words, so you get a level themed on x,y and z with a map generated to reflect x,y and z, and demons that best fit combinations of x,y and z, and a pan lord that have the traits x,y and z.

Yes, some of the things I proposed might have to be more designed (like Holy Pan level), but most of them could be *largely* random. The layout doesn't have to be preconstructed, you'd just have certain non-random elements that are guaranteed to "spawn together" when they are generated. Most of the stuff in my proposal would just introduce a lot of new parameters to be randomly determined. I agree that overall Pan should, as name suggests, be pandemoniac—random, tumultuous, crazy. A few, slightly more orderly realms wouldn't detract from that though, and might actually add to it, since *complete* randomness, ironically, tends to feel rather tame and monotonous and predictable after you've been exposed to it for a good while.

[reaver]

First, I just want to mention that I've found that Extended is low priority in developer discussions. The vast majority of players never win the game, so any work done in Extended is less valuable simply because it is experienced less.

I like the idea of a finite Pan which came up in ##crawl discussions. The idea is to make Pan 27 levels in every game, with each Demon Lord level appearing once, and to move the demonic rune to the Forest/Crypt.

I think your ideas for Pan levels would work better as portals or Wizlab. They're a bit gimmicky to show up in main Branch.

My thoughts on hell effects: The purpose of Hell Effects is to prevent players from resting in hell. So why not just disable MP and HP regeneration in Hell? Then Hell effects could be reduced dramatically (I don't think they could be entirely removed) without incentivising resting. If that would make the game too hard, then a set amount of HP or MP could be give when the player goes deeper.

Also, if any massive revamp of Extended did happen, I think it would be best to remove Haste and balance around that, since the biggest argument I've seen for Haste is that Extended would be broken without it.

[some12fat2move]

I think a prompt for the demonic rune would help pan a lot. It wouldn't make pan any easier (you would still have to deal with all the same dangerous situations that you do currently), and it would make finding that rune a lot less tedious.

[Volteccer_Jack]

I suggest to avoid effects which depend on time spent. Careful play and autoexploring should not be punished.

um that's the entire ****ing point of hell effects, and the reason hell is by far the most fun part of extended

[Sandman25]

I suggest to avoid effects which depend on time spent. Careful play and autoexploring should not be punished.

um that's the entire ****ing point of hell effects, and the reason hell is by far the most fun part of extended

Currently hell effects don't become harder when you spend more time on the level, you still get the same effects no matter how much time you are on the level, it's a valid strategy to rest in a small room (there are some rooms with size 1x3).

[roctavian]

I've been thinking a lot about Crawl's lategame recently! and into, thanks for always making well-organized and thoughtful posts!

I think that the theme levels suggested here are really excellent -- and I think that makes them better candidates for portal vaults. I think players are more prepared to wrestle with new/different rules when they take an entry portal, rather than a down-stair*. In particular I think the game could use more portal vaults between Vaults and Zot** and by that stage of the game, characters will be prepared to deal with exotic threats like the "Oblivion" theme.

A branch as large as Pan should probably have a shallower gimmick but a deeper theme, for there to be much improvement. I know this usually sounds like Crawl fanfic when people talk like that, but fluff is important as a tool to communicate information to the player. Pan is a "huge wasteland with gobs of demons" and that's nice, but I don't think it means anything specific for the player. The unique Pan lords are interesting, and randomized Pan lords are a defining feature of the branch, but they don't all tie together in a way that communicates what Pan is for.

I think that the Abyss had the same problem with vague theme until recently, and I think the gameplay changes to the Abyss have reinforced the fluff. I think that you should be able to explain a branch's theme in a single sentence if you want to make it useful for players -- Abyss is an infinite chaotic plane of eldritch horrors. Done, first-time players can infer details from that and know what they're getting into, in abstract, though they might not know the specifics. I've heard Pan described as a realm "beyond the reach of the gods" but that has no gameplay impact and no actual thematic consequences.

Anyways. Beyond all the thematic stuff, I think that shafting as a hell effect would probably be a bonus to most characters, considering you're usually looking for the stairs anyways. And landing in a crowd of monsters on the next floor down is virtually the same thing as having a crowd show up here, just more convenient.

I'm not crazy about the Dis-to-lategame-Lab conversion. I like the idea of something that confronts Charm spells in the late-game, but I don't think it should be a one-branch tune -- something more like a hell monster that reduces Charm/Transmutation durations when it hits, that could be mixed in with other bands, would make more situations interesting. I don't like the potion/scroll stuff but I *love* Demonic Haze. Three tiles of haze around the edges of LOS might be too much, however. How would it interact with Nightstalker mutation?

* or Pan level portal but you know what I'm sayin.

** like this one maybe.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I still hold the unpopular opinion that you could improve extended by removing Torment* and Hellfire and replacing them with threats that are more interesting that "does damage to you regardless of what your stats and gear are". I mean, if some characters are threatened more by some things and less than other things than other characters during the rest of the game, why can't that be true in extended too? Of course, that wouldn't be anywhere near a simple solution, but making extended more interesting doesn't have one anyway. And no, I don't have any suggestions off-hand since I have to leave for class in five minutes. Maybe later unless I get firestormed for this opinion yet again.

*Yes, I know that Life Pro reduces damage, but even at max resistance it still does enough damage that you don't want to be Tormented more than once, maybe twice (or honestly, at all). And yes, Undead and blah blah blah, but most torment-abusers also have Dispel Undead which might as well just be a renamed Hellfire that only hits Undead players.

[Sar]

most torment-abusers also have Dispel Undead

Shadow Fiends and, um?

Dispel Undead which might as well just be a renamed Hellfire

"Hellfire-that-hits-harder-but-has-limited-range-and-has-no-smite-targeted-version" would be a more accurate name, if a bit too long.

Edit: forgot Gloorx has both Symbol of Torment and Dispel Undead, too.

[eeviac]

I've long been a proponent of moving extended runes out of pan/hells and into branches that aren't full of demons and undead. The easiest first step would have been moving demonic into forest, but since forest was created as a crypt swap, it doesn't really help the 'less demons and undead' paradigm shift that I was hoping for.

edit: I should clarify that I think Hells are generally good (but paralysis should still be removed). It's Pan that can turn into a drag. I don't mind Pan being infinite, I do mind when it takes 40+ floors to get all 5 runes.

[and into]

I think that the theme levels suggested here are really excellent -- and I think that makes them better candidates for portal vaults. I think players are more prepared to wrestle with new/different rules when they take an entry portal, rather than a down-stair*. In particular I think the game could use more portal vaults between Vaults and Zot** and by that stage of the game, characters will be prepared to deal with exotic threats like the "Oblivion" theme.

A branch as large as Pan should probably have a shallower gimmick but a deeper theme, for there to be much improvement. I know this usually sounds like Crawl fanfic when people talk like that, but fluff is important as a tool to communicate information to the player. Pan is a "huge wasteland with gobs of demons" and that's nice, but I don't think it means anything specific for the player. The unique Pan lords are interesting, and randomized Pan lords are a defining feature of the branch, but they don't all tie together in a way that communicates what Pan is for.

These are all good points, and I also agree with your take on the Abyss and how it has been improved lately. Maybe all that needs to happen for Pan to improve a lot is a lot simpler, and the bells and whistles in the OP are better suited for portal vaults (as reaver also suggested). So maybe Pan should just
1.) warn you when (first?) demonic rune you come across is on level
2.) have higher chance for unique rune level to spawn as number of Pan levels you've visited since last rune level increases
3.) have substantially higher chance for Ziggs to spawn after you've collected all Pan runes

I think that shafting as a hell effect would probably be a bonus to most characters, considering you're usually looking for the stairs anyways. And landing in a crowd of monsters on the next floor down is virtually the same thing as having a crowd show up here, just more convenient.

I'm not crazy about the Dis-to-lategame-Lab conversion. I like the idea of something that confronts Charm spells in the late-game, but I don't think it should be a one-branch tune -- something more like a hell monster that reduces Charm/Transmutation durations when it hits, that could be mixed in with other bands, would make more situations interesting. I don't like the potion/scroll stuff but I *love* Demonic Haze. Three tiles of haze around the edges of LOS might be too much, however. How would it interact with Nightstalker mutation?

Good point about shafting—if anything Hell should do the reverse and suck you up to the level above (only should happen from levels 2 to 6, probably).

Yeah I was pretty unsure about what new effects could be tried out in Gehenna and Cocytus. As for demonic haze, 3 tiles deep is probably too much, having it start at 1 and then go to 2 would make sense. A few different ways it could interact with Nightstalker, Darkness, and the like; the way that makes most sense to me would be to have those effects tighten LOS, but draw the haze closer to you. If you get LOS down to *less* than 6, however, then the demonic haze should probably be removed, as it would start to make certain spells and abilities completely untargettable for things in your LOS.

My idea with Dis was less "late game labyrinth" and more, "the walls shift to block your escape sometimes." Kind of a demonic version of the vault warden's ability. Thematically, the idea of Dis, the Iron City, being claustrophobic seems to fit IMO and would give more of a "hellish" feel than just "iron." Tartarus, by contrast, would have more wide-open spaces, which is already dangerous in its own way, but demonic haze ("This place is shrouded in an evil darkness") would emphasize that.

I'm drawn to the idea of each Hell representing a different kind of fear and/or death: claustrophobia / being buried alive (Dis); fire / burned at the stake (Gehenna); drowning / freezing to death (Cocytus); fear of the dark / agorophobia / death from shock (Tartarus). Fire and ice/water are already well integrated into Gehenna and Cocytus; perhaps it is only Dis and Tartarus that need some work for differentiation.

[sgrunt]

forest was created as a crypt swap

Forest only rotates with Crypt because at the time it landed we couldn't think of somewhere else to put it without affecting game length too much. If some runes freed up, I could see them co-existing.

[eeviac]

forest was created as a crypt swap

Forest only rotates with Crypt because at the time it landed we couldn't think of somewhere else to put it without affecting game length too much. If some runes freed up, I could see them co-existing.

That's promising.


Here's how I would improve extended:

- Remove demonic rune. Move Forest to a late D branch. Buff monster set accordingly. Give it the wooden rune.
- Guarantee all 4 pan runes will generate within the first 27 pan floors.
- Remove demons from the Abyss. (This has been brought up before by people other than me. The less neqoxecs there are in the game, the better crawl will be.)

[roctavian]

I hate to suggest that Pan needs a unique monster set -- it seems like a lot to implement and balance, especially because it's all late-game -- but it could make the branch more interesting. The lategame is rather demon-heavy as well, and it would be great to break that up a bit.

Someone suggested making all the monsters in Pan random demonspawn, sort of like mini-Pan Lords, but that would force players to xv a bit too frequently to be practical.

[Sandman25]

Don't remove popcorn from any branches. DD will not like it.

[reaver]

Don't remove popcorn from any branches. DD will not like it.

I hope this a joke. "This would make an overpowered species worse" is a terrible reason not to make a massive gameplay improvement, particularly when we could make a DD-specific balance change such as making their "recharge wand" power only have a chance of draining permanent MP.

[Sandman25]

Don't remove popcorn from any branches. DD will not like it.

I hope this a joke. "This would make an overpowered species worse" is a terrible reason not to make a massive gameplay improvement, particularly when we could make a DD-specific balance change such as making their "recharge wand" power only have a chance of draining permanent MP.

No, that's not a joke. I hope you don't seriously believe DD are still OP in extended when AC/SH/damage shaving are almost useless because of torment and hellfire. If the only monsters in Pan were fiends, hellions, hell sentinels and random pan lords, DD could run out of permanent MP trying to find that demonic rune. Also don't forget there are DD mages (EE for example) who really need those permanent HP.

[Kalma]

Torment can be completely avoided with a spell, though.

The suggestion for popcorn removal was for the hell effect that spawns weak monsters, not monster generation in general.

[and into]

forest was created as a crypt swap

Forest only rotates with Crypt because at the time it landed we couldn't think of somewhere else to put it without affecting game length too much. If some runes freed up, I could see them co-existing.

Also: Maybe it has just been especially brutal my last few games (or I'm still adjusting to it not being a joke like it used to be), but with new improvements to Crypt, it is probably at or near rune-branch level of difficulty, at least for some characters. So you could have them swap and whichever one spawns has rune at bottom. I probably like the idea of coexistence more, though, as we already have swapping rune branches in Lair, but if it is felt this adds back in too much exp. or whatever, a Crypt/Forest swapping rune would be fine.

[and into]

No, that's not a joke. I hope you don't seriously believe DD are still OP in extended when AC/SH/damage shaving are almost useless because of torment and hellfire. If the only monsters in Pan were fiends, hellions, hell sentinels and random pan lords, DD could run out of permanent MP trying to find that demonic rune. Also don't forget there are DD mages (EE for example) who really need those permanent HP.

No one is saying that you should only have fiends, hellions, hell sentinels and random pan lords. In fact the popcorn removal was mostly concerning Hell, but a degree of that could certainly help out in Pan as well. (The amount of popcorn in Pan doesn't bother me as much, maybe that's just me though.)

Whether or not DD are OP is a bit beside the point, reaver's bringing that up may have been slightly distracting, but his overall point is completely correct. You are speaking very very specifically of a Makhleb or TSO DD, Sandman. Not just a single species, but a single species and god choice. Possible bad interaction should be kept in mind, sure, but if the overall change is positive, the change should be made, and those minor bad interactions could be addressed in many different ways. Even simpler than what reaver suggested, simply making recharge scrolls much more common drop in the Hells could probably do it, without altering something that will have effects throughout the whole game for DD. (This is extended we are talking about, after all, so species should not be changed due to arguably having too hard of a time with optional content.)

In terms of Hell, we should also note that a lot of hell effects damage you, and this can make the Hells especially *annoying* (apart from questions of easiness or overpoweredness or whatever) for DD. With less popcorn you wouldn't get gummed up and delayed that often, so even Makh and TSO DDs will definitely have a more enjoyable time, possibly even an easier time. I bet they'd come out ahead overall, in fact, but maybe not. However: If not, and it becomes a problem, there are pretty easy ways to solve that without preventing improvements in whole branches of the game.

[njvack]

If some runes freed up

Like, if maybe Pan didn't have five of them in every game?

[brendan]

I've been considering adding the -Scroll and -Potion effects from Destruction branch to Gehenna and Cocytus (along with Ice Cave and Volcano). I'm not an extended player, so I'd like another dev to make this call.

[dck]

Could I know the reasoning behind this?

[galehar]

I've been considering adding the -Scroll and -Potion effects from Destruction branch to Gehenna and Cocytus (along with Ice Cave and Volcano). I'm not an extended player, so I'd like another dev to make this call.

You mean on top of standard destruction? If yes, I don't see the point. I think players just drop vulnerable consumables before entering those branches/portals.

[Sar]

In most ice caves you can either bypass freezing clouds (which is the main threat to your pots) or drop potions before fighting statues that generate them. Going into Coc with no curing doesn't sound like a fun idea either, as confusion is one of Hell effects.

[dpeg]

What's not to understand about this? Crawl has a set of tools you have at any given time, including scrolls, potions, spells, wands, gods. If some places disable one of these (there are various ways to do so), it makes matters more interesting, because you cannot apply your standard approach to threats. This is why hell has hell effects, for example.

I am definitely in favour of deeper Abyss levels interfering with your god relations, as another example (again, there are a number of ways how to do this).

[Galefury]

dpeg: while I agree with your post in principle, forcing people to wear clarity in Coc or have a pretty high chance to unavoidably die does not seem like a good idea. OTOH some people play and win MuCK, so maybe it's not so bad after all... In any case, confusion (and rotting) without curing are pretty horrible. But this problem can very easily be fixed by adjusting hell effects in Coc. For example: lowered confusion duration, comparable to paralysis duration, and no rotting. Disabling scrolls is much less problematic IMO, their effects are more replaceable.

[dpeg]

galefury: I don't defend single hell effects, of course. I'm only saying that restricted toolkits can make for more interesting situations. Makes sense to do stuff like this in the extended part of the game, I think.

[Turukano]

OTOH some people play and win MuCK

Off-topic question: why does "xomscumming" still have MuCK "highscore" in highscore table?

[dck]

Geh and Coc as they are have pretty standard threats though, basically lots of damage and lots of guys to dish out said damage. Potions (and to a lesser extent scrolls in Geh) are interesting and good to have there because they allow you to kill and avoid the dudes in different ways and to take important decisions just like they do during the rest of the game. Shutting them down for no apparent reason doesn't make sense to me, unless it's believed that there is a problem with the level of each branch of hell that matters (the last one), which I don't think there is; particularly not with coc since it has some pretty tricky and fun layouts (and and awful one too but hey).

What if hells were four levels long instead of twenty-eight levels long? As in, you enter the gate and are already in the interesting level, this would also allow for some more variation on level design that doesn't feel completely wasted because players wouldn't have to dig through six terrible levels to have a chance to find it.

[Sandman25]

I kind of like first 6 levels of Hell, it is interesting to have "retreat into Vestibule from 6th floor Or be stubborn and try not to die" choice.

[Volteccer_Jack]

OTOH some people play and win MuCK

Off-topic question: why does "xomscumming" still have MuCK "highscore" in highscore table?

because it has more points than the other mucks

[Tiktacy]

OTOH some people play and win MuCK

Off-topic question: why does "xomscumming" still have MuCK "highscore" in highscore table?

because it has more points than the other mucks

I'm sorry if this is really off-topic, but I would just like to comment on how appropriate the acronym "MuCK" really is.

[reaver]

Potions (and to a lesser extent scrolls in Geh) are interesting and good to have there because they allow you to kill and avoid the dudes in different ways and to take important decisions just like they do during the rest of the game. Shutting them down for no apparent reason doesn't make sense to me

The idea behind shutting down certain options in certain situations is that you get a different game than normal for a while, even though the normal one has depth. As an oversimplified example, imagine that playing a floor with potions enable gives you 20 decisions and playing them with potions disabled gives you 15. Now let's say you play a dozen floors with your current character and whittle the 20 decisions in the first scenario to 10 reasonable ones, and either never or rarely use the other 10. Switching to the second (15 decision) scenario "increases" depth for you even though it would have less depth if you were forced to play the entire game that way, or if you would be able to whittle those options down to 5 reasonable ones if you spent to much time on it. When you add this to the fact there are countless ways of restricting options (Silence, Suppression, Engulf, Exh, Antimagic, God Conducts, Status Effects, etc), restricting options begins to look like a powerful way to increase depth in a game.

[Grimm]

(KoboldLord's proposal for revamping Hell effects are in this thread)

[and into]

Thanks, Grimm. Looks like Koboldlord had the idea for a tension-based system a while ago and he and some devs fleshed it out more. I do think that would be an improvement.

As it stands some of the Hell effects don't prevent resting, so much as (in effect) spamming weaklings at you. I suppose this "prevents resting" but only in a very annoying way, and overall you just end up resting more (cause you kill the popcorn and then have to wait to restore mana or whatever, during which time another batch of Orville Redenbacher might pop). I do think some of the ideas for Pan levels could work as vaults or portals or whatever, and maybe there's some promise in the "demonic haze" idea but that might be hard to implement. Aside from that, the other stuff in my proposal is pretty redundant thanks to the earlier thread Koboldlord started.

[Lacuenta]

Just entered electric boogaloo pan you sure change is neccessary?

[WildSam]

I think "lategame with sophisticated flavoured challenges" is better than "ridiculously tough dudes, who hit hard and abuse smite-targeted irresistable/weakly-ressistable-current-hp-%-damage".
E.g. Dis where your ability to use buffs (spells/invokes/evokes/pots) really limited + may be something unique with slightly stronger enemies than late dungeon sounds more interesting than current Dis.

[wizzzargh]

A major problem with the random pan floors is that, apart from confrontations with Panlords, 1's, and 2's, they are rarely interesting or challenging, but nevertheless can provide good XP and items. The risk is further mitigated by the fact that if a floor has an undesirable monster set, you can simply leave to a safer level.

I think Pan should be finite(but still large, with at least 20 levels). This makes leaving a random pan level a meaningful choice, as you cannot simply cycle through them forever. Speedrunners may still wish to rush through pan looking for the unique floors(and a finite pan would make this much faster), but if you are seeking experience and loot, finite levels would encourage engaging in random floors that are dangerous, rather than simply fleeing. Holy Pan, for instance, is quite dangerous and interesting, but there's no real loss if you leave it alone. Cure Mutation and good loot can just be found elsewhere in Pan, after all.

While making the decision to engage a floor or not more important can be fixed by making Pan finite, it doesn't solve the problem that random floors are frequently not very interesting. I suppose this may not matter to you if all you care about is finding the runes and ascending, but I enjoy doing Holy Pan and similar things because it is a rare experience, not because doing Holy Pan will increase my chances of winning. I'm sure many other players also play to experience interesting things, and I don't think the feeling of "Wow this is cool and new" should go away after you've 15-runed once or twice.

I think And Into's idea of the level itself having access to a randomized list of traits could make Extended more fun if it is implemented in such a way that it does not detract from the enjoyment of people who just want to enter pan, get the runes, and leave. Making sure the portals out of the level are easy to find is probably the best way to do this-going for 100% completion of a special Pan level should be an option, not a necessity.

I came up with some more simple traits that I think could make a Pan floor more interesting, and also easier or harder depending on your character.

1- Shallow water covering every tile, and demons with Airstrike. Both ground movement and flight have their own risks in this scenario. Melee fighters might be wary of engaging such a floor, while aquatic races could enjoy using their racial ability. Spellcasters might benefit from the ability to create steam or freezing clouds with elemental conjurations, but I can imagine scenarios where this becomes undesirable.

2-A floor full of fog, and preferably melee oriented demons. Having no LOS would be disconcerting to many characters who are primarily ranged attackers, but other characters may enjoy the experience. Since this would be a pain to explore, levels with the "Foggy" marker may be smaller than average.

3. Acidic walls, like what is found in slime. This could completely change how positioning is approached. Making player to develop nonstandard tactics forces them to engage intellectually with the game, and I've heard multiple people say that the most important resistance needed in Pan is rTedium+++, and we certainly don't want players to feel like they are just going through the motions instead of actually playing.

4. A Floor with Twisters spawning instead of 1-tier demons. Maneuvering/Fighting around tornados isn't something that happens very often, but I think it is potentially an interesting non-standard challenge. Preferably the demons on the floor would be made immune to the wind damage. And of course, if you see this level and think it's too horrifying to try beating, you can simply leave.

5. A Panlord floor. On a standard Pan floor, players usually have a go-to procedure for dealing with the panlord. If Runes are the only concern, the panlord is usually ignored. Mages usually can simply obliterate the Lord and his retinue with high-level spells. Another method is to break up the Lord's gang and pick them off one by one. If a player is confronted with a small squad of 2-5 pan lords, the course of action becomes less clear, and the player hopefully will actively engage with the game instead of falling into a predictable and boring routine.

[Siegurt]

5. A Panlord floor. On a standard Pan floor, players usually have a go-to procedure for dealing with the panlord. If Runes are the only concern, the panlord is usually ignored. Mages usually can simply obliterate the Lord and his retinue with high-level spells. Another method is to break up the Lord's gang and pick them off one by one. If a player is confronted with a small squad of 2-5 pan lords, the course of action becomes less clear, and the player hopefully will actively engage with the game instead of falling into a predictable and boring routine.

The rest of the terrain-based suggestions I like (as they change how you approach the level). This one strikes me as just a "raise the difficulty level" without any particular change to your actual tactical approach. There's not much difference (other than strength) between a single panlord with a bunch of 1's and 2's and a group of panlords.

Some other things I thought of along those lines (Where terrain could influence your movement/tactics):

A level with walls that raise and lower at (relatively short) intervals (Perhaps turning your one-square wide corridor into a wide open area or vise versa)

A level of mirrors where walls can look like nearby creatures, and will reflect bolts back at the caster (including projectiles)

A level of liquifaction, where all the tiles are liquified mud and slow movement for everyone.

A level where everyone is pushed in a given given direction every random number of turns (Like being trampled only the level is doing it to you)

A level with slow-moving destructible boulders always moving around one-corridor wide mazes, the boulders should move more slowly than the player, but not lots slower, and take LOTS of damage to destroy (except of course with disintigration) and provide no exp (not count as kills or creatures), basically forcing you run around keep out of the way, or waste firepower on something wasteful. The boulders should generate at one point, follow a set path and when they get to the end teleport back to the beginning of their path (Probably with a teleport pad the player can also use.) Destroyed boulders should eventually be replaced.

[dck]

Shallow water is along trees and webs one of the worst terrain features of crawl so I hope it isn't added to pan in any way.
A floor where you know every enemy is going to be a pan lord is certainly not somewhere anyone sane would want to be at so I guess if you get that you just haul ass asap instead of trying to grab anything from there.

Similarly randomly having the floor trample people sounds terrible and a pan lab with boulders you have to zap with one of your ten wands of disint doesn't sound very fun.

[and into]

wizzzargh: Putting aside the finite vs. infinite issue, there is the question of whether more "themed" levels to Pan will or won't improve it. There's precedent, seeing as how beyond the rune levels you got disco pan, holy pan level, and some of the nastier vaults that tend to leave a big impression even when they don't affect the whole level's layout. I think a few other levels kind of like holy pan, with higher risks but better rewards, would break up the monotony while searching for ziggs or waiting for the next rune level to spawn. But it seems that even the proposal for more themed levels to Pan is fairly controversial.

Of your ideas, I think the twister one is promising and could be combined with fog and water for an air- and water-based Pan level, with a very different feel than Cocytus and Swamp or Shoals. Affecting player's LOS is potentially a neat challenge that could be further explored in Crawl (hence my "demonic haze" idea), but having a fog-heavy level with considerable melee threats is a much more elegant approach. I like it.

I agree with dck that making people try to fight while standing in shallow water would just be frustrating. However, limiting how much space one has and giving narrow lines of retreat due to deep water limiting where you can go, on the other hand, could be interesting. Strong winds throughout the level could disable or strongly discourage flight—either you are simply prevented from flying, or you take damage constantly (like mini-airstrike every turn) when you fly and the duration of all flight effects is shortened greatly. At semi-regular but randomized intervals the winds could pick up and cause waterspouts, obscuring view, pushing you around, and doing some (sub-Tornado) damage to everything (more damage to things that are in flight). Needless to say there shouldn't be any places you *need* to fly in order to cross, rather you'd be strongly discouraged from using flight and mostly you'd have to stick to navigating land bridges that cut across the level.

[roctavian]

I think what Pan needs is its own distinct monster set, one which isn't predominantly demonic. I've been scribbling up a rough proposal/post with ideas for cohesive Pan fluff and monsters, I wanted to flesh it out before posting it. In short, I think what Pan needs before any gimmicks is a monster set; if it did have gimmicks I think it would be a great branch for diminishing the player's piety/reducing access god powers, even though some people want to add that to Abyss.

[Wahaha]

I think Pan has a great (interesting) monster set. What's wrong with demons exactly?

[Tenaya]

I've been considering adding the -Scroll and -Potion effects from Destruction branch to Gehenna and Cocytus (along with Ice Cave and Volcano). I'm not an extended player, so I'd like another dev to make this call.

When I visit Hell:7, I like to bring either 1 or 2 scrolls of Magic Mapping. This presents an extra little challenge for me to get my scroll safely through 6 levels of fiery attacks. I think it would be unfortunate to take away this option because it does influence how I run through the upper levels.