Let fighters start with a buckler

[argonaut]

I think this change would make the Fighter background quite a bit more versatile. There are a number of advantages I see to this:

1) Bucklers are easier to use and require less skill to offset penalties.
2) It makes it practical to start as a fighter and quickly branch into magic (Kiku or Vehumet especially) without having to throw away your shield.
3) If you want to go the 1h+shield melee route then finding a larger shield is more exciting - like finding a good weapon type to replace your starter weapon.

[Kalma]

2) I don't think it should be practical for fighter background to branch into magic.

[dck]

@Kalma: Why not?

Anyway, thing about Fi is their shields aren't bad at all for the background, they're actually pretty nice for a while since your body armour screws with your EV royally already, your dex isn't anything to write home about and shields are kinda like huge fake EV boards for a very decent chunk of the game.
Their problem is other backgrounds like say Gl, As or Wr start also with good defenses, weapons and then something else like nets, blowgun, ?blink and a book etc. Fi just have their shield which makes up a bit for their bad defenses and that's about it.

Maybe if Fi entered the dungeon with more less str, more dex and a say +1 ring mail a buckler would be a buff to the background (at least in my eyes it'd make them more versatile, if still worse than aforementioned backgrounds), as they stand they enter it with a pretty awful scale mail so making their shield smaller doesn't really help them that much if at all.

[Volteccer_Jack]

1) At the beginning of the game (the only part of the game where starting package matters) a shield helps a Fighter more than a buckler.
2) You can easily switch to lighter armour and keep the shield while casting. If you are with Vehumet, the wizardry bonus allows you to keep both.
3) The whole reason you created this thread is that certain characters will want a buckler rather than a full shield, so all you're doing is making shield finds 'exciting' for different characters.

[Klown]

I like it as a Knight-like heavy armor & shield class. Bucklers are pretty common, it's not the end of the world to start gladiator and turn it into a fighter of choice.

[crate]

bucklers dont block shit

regular shields at least do something

[johlstei]

That is very silly @Kalma, every race and background combo can (and probably should) branch into magic. I personally think one should abandon trog when they get a good weapon and berserk stops being so useful, I guess you could debate that.

[Zammy]

That is very silly @Kalma, every race and background combo can (and probably should) branch into magic. I personally think one should abandon trog when they get a good weapon and berserk stops being so useful, I guess you could debate that.

I personally don't see any reason why every combo should go into magic. There are tons of evocables to patch up the lack of magic.
At least I've played most my games, including many 15 runers without casting a single spell.

I do understand that crawl wants to give more flexibility and not force every game in a certain mould defined by backround, but its erves no purpose to make it as easy as possible to allow every backround branch into magic (or fighting, for that matter).

Fighters are supposed to be well armored and well protected. Hence it doesn't make much sence to change the shield to buckler. OP is just trying to turn fighters to what gladiators used to be.

[duvessa]

how about instead of changing Fi from "worse Gl" to "worse Gl" we remove it

[Sandman25]

I think Fi is better than Gl for characters who are going to use heavy armour (DD, HO of Beogh).

[some12fat2move]

about Fighter vs Gladiatior:
I might choose Fighter over Gladiator if I am absolutely dead-set on my plan for this character being a means of killing dudes that isn't impeded by a shield, like slings or nemelex. Otherwise I would prefer gladiator because the shield doesn't mean as much to me when I'm going to throw it away for a 2-hander or spellbook.

to the OP:
Gladiators are the versatile melee background. They get a decent weapon and nets, nothing that prevents them from branching out and using whatever they find. Making Fighters more like this would be a bad thing since it would reduce differentiation.

I think Fi is better than Gl for characters who are going to use heavy armour (DD, HO of Beogh).

I don't see how "characters who are going to use heavy armor" benefit any less from throwing nets or benefit any more from a shield. In fact, I think they benefit less from a shield because heavy armor discourages magic as a means of killing stuff so are they are more likely to rely on melee damage to kill stuff and therefore more likely to prefer a 2-hander to a shield and therefore are slightly less interested in starting with a shield.

[crate]

  Code:

<Sequell> 13/45 games for crate ((fi || gl)): 7/33x Gladiator [21.21%], 6/12x Fighter [50.00%]

clearly fighter is better than gladiator

Anyway the real reason Fi is never getting a buckler instead of a regular shield is twofold. 1) As I said above, bucklers are mostly pointless (you can argue that regular shields aren't much better but they do unarguably block more attacks). 2) It would make it even less distinct from gladiator (buckler is much closer to no shield at all than regular shield is).

[Sandman25]

I think Fi is better than Gl for characters who are going to use heavy armour (DD, HO of Beogh).

I don't see how "characters who are going to use heavy armor" benefit any less from throwing nets or benefit any more from a shield. In fact, I think they benefit less from a shield because heavy armor discourages magic as a means of killing stuff so are they are more likely to rely on melee damage to kill stuff and therefore more likely to prefer a 2-hander to a shield and therefore are slightly less interested in starting with a shield.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14-a0-992-g52bae1d (tiles) character file.

A the Shield-Bearer (Deep Dwarf Fighter)               Turns: 0, Time: 00:00:06

HP  21/21        AC  7     Str 19      XL: 1   Next:  0%
MP   0/0         EV  6     Int  8      God:
Gold 0           SH 20     Dex 12      Spells:  0 memorised,  0 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .   a - +0 dwarf hand axe
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   b - +0 dwarf scale mail
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   c - +0 dwarf shield
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   (no helmet)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   (no cloak)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   (no gloves)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (no boots)
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   (no amulet)
Saprovore : . . .                    (no ring)
                                     (no ring)

Armour
 b - a +0 dwarven scale mail (worn)
 c - a +0 dwarven shield (worn)

   Skills:
 + Level 2.6 Fighting
 + Level 2.1 Axes
 + Level 3.2 Armour
 + Level 3.2 Shields


  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14-a0-992-g52bae1d (tiles) character file.

B the Ducker (Deep Dwarf Gladiator)                    Turns: 0, Time: 00:00:01

HP  20/20        AC  4     Str 18      XL: 1   Next:  0%
MP   0/0         EV 12     Int  8      God:
Gold 0           SH  0     Dex 13      Spells:  0 memorised,  0 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .   a - +0 dwarf hand axe
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   b - +0 leather armour
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   c - +0 dwarf helmet
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   (no cloak)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   (no gloves)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (no boots)
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   (no amulet)
Saprovore : . . .                    (no ring)
                                     (no ring)
Armour
 b - a +0 leather armour (worn)
 
   Skills:
 + Level 1.7 Fighting
 + Level 3.2 Axes
 + Level 1.7 Throwing
 + Level 3.2 Dodging


Higher Fighting/AC/Armour, lower Dodging/EV, no useless Throwing.
As a spell-less character (caused by heavy armour) I don't care about Shield penalty for spellcasting either.

[johlstei]

The useless throwing is replaced by even more useless shields.

[Sandman25]

The useless throwing is replaced by even more useless shields.

Yes, 59 SH is absolutely useless in 3-rune game.

  Code:

8293301 DDFi the Peltast (level 27, 152/249 (253) HPs)
             Began as a Deep Dwarf Fighter on May 9, 2013.
             Was a High Priest of Makhleb.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 11 runes on May 13, 2013!
             
             The game lasted 23:14:30 (109042 turns).

DDFi the Peltast (Deep Dwarf Fighter)             Turns: 109042, Time: 23:14:31

HP 152/249 (253) AC 50     Str 23      XL: 27
MP   6/37        EV 28     Int 17      God: Makhleb [*****.]
Gold 151         SH 59     Dex 11      Spells: 16 memorised,  3 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : +   P - +8,+7 dwarf war axe
Res.Cold  : + . .   Warding    : +   q - +10 pearl dragon armour
Life Prot.: + + +   Conserve   : .   Z - +8 large shield of Ignorance {rN+ AC+2 EV+
}: 11/15 runes: decaying, serpentine, slimy, silver, golden, abyssal, demonic,
glowing, magical, fiery, dark


Hand weapons
 H - a +7,+6 hand axe of pain (quivered) {!f}
 P - a +8,+7 dwarven war axe (weapon)

- Level 19,1 Necromancy



[Klown]

Fighter shouldn't get changed or removed imo. It's the cool old fashioned knight who fights in impenetrable armor and a shield for another layer of protection. Not some robe wearing spellcasting candlestick.

[Tiktacy]

I for one think that this thread should be moved to advice, most comments are related to shields usefulness, not changing the fighter class(which is kind of a silly idea anyway IMO).

[Sandman25]

I accidentally found a nice thread about Shield usefulness yesterday. I didn't expect there is no consensus on that issue even among counsellors.

[duvessa]

why is changing Fi silly? it's extremely close to several other backgrounds (Gl, Mo, As) and is way weaker than Gl or As (except for maybe like one race). seems like a good background to change or remove, to me.

[some12fat2move]

Well I could point out some stuff that sandman ignored in his "comparison" (like, uh, throwing nets) but that obviously won't go anywhere because lol sandman and anyway it would only increase the derail. The OPs proposal has been pretty thoroughly rejected on all fronts and we're kinda drifting away so how about a lock?

[Sandman25]

Well I could point out some stuff that sandman ignored in his "comparison" (like, uh, throwing nets) but that obviously won't go anywhere because lol sandman and anyway it would only increase the derail. The OPs proposal has been pretty thoroughly rejected on all fronts and we're kinda drifting away so how about a lock?

That wasn't very nice of you, but yes, you are right, I can't use nets effectively. For some reason they get frayed too soon. If you like starting equipment so much, start with curare, it is much better IMHO.

[reg]

I think fighters could stand to start with a beefier 1-hander for some of the types. If they are supposed to be the heavy-fighter types they could come with a Sabre/War Axe/Longsword/Trident/Flail to start.

[Tiktacy]

why is changing Fi silly? it's extremely close to several other backgrounds (Gl, Mo, As) and is way weaker than Gl or As (except for maybe like one race). seems like a good background to change or remove, to me.

Fighters might be similar, but they are also the only class that starts with a shield. Besides, each of the classes you mentioned have implied skill orientation:

-Gl is more 2-handed weapon oriented

-Monks are used for unarmed combat(usually with a lot of hybridization)

-Assassins are for stabbers or blowgun users(which are usually one in the same)

-And finally, Fi's are for tanky shield wielding power-houses.

In my opinions, that sounds pretty differentiated. I am always open for new ideas, but unfilling an important niche in gameplay is something I will usually be against.

[duvessa]

they already get tridents
it'd probably be better to increase the enchantment since they also start with 2 weapon skill and missing everything is not very fun
i guess another option is to start them with more than 2 weapon skill; Gl gets 3 currently

i also really wish tiktacy would stick with her genuinely humourous trolling (like that post in the muck thread) instead of derailing random gdd topics. i suppose i should go ahead and correct the misinformation: fighter starts with 3 shields skill. this is not a significant bias towards one-handed weapons. assassin does technically start with the stabbing skills, but it also starts with no way to actually stab things and book of maledictions doesn't really generate on d:1 and d:2 particularly often.

I didn't expect there is no consensus on that issue even among counsellors.

the thread you linked to is old enough that it could plausibly impersonate mikee_, i don't know of a single decent player (and certainly not any on tavern) who won't say basically the same things crate does about shields

[some12fat2move]

Well I could point out some stuff that sandman ignored in his "comparison" (like, uh, throwing nets) but that obviously won't go anywhere because lol sandman and anyway it would only increase the derail. The OPs proposal has been pretty thoroughly rejected on all fronts and we're kinda drifting away so how about a lock?

That wasn't very nice of you, but yes, you are right, I can't use nets effectively. For some reason they get frayed too soon. If you like starting equipment so much, start with curare, it is much better IMHO.

I'm sorry I wasn't very tactful about it - I don't want to insult you, I was just referring to how there is, well, a certain pattern to how these sorts of discussions you have with people here usually go.

If this thread is going to continue can we at least get some ideas for making the background more distinct? Because fighters are not the weakest background, they could probably use a little buff but it isn't crucial. Distinction on the other hand they could really use.

[dpeg]

I once suggested giving them one tactical tool, like a potion of might, but that was unanimously shot down as overpowered.

[Kalma]

That is very silly @Kalma, every race and background combo can (and probably should) branch into magic. I personally think one should abandon trog when they get a good weapon and berserk stops being so useful, I guess you could debate that.

Yes, to some degree, eventually. But it should be more practical to some than others.

[duvessa]

It already is, the backgrounds that start with books and/or more int are better at casting spells. And fighter has some of the worst int, just like you wanted!

[Hurkyl]

Aside: a spriggan fighter does start with a buckler.

[Jeremiah]

I once suggested giving them one tactical tool, like a potion of might, but that was unanimously shot down as overpowered.

What if they started out with potions of might, (and agility and berserk rage?) pre-identified even if they don't start with any in inventory? That way they would be able to use any that they found without wasting them by quaff-ID or waiting to get enough ID scrolls.

[dpeg]

Jeremiah: Yes, I like this idea and proposed something similar, but it didn't fly and wasn't dear enough to me to keep trying. (I think the other developers would rather restrict than expand the known-but-not-carried starting items.)

[1010011010]

How about the opposite, your given one unknown potion guaranteed to be good.

[tompliss]

Then I think we'll see many "has quit" looses next tournament, with a player waiting to get an XP potion...
If an idea like this one is kept, the available potion pool should be greatly reduced, I think ^^

[1010011010]

Of course, the potions should be limited to temporary effects. no XP or B. mutation.

[dpeg]

I think a random starting potion is even less likely to make it in than a fixed type

As I said, I didn't push the point back then, but my feeling was that Fighters take the shortest straw among the backgrounds without spells and god: except from Wanderers, everyone gets something for emergencies (nets, curare, ranged damage, wands) or at least makes a gamble (Monk). A single potion of Might should help fighters a bit, but not really very much -- or so I thought. I'd rather change Fi than remove it, so perhaps I should give it another try. (As for choice of potion: berserk is bad because of Be, and a proactive tool is more interesting than a reactive one, so Might > Heal Wounds, in my opinion.)

[Zammy]

What I don't understand here, is that so many claim that every backround should (or even must) branch into magic.
And the whole point for OP seemed to be to make the use of magic easier for fighters.
Is there really so severe imbalance between non-casters and casters?

Fighter might be a bit of an underdog when it comes to early game panic buttons. But I don't see it as bad of a class that it requires any changes. Shield and armour allready provide enough help against most foes in the easrly levels until you find someting to throw/quaff/zap.
The starting potion that dpeg suggested does sound like a good improvement. Since it basically can bail you out from one (1) tight spot. So it hardly seems overpowered.

[Sar]

What I don't understand here, is that so many claim that every backround should (or even must) branch into magic.

It's because Charms exist.

[Lasty]

What I don't understand here, is that so many claim that every backround should (or even must) branch into magic.
And the whole point for OP seemed to be to make the use of magic easier for fighters.
Is there really so severe imbalance between non-casters and casters?

The better players tend to advocate magic skills and weapon skills and defensive skills for all characters. This is because these are the three main categories of skills, and if you decide to skip one you're probably missing out on some available resources that will help you deal with enemies and survive.

Newer players tend to assume that weapon skills and magic skills are opposed in some way, but this is not the case. Slightly less new players tend to see heavy armour and magic skills as opposed, but that's not true either. Heavy armour use just requires you to pay a tax of some extra stat points and XP in exchange for the privilege of using it.

[Zammy]

What I don't understand here, is that so many claim that every backround should (or even must) branch into magic.
And the whole point for OP seemed to be to make the use of magic easier for fighters.
Is there really so severe imbalance between non-casters and casters?

The better players tend to advocate magic skills and weapon skills and defensive skills for all characters. This is because these are the three main categories of skills, and if you decide to skip one you're probably missing out on some available resources that will help you deal with enemies and survive.

Newer players tend to assume that weapon skills and magic skills are opposed in some way, but this is not the case. Slightly less new players tend to see heavy armour and magic skills as opposed, but that's not true either. Heavy armour use just requires you to pay a tax of some extra stat points and XP in exchange for the privilege of using it.

Then I guess you can call no slightly less new player, since in 3 rune game I really don't see there is enough exp to equally train everything. In my experience it is better to be good at one thing rather than suck in everything. So in the end it probably comes down to playing style.
I see ziggurat as the only place that really 'needs' to have magic. Everything else can be handeled quite easily withtout casting a single spell.

But you have a valid point that in most games weapons and magic are mutually exclusive and I bet people that are just starting to play will think that. And perhaps I'm still not quite over the part where heavy armour + huge shield do nasty things for my dreams of casting spells (especially combined with int of 7...)

btw, you left out invocation and evocation skills. So many skills, so little experience.

[dck]

There is much more experience than you need to cast spells and hit things with a weapon without "sucking at everything" in a three rune game.

[Sandman25]

I see ziggurat as the only place that really 'needs' to have magic.

Ziggurats can be cleared without any spells even by average players, not with every combo of course.

[One-Eyed Jack]

Is there really so severe imbalance between non-casters and casters?

this is like asking if there is a severe imbalance between characters that use rings and characters that don't use rings

[Sandman25]

The question should really be "Is there really so severe imbalance between non-casters and casters for specific species?" Yes, DE caster is much more powerful than DE non-caster, Mi caster is much less powerful than Mi non-caster.

Edit. I am talking about early game of course. MiFi with Haste is much more powerful than MiFi without Haste etc.

[Klown]

Fighters are underpowered?

[TeshiAlair]

1. Regarding spells on melee characters, I think thats a huge part of why "fighter skills" proposals show up every now and again. Some people want a balance between constant tabbing and needing to take spells, which is a niche only berserkers really fit currently (and maybe artificers if you chose that route

2. Regarding Fi changes, I kind of think it would be neat to give them a +1 weapon enchancement but make it an artefact so it can't be further improved ("naming it like <playername>'s favorite <weaponclass>" or something), to give a bit of early game boost but not terribly OP long run. I know it isn't as interactive as a potion or a scroll, but it might be a nice touch of flavor.

[Sar]

Fi starting weapons aren't something you'll want to stick with for a long time so I don't see why making it +1 and enchantable further would be OP in any way.

[duvessa]

Yeah my preferred fighter change is to give them a +2 (maybe even +3) weapon so that they're actually as good in melee as AK at least.
Making it an artefact would be completely pointless and bizarre though.

[dck]

Because then by snake: 3 people maybe be using their +6 falchion over anything else due to the better enchantment, in fact one may even claim that since it's a fast weapon and comes with guaranteed enchantment sticking to it until you find a triple sword might be a bit of a no brainer.

[BlackSheep]

Fi starting weapons aren't something you'll want to stick with for a long time so I don't see why making it +1 and enchantable further would be OP in any way.

Agreed. The key is to last until they find something better, in what is usually the hardest part of the game. They should get something to make up for what they don't get.

[Klown]

Fighters are underpowered?

^Why are they seen as UP by some?