Vaults Vanquisher
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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
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battaile wrote:dpeg is over on the SA thread whining that Dracoomega has been driven from crawl development because someone was mean on the internet (and by mean, I mean they made a single post complaining about a death). Is this true?
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battaile wrote:dpeg is over on the SA thread whining that Dracoomega has been driven from crawl development because someone was mean on the internet (and by mean, I mean they made a single post complaining about a death). Is this true?
Vaults Vanquisher
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Mankeli wrote:Edit. And why in GDD?
battaile wrote:Design discussion is rendered moot if internet baddies chase away all the devs.
QED
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Mankeli wrote:Edit. 2 I think I found the posts you were referring to.
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njvack wrote:Mankeli wrote:Edit. 2 I think I found the posts you were referring to.
It might be useful if you'd link those? Or if they're too horrible for the masses to see, at least PM 'em to mods. (Or were they on SA?)
If the Tavern (GDD in particular) is driving devs away from contributing, that is bad. I'm not sure that's what happened here, though?
realise that you are calling a wanker the man who brought you the new Vaults, the new starting Conjurer book and the new evokable items?
There are good chances that outright hostility like yours have driven away a great developer. It is such a shame! You were playing trunk, not stable for god's sake. If you don't understand that this can lead to features which are under construction or unbalanced, then just go with the stable releases.
People like you ruin DCSS for good.
You can rest assured that I don't care if you play Crawl, or how good you are at it. I do care if people like you drive away developers.
lordfrikk: Seems a bit like it. When I heard about the problem, I started looking through the feedback he got (someone told me that Dragoomega has been looking feedback)... and it was devastating. I just replied to Coyo7e because his comment was recent and precisely of the type which constituts a needless personal attack (including a name, which makes it a lot worse), gives no clue as to what is wrong, let alone coming up with ideas how to improve matters.
If you guys can't be bothered to behave slightly decently, why should we bother to make the game decent?
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evilmike wrote:There's been a lot of personal attacks thrown around for the last several months, he's taken the brunt of them. I speak to him sometimes and I can say he's very disillusioned with the way things are, and he's not the only person who feels this way. It's a shame, because he's one of those rare people who has a talent for game design and is a good coder... I find most people tend only be good at one or the other.lordfrikk wrote:Wait, what? DracoOmega quit the development team?
SA has been pretty polite for the most part, but from what I've been told this stuff is getting really bad with some other parts of the DCSS community. In the time I've been involved with the project (several years now) this is the first time I've seen this kind of stuff have such a negative effect on the development of the game.
dpeg wrote:lordfrikk: Seems a bit like it. When I heard about the problem, I started looking through the feedback he got (someone told me that Dragoomega has been looking feedback)... and it was devastating. I just replied to Coyo7e [origin of said unjustified attack] because his comment was recent and precisely of the type which constituts a needless personal attack (including a name, which makes it a lot worse), gives no clue as to what is wrong, let alone coming up with ideas how to improve matters.
If you guys can't be bothered to behave slightly decently, why should we bother to make the game decent?
Vaults Vanquisher
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reaver wrote:I hope DracoOmega sees that the people attacking him are neither correct nor the majority of Crawl's player base. I've enjoyed his great contributions to the game.
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EvilMike wrote:The whole thing is very community-driven. The people who develop crawl these days often come from the player community, and want to remain a part of it. So, when the reactions a dev gets from the community seem overly hostile (whether it's real or percieved), it saps a lot of the motivation to keep working on it. It's not really about drama or being unable to take criticism - it's just that at a certain point, you're going to be happier working on a different project, on your own terms.
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MarvinPA wrote:Edit: re-opened.
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battaile wrote:MarvinPA wrote:Edit: re-opened.
Feel free to close again. The original question has been answered outside of this thread, and as I strongly suspected this was nothing more than a fabricated pretext for dpeg to go on a self-righteous tirade in yet another venue.
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battaile wrote:How is it even plural? One person made a comment about draco and dpeg came in on a soapbox.
pubby wrote:EvilMike wrote:The whole thing is very community-driven. The people who develop crawl these days often come from the player community, and want to remain a part of it. So, when the reactions a dev gets from the community seem overly hostile (whether it's real or percieved), it saps a lot of the motivation to keep working on it. It's not really about drama or being unable to take criticism - it's just that at a certain point, you're going to be happier working on a different project, on your own terms.
In the complainer's eyes, the game isn't very community-driven. Things will get changed based on 5 people agreeing in ##crawl-dev, and once the change gets coded there is little desire to remove it.
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Daggtex wrote:even if the thread probably doesn't belong in GDD
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njvack wrote:One other route (not one I'm advocating, mind you) would be for Crawl to adopt a less-open development process. The mailing list could be invite-only, the trunk branch could be on a private git server until merging for a numbered release, and the server(s) running trunk could be restricted to a few dozen testers who know how to evaluate new content without being abusive.
I love being able to check out new content as it's developed -- but honestly, I'd rather have a sustainable devteam.
njvack wrote:One other route (not one I'm advocating, mind you) would be for Crawl to adopt a less-open development process. The mailing list could be invite-only, the trunk branch could be on a private git server until merging for a numbered release, and the server(s) running trunk could be restricted to a few dozen testers who know how to evaluate new content without being abusive.
I love being able to check out new content as it's developed -- but honestly, I'd rather have a sustainable devteam.
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eeviac wrote:I don't think restricting trunk access will solve many problems, as people are about as likely to complain about stable as they are about trunk.
evktalo wrote:I'm pretty upset about this, I've seen DracoOmega in particular as an impressive "new guy" who has been able to address long-existing large design issues (such as boredom of Vaults monster set) with admirable vision and effort.
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BlackSheep wrote:With respect to the moderators who keep this thread open and in the development forum, this isn't a dev issue, it's a personal issue.
I don't see anything on that page that should cause a moderately well-adjusted human being to quit a hobby, and if there's more to the story
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claws wrote:There was common, repeated IRC and tavern advice from people somewhat respected to skip one, then both branches that DracoOmega had recently overhauled, inherently negative both on the developer and on the development process.
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dpeg wrote:You say this, but you are already implying that someone is not "moderately well-adjusted". Heck, I don't know if DracoOmega truly stepped back, and what I dug up on SA was just one glaring example.
dpeg wrote:I do think that you underestimate the use of names. There is quite a difference between "What asshole would write a comment like this" and "Only this BlackSheep asshole would write a comment like this." It gets even worse if real names are used; which happens on SA. If you see this a couple of times, you start wondering if you chose the right hobby, and I'd say you're moderately well-adjusted to do the wondering.
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If you want to keep devs on the project, start a discussion about how to handle criticism as a developer.
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dpeg wrote:I still think this point is important enough to merit a discussion over here. (You are probably right that it is not a good idea to use a thread started by an aggressor for this in the first place, but this is where we are...)
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BlackSheep wrote: Everything in the thread, supportive or otherwise, perpetuates the notion that this person is fragile or something.
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