Opinions on lava orcs?

[Tiktacy]

Personally, I think hill orcs are silly. The idea is cool, but they lack anything interesting beyond their unique tension-based heating mechanism, which is cool at first but just over all feels too gimmicky for a crawl species. That's just my opinion though, i'de like to know what everyone else thinks.

[Kate]

(Edit: Removed the poll, "some race feels gimmicky" does not look like a particularly worthwhile thread though).

[nicolae]

Personally, I think hill orcs are silly. The idea is cool, but they lack anything interesting beyond their unique tension-based heating mechanism, which is cool at first but just over all feels too gimmicky for a crawl species. That's just my opinion though, i'de like to know what everyone else thinks.

at least they're not djinn

[Klown]

I like the Essence mechanic a lot more personally.
I dislike that they are 'orcs' instead of magma golems.

Btw devs, will the two above mentioned species remain in trunk if they continue to not make stable releases?

[archaeo]

I mean, LO are much less broken now that the speed mechanics have been removed. Now, you're left with a species that gets rF+ and loses scrolls with tension. What more can be added or taken away for it to be considered "ready for release"?

Personally, I think you decouple temperature from tension and make it an ability with a silence-like cooldown that also sets an exh timer. Upon activation, it gives rF+++ and heat aura, with both things decreasing in ability until you're back at 0, followed by a few more turns of exh. Scrolls are disabled for the entirety of the ability's duration, including exh.

That's just off the top of my head though, and I don't know or really think it's an improvement. If LO are missing something, what is it?

[dpeg]

Btw devs, will the two above mentioned species remain in trunk if they continue to not make stable releases?

As long as someone in the devteam sees potential, they can stay. I myself see no principal reason why Djinn shouldn't work -- I think they start with an interesting combination.

I never really understood the point of Lava Orcs, and the name may always have been part of the problem. (Similar to how Formicids are much better than Dwarf Ants -- the latter made it look like a joke species.)

[johlstei]

If they stay lava orcs I think they should sometimes appear in the dungeon and be recruitable by Beoghites. Lava Orc fire elementalists or something might be an interesting addition. (An enemy casting conjure flame would be cool though I guess someone would have to write the AI for it.) I wish they could use the fire aura and not hurt allies when worshipping beogh because *insert flavour*, but I understand if devs don't want the inconsistency.

vvv You really enjoy food enough that you want to get rid of a fun no-food aspect of a race? I feel like food adds very little to the game for non-healers, I'd rather see other species move towards djinn than the opposite. Spells/God powers are limited by mana, rod users by charges. Starving to death is very rare afaik. I guess removing it would be a big buff to spriggans/invisibility, maybe we ought to think about that, but I don't think it is that big a deal, especially since invis causes contamination. The fact that djinn aren't ridiculously overpowered seems like evidence to me that food isn't all that necessary, though maybe that is why wucad mu doesn't work on them? I guess I figured it was more the health channeling than the food cost.

[nicolae]

I like the Essence mechanic a lot more personally.

I like the Essence mechanic too, at least in concept, but to me, Djinn seem like a mess of a number of unique mechanics, any one of which could define a species on its own, but smushed together into one. (At the very least, if I had to make a change while keeping Essence, I'd get rid of the "no food clock" and "hunger costs cause contamination" features. Surely even sentient flame needs fuel.)

[spudwalt]

I think Djinn not being able to use Wucad Mu is more because one of the possible side-effects is losing a huge chunk of MP. They could conceivably poof themselves out of existence by screwing up a channeling attempt.

[brendan]

I never really understood the point of Lava Orcs, and the name may always have been part of the problem. (Similar to how Formicids are much better than Dwarf Ants -- the latter made it look like a joke species.)

I've been bikeshedding for Salamanders as a thematic alternative. I believe that removing speed shifting moved them closer to being playable. Heat aura seems to be a blocker for using them with Beogh, so I don't see an advantage to retaining the orc shtick.

[Tiktacy]

I never really understood the point of Lava Orcs, and the name may always have been part of the problem. (Similar to how Formicids are much better than Dwarf Ants -- the latter made it look like a joke species.)

I've been bikeshedding for Salamanders as a thematic alternative. I believe that removing speed shifting moved them closer to being playable. Heat aura seems to be a blocker for using them with Beogh, so I don't see an advantage to retaining the orc shtick.

Salamanders sounds a lot more fitting IMO.

[siprus]

I agree name is the part of the problem, but my vote will still be volcano dwarves! (though any name is better than lava orc)

[Tiktacy]

I agree name is the part of the problem, but my vote will still be volcano dwarves! (though any name is better than lava orc)

Dynamo Dwarves FTW.

[nicolae]

I agree name is the part of the problem, but my vote will still be volcano dwarves! (though any name is better than lava orc)

the next dwarf species should be Fountain Dwarves, imo

[DracheReborn]

I kind of like LO but think they are too similar to HO. Re-flavouring them as salamanders would be great.

I think LO are a fun way to play weakish backgrounds because heat aura is strong early on and can help you survive until you get other skills going. I particularly like playing them as Tm since IMO they play differently from Mf (the "standard" Tm race). A signature Fire/Transmut spell would be nice to differentiate them further (no, not Ignite Poison ). Dragon Form might have been it, if Dragon Form had stayed Fire/Tm but at lower spell level instead of becoming single school but remaining at L7.

[Tiber]

I've thought salamanders make sense for a while now. Would they also use naga barding then?

[dpeg]

I've been bikeshedding for Salamanders as a thematic alternative. I believe that removing speed shifting moved them closer to being playable. Heat aura seems to be a blocker for using them with Beogh, so I don't see an advantage to retaining the orc shtick.

This sounds great to me!

[Siegurt]

I've been bikeshedding for Salamanders as a thematic alternative. I believe that removing speed shifting moved them closer to being playable. Heat aura seems to be a blocker for using them with Beogh, so I don't see an advantage to retaining the orc shtick.

This sounds great to me!

I'd probably move their weapon proficiency from axes to polearms if I did that, personally.

[sanka]

I'd give them the same aptitude for all weapons, because that's usually much more interesting in practice, and gameplay triumphs flavor.

[Hirsch I]

could give them a flame branded UC, that could be fun.

[amethystdeceivers]

Salamanders seems a little more interesting thematically than an orc variant.

[WalkerBoh]

I'm all aboard the salamander train.

[TeshiAlair]

It has been a while since I played a LO, but I think they would be more interesting overall if their abilities were based on desperation, aka, scaled off of %hp %mp rather than tension or whatever they use now (unless that has been changed.)

[red_kangaroo]

It has been a while since I played a LO, but I think they would be more interesting overall if their abilities were based on desperation, aka, scaled off of %hp %mp rather than tension or whatever they use now (unless that has been changed.)

Sounds good.

[XuaXua]

It has been a while since I played a LO, but I think they would be more interesting overall if their abilities were based on desperation, aka, scaled off of %hp %mp rather than tension or whatever they use now (unless that has been changed.)

Sounds good.

I agree; could be related to increased exposure to the hot inner core of the LO as it is damaged/burned away by combat (or lava).
Should be nearly impossible state to achieve while standing in water, possibly based on the number of adjacent water spaces.

[siprus]

Hmm This would make the ability much more usable. As getting to high tension is something you really generally want to avoid.

Do fire and ice spells effect your temperature? Personally i think they should, same with berserk. Basically your HP could rise the temperature to around 75% (maybe even to 100%) of the current maxium. And other things could add 50% Of course if your temperature goes over 100% It just means that it take longer for you to cooldown. Temperature risen by hp would come back as hit point are recovered (though maybe with some delay if you use potion 3-5 turns?) And the other 50% lower with time or getting hit/casting ice spell.

[dpeg]

It has been a while since I played a LO, but I think they would be more interesting overall if their abilities were based on desperation, aka, scaled off of %hp %mp rather than tension or whatever they use now (unless that has been changed.)

I tried to use ideas like this for DS powers (something increases the lower your HP) but then some good people convinced me that this is the wrong approach: Crawl is very much a safety first game, and you will never want to gamble away your Health. If you are at low health, you don't want to fight, but to get out.

[Wahaha]

The difference between this LO suggestion and old Ds augmentation is that LO get bonuses at low temperature (at high health) - extra AC, and they also don't have negatives that they would have at low health - no rC-, can read scrolls. This means that being at low temperature isn't directly worse than being at high temp, health not considered. While their bonuses change depending on temperature and health, there's no attempt to make it desirable to fight while at low health (unlike old Ds aug, as you said this kind of attempt would fail). It just means that the bonuses and drawbacks of LO change as their health changes, which could be interesting. And while it is indeed not desirable to be at low health, it doesn't mean it doesn't regularly happen. It also further doesn't mean that fighting at low health doesn't happen, it does, although mostly in lower levels. In places with torment too but those don't matter much.

One thing that I'd like to see is the return of slow -> normal -> fast movement speed, and this time with temperature directly depending on % of health. Alternatively the temperature can increase with damage taken, and cool off at a certain rate. Regardless of which of these two temperature mechanics is used, a LO would have to take damage to gain normal speed, and then take more damage to gain fast speed. The initial slow speed means that it WILL have to get adjacent to normal speed enemies and take damage before being able to even gain normal speed. This is completely different from how it worked with temperature based on tension.

Edit: I don't think this race is particularly interesting and if variable movement speed can't be used I'd prefer if the race didn't exist, because it's pretty boring and HO. I don't think bonuses changing depending on health has much potential to be interesting either, but it's better than tension.

[WalkerBoh]

It just means that the bonuses and drawbacks of LO change as their health changes, which could be interesting.

I agree with this statement, it would definitely be an improvement over using tension. I don't know if I like the idea of reimplementing movement speed as an effect - it would less gameable if linked to hp, but still somewhat tedious to micromanage and keep track of I think - but the overall idea is sound.

[Tiber]

It has been a while since I played a LO, but I think they would be more interesting overall if their abilities were based on desperation, aka, scaled off of %hp %mp rather than tension or whatever they use now (unless that has been changed.)

I tried to use ideas like this for DS powers (something increases the lower your HP) but then some good people convinced me that this is the wrong approach: Crawl is very much a safety first game, and you will never want to gamble away your Health. If you are at low health, you don't want to fight, but to get out.

I always thought that the point of gaining powers at low health was not to encourage or reward being at low health (except in some games where this might be considered a challenge run), but to offer a sort of consolation prize, and a chance to turn a bad situation around. I personally think the idea is worth a shot; it's no more drastic than the rune lock, and the problems with the current temperature system are well known.

[TeshiAlair]

Additionally, as a DS mutation, it is moderately drastic as far as game strategy goes. But making health gambling be part of the appeal of a race has its value, in the same way that nutrition gambling is part of the tactics of a Vampire (to some extent, though it is both easier and more beneficial to stick to the extremes in that case).

I would aim for the balance being exponential if possible: The difference between 100% and 50% isn't great, but 50% and 25% is much more noticeable, to discourage the tedium of walking around at 50% all the time. The mechanic should feel "clutch" more than "find the perfect point via gratuitous '5' "

I realize this approach would change the overall feel of Lava Orcs quite a bit, but IMO in a beneficial way.

[galehar]

I always thought that the point of gaining powers at low health was not to encourage or reward being at low health (except in some games where this might be considered a challenge run), but to offer a sort of consolation prize, and a chance to turn a bad situation around.

Gaining power when losing health isn't game breaking. It doesn't encourage degenerated or tedious behaviours. It's just not very interesting because no matter how good it is, you'd likely to just ignore it. It doesn't really affect how you play the game, it just helps you when things go bad. The ultimate "low health power" is god life saving. It's nice, but it doesn't change how you play the game, you still try to not die.

[XuaXua]

Has the concept actually been playtested, or are conclusions simply being drawn?

[crate]

The "low health powers are not interesting" thing has been playtested, see the old version of the Augmentation mutation for demonspawn (gave slaying/enhancers at low hp). It was generally considered boring and mostly useless, and for good reason.

It now works the opposite way and is dramatically more fun and useful.