Vestibule Violator
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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Vestibule Violator
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Dungeon Master
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minmay wrote:Graying out challenge/bizarre species on the selection screen is a great idea. It's immediately obvious to new players what it means.
Snake Sneak
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MarvintheParanoidAndroid wrote:minmay wrote:Graying out challenge/bizarre species on the selection screen is a great idea. It's immediately obvious to new players what it means.
I've heard a lot of people say that when they were new, they thought grey items on the species/background selection screen were banned entirely.
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Swamp Slogger
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Run from kobolds until you reach lv2.
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Halls Hopper
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minmay wrote:Another thing: Transmuter should be a recommended background for ogres. It's a lot easier than wizard, that's for sure.
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Spider Stomper
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minmay wrote:- A not inconsiderable number of vocal people complain about ogres being weak.
- Almost nobody complains about mummies being weak.
Now, I find ogres in gameplay to be plenty enjoyable, and they don't need a change there. Same with mummies. However, mummies are immediately expected to be pretty weak: monster mummies are slow, weak, and only threatening because of their death curse (which obviously doesn't matter for player mummies). Added to this, in popular culture mummies are only one step above zombies. Ogres...well, as you can see, people have different expectations.
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Snake Sneak
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MrMisterMonkey wrote:"mummies don't have to worry about hunger, but hunger is mostly irrelevant anyway, and especially so for far more proficient spellcasters"
"deep elves are good at casting but so are other races and they aren't near as fragile"
"demigods have good stats but other races are just fine and can also take gods"
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vintermann wrote: As I said, Mummies have character
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Tartarus Sorceror
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MrMisterMonkey wrote:(ogres have character too. everyone has character except for maybe some of the middling strength races like minotaurs vs mountain dwarves. that or I don't know what you mean by character.)
(also the quotes weren't in support of any ogre proposal; they were simply to refute a silly point by applying a similar line of reasoning to other races)
(also this is stupid and I'll kindly shut up if you kindly shut up)
((and maybe even if you don't; who knows))
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dpeg wrote:A level 5 OgFi with Fighting 2 has 48 HP. And they level very quickly. Sure, they're not sturdy, but they live up to the beefiness expectations.
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pratamawirya wrote:evktalo wrote:Going against expectations (esp. new players') is a very good point.
It is... as long as the player finds it to be cool and fun.
Trying a race which is normally big, bad, and mean but finding it to be rather crappy instead... now that's not really cool.
Halls Hopper
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omndra wrote:I have NO problems with having challenge Races.
(My signature is proof of this, Losing is fun!)
However, It is a BIG mistake to have Ogres fill in that gap. (It is by far the worst design choice made by the devs for this game IMHO)
In the CrawlWiki guide to Ogre wanderers it states.Run from kobolds until you reach lv2.
A lone Kobold should never be able to take down an Ogre.
I mean even in Crawl's arena this kind of thing doesn't happen.
(respawn ogre v kobold- Each ogre can take down an average of 5-10 kobolds before going down)
I think that if changes are made (and they should be)
Then a new Challenge race should be thought up that would be similar to the ogre how it is now.... ONLY HARDER!
So far all i've been getting from the opposing argument is a fear of change.
Thats not a good enough reason for me to be happy.
See when i think of Ogres I think of this.
It seems like Ogres in DC:SS are more like this right now.
Why not have the current ogre class renamed to Big Kobolds?
Thats an in game Mob that no one cares about. It would definatly shut me up, AND i would not demand a new Ogre Race to be inserted.
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casmith789 wrote:Ogres get a lot of hp but low defences. If you think about this, you should expect it.
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Curio wrote:casmith789 wrote:Ogres get a lot of hp but low defences. If you think about this, you should expect it.
What makes you think that?
Blades Runner
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Blades Runner
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galehar wrote:Curio wrote:casmith789 wrote:Ogres get a lot of hp but low defences. If you think about this, you should expect it.
What makes you think that?
Well, they do have the 2nd highest HP of the game.
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smock wrote:Change ogre's description....
from: "Large and strong, they're mostly seen as brutes. Ogres are very comfortable with the basics of magic, however."
to: "Large, strong and deadly with hurled boulders, but surprisingly frail. Though unintelligent brutes, Ogres nonetheless can successfully dabble in any school of magic."
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dpeg wrote:Personally, I think this discussion is finished. Some people are not happy with ogres as they are. Okay. Ignoring all the comments about "Ogre Runts" and "Hobgoblins" (come on folks, you can do better), what remains is that ogres are somewhat weaker than your powerhouse species. Okay! I've player and divine warnings about removing all challenge species, too. Cannot please them all, and I think that a number of players and all developers who commented on the issue agree that Ogres have a niche.
They will benefit a lot from making Fighting give species-dependent HP, and we can talk about aptitudes. (By the way, there was some idea about changing recommended combos -- can you wikify that or come to crawl-dev?)
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