Buff unrandarts

[khalil]

I got the singing sword several weeks ago. It was fun and said silly things.
It also sucked. I found a randart on the next floor that outclassed it.
Recently, I got the sword of zonguldrok. It sucked even more. While having friendly zombies was nice, learning create skeleton would have been a lot easier, and not worth loosing the ability to use ranged attacks without spawning monsters. Plus, rather like the singing sword, it's likely to be quickly outclassed by randarts.
Checking the wiki page on the other unrandarts, a lot of them appear have the same problem. Here are some that are in dire need of buffs, and suggestions as to how to do so:
Wrath of Trog: add Magic resistance, add the vorpal brand, and lower the berzerk chance.
Glave of Prune: This could probably be a bit more interesting. My complaints earlier appear to have been unfounded, but it's still a boring unrandart. Suggestion: Higher bonuses, but it's cursed and your stats slowly decrease while you wield it. When one reaches zero, you get custom stat death messages about turning into a prune. Adds the same element of "Am I willing to brave the curse" that the scythe of curses has.
Knife of Accuracy: The speed brand and base damage of a short sword.
Singing sword: Vorpal, speed, or both. That's about it really.
Shield of the Gong: Lower the noise it makes when struck, or up the enchantment by a lot.
Sword of Ceberov: Rf+++, Mr, and basicly anything else that seems remotely appropriate.
Robe of Misfortune: </joke>
What do you think?
EDIT: I'm removing the ideas people thought were stupid, and adding one of the unrandarts that should be on here.

[WalkerBoh]

Not gonna lie, scythe of curses was really really good the one time I found it (on a winning NaAM on a streak). Even though I was Oka, it was amazing. +13/+13 makes up for a lot, even on a scythe.

As for your general idea, I don't think all unrandarts need to be good. Maybe you don't use the singing sword all game, but it's fun while you do. There are quite a few really good unrandarts, some okay ones, and some bad ones. Seems reasonable to me.

[khalil]

Not gonna lie, scythe of curses was really really good the one time I found it (on a winning NaAM on a streak). Even though I was Oka, it was amazing. +13/+13 makes up for a lot, even on a scythe.

As for your general idea, I don't think all unrandarts need to be good. Maybe you don't use the singing sword all game, but it's fun while you do. There are quite a few really good unrandarts, some okay ones, and some bad ones. Seems reasonable to me.

The singing sword was fun, but there were objectively better choices everywhere. You shouldn't have to choose between playing effectively and having fun.

[WalkerBoh]

The singing sword was fun, but there were objectively better choices everywhere. You shouldn't have to choose between playing effectively and having fun.

Sure you do. That's the entire premise behind playing as a felid or a summoner.

[cerebovssquire]

Glaive of Prune is a +13 glaive, this is an excellent weapon, though not Zot/extended material. I agree with many of the others though, particularily Singing Sword.

Wrath of Trog is antimagic, no? Better than vorpal. The berserk chance is really restrictive, and from a flavour perspective - sure, it seems appropriate, but practically, it is a weapon that will never berserk any good player, because the chance is so high that you should never use it without clarity. In fact, to maybe differentiate it a bit more from standard Crawl weapons, a low berserk chance that can bypass clarity (this should be noted in a message that directly tells the player what is happening) might be appropriate.

Also, just put the Axe of Woe in regular Crawl already

[n1000]

I don't think fixedarts should necessarily be the strongest weapon of their type you're likely to find in a game, but it's true that many of them are quite weak. I disagree with you on a few of these:
Curses: This is a very powerful weapon. It has a massive enchantment and the necromancy miscasts effect is strong and quite fun.
Prune: Definitely does not have the same problem as SoC since glaive is a great weapon type. I guess it's a somewhat boring weapon but I'd still be happy to find it on any polearms character.

A broader problem is an imbalance between fixedarts of different weapon types. Most of the polearms are excellent weapons while I wouldn't really want to use the majority of axes or maces.

I rarely find an unrand body armour which I want to wear, while the cloaks and gloves are mostly excellent items.

[khalil]

Wrath of Trog is antimagic, no? Better than vorpal. The berserk chance is really restrictive, and from a flavour perspective - sure, it seems appropriate, but practically, it is a weapon that will never berserk any good player, because the chance is so high that you should never use it without clarity. In fact, to maybe differentiate it a bit more from standard Crawl weapons, a low berserk chance that can bypass clarity (this should be noted in a message that directly tells the player what is happening) might be appropriate.

The idea was vorpal and antimagic. There's lots of artifacts out there with more than one brand.
Also, love the clarity idea. NO MAGIC CAN STOP THE WRATH OF TROG!

I don't think fixedarts should necessarily be the strongest weapon of their type you're likely to find in a game, but it's true that many of them are quite weak. I disagree with you on a few of these:
Curses: This is a very powerful weapon. It has a massive enchantment and the necromancy miscasts effect is strong and quite fun.

I'll be honest, I haven't used all of those items I mentioned. Curses was just based one of my friends who had used it told me. Most were just me looking at the wiki page and saying "A dagger whose only notable trait is 27 to accuracy? D:1 floor trash is better than that!"

[prozacelf]

Actually, while I've never gotten it, the Vampire's Tooth looks pretty sweet for any sort of stabber, particularly if you're also a Vp. Making it a "better" short blade would mostly make it worse at stabbing but not notably better at melee, unless it was a quickblade.

And I think everyone loves the Robe of Misfortune. The only way it could be improved is if there were some way to make it keep reappearing on different floors un-IDed all over again. It'd be the Boris of unrandarts!

[khalil]

Actually, while I've never gotten it, the Vampire's Tooth looks pretty sweet for any sort of stabber, particularly if you're also a Vp. Making it a "better" short blade would mostly make it worse at stabbing but not notably better at melee, unless it was a quickblade.

And I think everyone loves the Robe of Misfortune. The only way it could be improved is if there were some way to make it keep reappearing on different floors un-IDed all over again. It'd be the Boris of unrandarts!

So, a randart then?
*Bdumtish*
Short blades are actually good at stabbing. They use the same skill/modifiers as daggers.
The robe of sucking at everything needing a buff was a joke.

[prozacelf]

I know it was a joke. That's why I argued for making it worse.

Unless something changed, daggers get double the stab bonus of the other short blades. Short blades are still better than the other alternatives though.

[khalil]

I know it was a joke. That's why I argued for making it worse.

Unless something changed, daggers get double the stab bonus of the other short blades. Short blades are still better than the other alternatives though.

Really? Didn't know that about daggers. Now I know why all my stabbers sucked.
As far as the joke goes, I couldn't tell.

[twelwe]

glaive of the prune, great weapon! i used it last game and died, because it was not equipped. whhops.

[khalil]

glaive of the prune, great weapon! i used it last game and died, because it was not equipped. whhops.

Shrug. As I said before, I just thought bad because polearm.

Recently, I got the sword of zonguldrok. It sucked even more.

wtf no. it is a +9 double sword, that is really good, and zombies are harmless. most of my games dont find a randart weapon better than a -1 scimitar of orc slaying, let alone a +9 double sword

Yes, but what am I supposed to eat? Also, just grab something from the hall of blades and use enchant weapon scrolls on it. Not that hard. My first win got his vampiric double sword that way.

[khalil]

Yes, but what am I supposed to eat?

food

There's not enough permafood to survive on that alone.

[danharaj]

Yes there is.

[n1000]

I remember reading that unrand equipment was supposed to be powerful but also have a big trade-off. People (including minmay) have noted that this isn't the case for most of these items at all. Most of these items are either very strong or completely worthless. I think that Zonguldrok is one of the few unrands that manages to be very powerful while having a significant but not crippling trade-off.

It's a short list of items which manage to find this balance. In my estimation only Black Knight's Barding, Shield of Ignorance, Maxwell's...that's all of them really.

[Fergy]

Add "Archmagi" to the robe of folly.

[n1000]

I wouldn't include shield of ignorance on that list. Maybe the new robe of Folly?

Yeah...it's a large shield but I figure for a small minority of characters it might fit? I was on the fence regarding that one.

The new robe of Folly definitely fits

[cerebovssquire]

New robe of Folly is great, agreed. I do think that Shield of Ignorance is a good unrand. While most characters (every one with spells, basically) don't want it, it is still interesting for the non-casters which happen to be using one-handers (okay, pretty niche) because it puts their INT in easily statdrainable range while being the best shield they'll find.

Add "Archmagi" to the robe of folly.

Uh... um...

[Fergy]

Add "Archmagi" to the robe of folly.

Uh... um...

Going by the old robe, haven't seen the new robe. Archmagi -cast seems like a gift from Xom.

[njvack]

I just thought bad because polearm.

Wait, what? Polearms own.

Yes, but what am I supposed to eat?

As others have said, permafood -- but you can learn OOD or petrify+LRD, both of which are good on their own. A weapon that gives you *another* excuse to blow monsters into chunks is great.

My problem with unrands is that they generally spawn too late. Zong is great if you find it early enough that skilling into Long Blades makes sense, but I'm not gonna ignore the 20+ points I have in some other combat skill if I find it in the V:5 loot.

It might be worth weighting item placement so characters are very likely to see an unrand in the first 20-ish levels they explore (or upweight them in acquirement?) to make the "should I change my planned character build?" gets the answer "yes" a little more often...

[Jeremiah]

If you're going to buff anything, how about making a the Sword of Cerebov, a "serpentine sword" into a unique item type that has the same base stats as a blessed triple sword, so characters who can kill Cerebov might actually have a reason to use it?

[khalil]

I just thought bad because polearm.

Wait, what? Polearms own.

Really? I never use them that often, so my thought was just based on the large min delay.

Yes, but what am I supposed to eat?

As others have said, permafood -- but you can learn OOD or petrify+LRD, both of which are good on their own. A weapon that gives you *another* excuse to blow monsters into chunks is great.

I was a worshiper of trog at the time. The hunger cost from brezerking might have been what made permafood unsustaneable for me, and Trog dislikes spellcasting, so that's out. Never really understood that about gods of war in most fantasy things. Instead of taking magic and using it to explode things, they just arbatrarily declare mages to be cowards. That's one of the few reasons I like Vehumet: First god of war I've seen support magic.

If you're going to buff anything, how about making a the Sword of Cerebov, a "serpentine sword" into a unique item type that has the same base stats as a blessed triple sword, so characters who can kill Cerebov might actually have a reason to use it?

I never got far enough in the game to look at Cerebov, let alone kill him, but looking at the wiki stats...
That's worse than everything here combined.
I'd have it give: Rf+++, Mr, and give it the stats of a triple sword. Perhaps some other resistances too, as if someone is powerfull enough to kill Cerebov even the most OP item would be just a drop into the ocean of their power.

[n1000]

My problem with unrands is that they generally spawn too late. Zong is great if you find it early enough that skilling into Long Blades makes sense, but I'm not gonna ignore the 20+ points I have in some other combat skill if I find it in the V:5 loot.

It might be worth weighting item placement so characters are very likely to see an unrand in the first 20-ish levels they explore (or upweight them in acquirement?) to make the "should I change my planned character build?" gets the answer "yes" a little more often...

There is a danger in upping early unrand occurrence too much and having too many games be defined by an early item pick up. It's very rare to find a randart early on (or at all, really) which matches your character well. This means randart games feel special, and it preserves the process of building a character up with the random items the dungeon floor provides. It would especially be too much to increase the incidence of randarts generating while also buffing the items.

I also want to say that in a recent game I went from having 20 polearms to training 24 long blades (-1 apts in each!) because Plutonium Sword is just that good!

[khalil]

a glaive has a min delay of 7 just like every other weapon with a base delay higher than 130%...

Sorry, meant base delay. I'm a bit suspicious of any weapon with a base delay higher than 120 that isn't exclusive to ogres and trolls. My problem, not the games.

[some12fat2move]

a glaive has a min delay of 7 just like every other weapon with a base delay higher than 130%...

Sorry, meant base delay. I'm a bit suspicious of any weapon with a base delay higher than 120 that isn't exclusive to ogres and trolls. My problem, not the games.

FYI short blades aren't typically the best weapons.

[khalil]

a glaive has a min delay of 7 just like every other weapon with a base delay higher than 130%...

Sorry, meant base delay. I'm a bit suspicious of any weapon with a base delay higher than 120 that isn't exclusive to ogres and trolls. My problem, not the games.

FYI short blades aren't typically the best weapons.

As I said, my problem.
As in, it's a problem, and I should probably stop.
Sort of like how I continue to play mummies. *bdumtish*

[njvack]

There is a danger in upping early unrand occurrence too much and having too many games be defined by an early item pick up

Absolutely. There's also a danger in making unrands too common so they seem less special. I certainly wouldn't advocate for making Hammertime Yiuf any more common.

But right now, my gut feels like too few of my games are defined by early(-ish) item pickups and that I don't get to see the mechanical uniqueness that's unrands. I've still never seen the Singing Sword

[khalil]

There is a danger in upping early unrand occurrence too much and having too many games be defined by an early item pick up

Absolutely. There's also a danger in making unrands too common so they seem less special. I certainly wouldn't advocate for making Hammertime Yiuf any more common.

But right now, my gut feels like too few of my games are defined by early(-ish) item pickups and that I don't get to see the mechanical uniqueness that's unrands. I've still never seen the Singing Sword

Don't worry. It sucks right now.

[njvack]

I understand that it's relatively weak. It still sounds awesome.

[galehar]

I understand that it's relatively weak. It still sounds awesome.

It does but you need a great sound system to fully enjoy it.

[khalil]

Are there any more comments as to my proposed changes? If not, I'll go code them up.

[BlackSheep]

The changes left in your OP are largely pointless. One would ruin an otherwise useful weapon. (prune)

[khalil]

The changes left in your OP are largely pointless. One would ruin an otherwise useful weapon. (prune)

I find the glave of prune to be pointless. It's boring.
There's nothing special about it other than a large number on the end.
I thought the stat death mechanic would make it a bit more interesting.

[khalil]

Here's a comment, they'd never get in. Don't waste your time coding them.

Thank you for your helpful feedback.

[nicolae]

Here's a comment, they'd never get in. Don't waste your time coding them.

Thank you for your helpful feedback.

"your idea will almost certainly never make it into the game" is probably the most helpful feedback someone can get in GDD

[khalil]

Here's a comment, they'd never get in. Don't waste your time coding them.

Thank you for your helpful feedback.

"your idea will almost certainly never make it into the game" is probably the most helpful feedback someone can get in GDD

Is that supposed to mean 'gdd never gives good feedback', or 'being told not to waste your time is the most helpfull thing someone can do'?
Not to be rude or anything, I just can't tell.

[BlackSheep]

Both minmay and nicolae were completely serious. Don't bother following up on the ideas you've listed. I thought that the general response from the thread was hint enough.

[khalil]

Both minmay and nicolae were completely serious. Don't bother following up on the ideas you've listed. I thought that the general response from the thread was hint enough.

Kay. Sorry, reading comprehension is not my thing.
To me most of the feedback looked like: These two ideas out of the ten or so are stupid, which I figured meant toss out those two instead of all of them.

[red_kangaroo]

I'm not sure about most of the unrands as I haven't ever bumped into them but at least the Sword of Cerebov deserves to be one of the most powerful weapons in game. Also, the Wrath of Trog overcoming clarity sounds very good. (And I mean it.)

[njvack]

Not that I'm sold on this proposal, but if you want to start learning to develop Crawl, these types of changes are probably pretty good places to start. They're fairly minor and would get you familiar with the codebase and build steps. And maybe you'd find it fun!

But... as far as I can tell, there's a lot more to getting changes into Crawl than "here is my proposal and a patch implementing it." You'll need buy-in from the dev team; ##crawl-dev is probably a good place to hang out for that.

[evilmike]

But... as far as I can tell, there's a lot more to getting changes into Crawl than "here is my proposal and a patch implementing it." You'll need buy-in from the dev team; ##crawl-dev is probably a good place to hang out for that.

Well, if your patch is of good quality and is in-line with the game's philosophy, it can actually be that simple (you might need to nag a dev for attention, but just get on IRC and feel free to bug people). It always helps to join ##crawl-dev and talk about design issues and stuff though, especially if you're new to contributing.

For big patches that take a lot of work, it's always a good idea to get first the go-ahead for it though.

[headcrab0803]

what about singing sword giving random buffs since some charms are called war chants

[khalil]

what about singing sword giving random buffs since some charms are called war chants

That... that would be interesting.
Like the chaos brand, but haste effects and so on would hit you, and it would only activate when the sword starts to scream.