Cheibriados (was: Formicids)

[Tiktacy]

The discussion is about Chei and the haste effect. Learning the spell has nothing to do with anything.

haste has nothing to do with haste....

[Tiktacy]

My question for everyone is this: is there any point in the game where you have been playing Chei and died that you felt you would have survived if you had haste available. This is only applicable if you also used bend time during this particular fight at least once.

(Keep in mind, we are not talking about the movement bonus for escaping, we are talking specifically about the haste argument)

[Mankeli]

My question for everyone is this: is there any point in the game where you have been playing Chei and died that you felt you would have survived if you had haste available. This is only applicable if you also used bend time during this particular fight at least once.

(Keep in mind, we are not talking about the movement bonus for escaping, we are talking specifically about the haste argument)

I'm seriously confused here: How does your use of haste not include using it for escaping/walking past things id est using haste for movement? How can you talk about haste while ignoring movement? Do we need to split this into yet another thread because you refuse to believe that Chei isn't the best and haste doesn't suck? Maybe in the advice section this time?

[rebthor]

My question for everyone is this: is there any point in the game where you have been playing Chei and died that you felt you would have survived if you had haste available. This is only applicable if you also used bend time during this particular fight at least once.

(Keep in mind, we are not talking about the movement bonus for escaping, we are talking specifically about the haste argument)

Yes, as a matter of fact.
4 Pots of speed available. Couldn't run from Maud though, which I wouldn't have needed to had I been able to either move at normal speed or attack at 1.5x. Granted I also had a very bad port but I wouldn't have died with a troll if I could have moved.

[Tiktacy]

My question for everyone is this: is there any point in the game where you have been playing Chei and died that you felt you would have survived if you had haste available. This is only applicable if you also used bend time during this particular fight at least once.

(Keep in mind, we are not talking about the movement bonus for escaping, we are talking specifically about the haste argument)

I'm seriously confused here: How does your use of haste not include using it for escaping/walking past things id est using haste for movement? How can you talk about haste while ignoring movement? Do we need to split this into yet another thread because you refuse to believe that Chei isn't the best and haste doesn't suck? Maybe in the advice section this time?

1) I don't think he is the best, I think he is somewhere in the middle.
2) I use haste on nearly every character not involving Chei.
3) movement speed is NOT the main argument of haste, it's increasing action speed. Also, we are talking about hasting while being a Chei follower, Chei decreases movement speed to impossibly slow levels, haste will do almost nothing to assist in that.

Now do you require further assistance?

[Tiktacy]

My question for everyone is this: is there any point in the game where you have been playing Chei and died that you felt you would have survived if you had haste available. This is only applicable if you also used bend time during this particular fight at least once.

(Keep in mind, we are not talking about the movement bonus for escaping, we are talking specifically about the haste argument)

Yes, as a matter of fact.
4 Pots of speed available. Couldn't run from Maud though, which I wouldn't have needed to had I been able to either move at normal speed or attack at 1.5x. Granted I also had a very bad port but I wouldn't have died with a troll if I could have moved.

You had 14 mp, why didn't you step from time? You died from user error, not haste.

Edit: I often forget to use my abilities while using Chei, so I understand the mistake. Playing Chei makes for a pretty big change in gameplay, so it's understandable that you might forget about certain things.

[dck]

Out of sick curiosity, who do you believe chei is superior to?

[Tiktacy]

Out of sick curiosity, who do you believe chei is superior to?

Beogh, Kiku, zin(unless you do extended), fedhas, and xom. I think he is about on par Ely and jiyva, that's where I put him. That's pretty subjective though.

[dck]

ahahahaha

[Mankeli]

You had 14 mp, why didn't you step from time? You died from user error, not haste.

Edit: I often forget to use my abilities while using Chei, so I understand the mistake. Playing Chei makes for a pretty big change in gameplay, so it's understandable that you might forget about certain things.

With that invo and piety, the fail rate for step from time would be about 45 %. Now add to that that invo also has an effect on what SfT actually does if you get past the 45 fail rate and note 6,9 is not that much of invo at all.

Now, you having done that, please explain to me how stepping from time with Chei in this situation is better than moving away from Maud with speed pot with some other not slowed-the-f-down-because-of-Chei character?

[Sandman25]

For me Chei is more powerful than some other gods because I like to play alone (without summons/allies). It makes Chei superior to Beogh (1 win), Yred (best char died in Vaults), Fedhas (died in ZoT5) and Kiku (1 win) but of course I realize it is like playing Trog without using weapon gifts or any god abilities, Trog is very weak in this case
I feel Chei is stronger than Sif Muna (best char died in Lair), though maybe it is affected by boredom to channel mana and luck with books.

[rebthor]

but of course I realize it is like playing Trog without using weapon gifts or any god abilities, Trog is very weak in this case.

You know what would make Trog weaker? If he made you slower.

[Klown]

ahahahaha

Keep in mind different playstyles can lead to different opinions and results.

[Sar]

Kiku is probably fine without allies because of Agony and pain (brand).
Sif... well Sif doesn't make you slow (and can even gift Swiftness/Haste!), though Sif isn't the funnest god yeah.
I'm not sure how can you play Fedhas/Kiku and Chei games and say "Yep, Chei is totally better".

[Sandman25]

but of course I realize it is like playing Trog without using weapon gifts or any god abilities, Trog is very weak in this case.

You know what would make Trog weaker? If he made you slower.

I think Trog with slow movement would still be playable. Or alternatively Chei without slow movement would be the best god (Trog).

[Sandman25]

I'm not sure how can you play Fedhas/Kiku and Chei games and say "Yep, Chei is totally better".

Please see below

Keep in mind different playstyles can lead to different opinions and results.

Edit. Actually you can read threads for my games with Kiku, Fedhas and see me complaining about feeling too weak. I didn't feel weak with Chei except once with NaVm who had problems with Wraiths before Lair.

[Sar]

By "different playstyles" I assume you mean "pushing buttons at random and never using non-Chei gods' abilities"?

[Sandman25]

By "different playstyles" I assume you mean "pushing buttons at random and never using non-Chei gods' abilities"?

Yes, you guessed it. I tend to forget about god abilities too often. I like gods with passive bonuses (like Ash, Chei or Vehumet).

[Sar]

I guess gods with active abilities are not very good if you don't use them then.

Spoiler: show

At least they don't slow you down.

[Tiktacy]

I guess gods with active abilities are not very good if you don't use them then.

Spoiler: show

At least they don't slow you down.

One of trogs abilities causes slowness...

[Sar]

That's why you set up fights in a way you don't have enemies around you when it runs out.
Btw I used Trog on characters who couldn't even Berserk. It was fine.

[Tiktacy]

That's why you set up fights in a way you don't have enemies around you when it runs out.
Btw I used Trog on characters who couldn't even Berserk. It was fine.

Lol it was mostly a joke.

Anyway, I think this thread should be locked. The arguments for and against Chei are not making any progress since everyone is so stubborn. I don't think Chei needs a buff at all, he is just fine as he is. If this isn't locked, then it should be moved to advice instead, or better yet; CYC. This thread hardly counts as game development.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Well, there's some good things in a few posts, but it has mostly devolved into a "NO IT ISN'T!" "YES IT IS!" shouting match.

Anyway, I find Chei to be quite powerful but very difficult to leverage. If you can make Chei and his abilities work entirely to your benefit, then he's ridiculous. I mean, how often can you 2-shot kill The Royal Jelly or Mennas with a melee attack? A Transmuter in Dragon form following Chei can (that character was the tankiest thing I had ever built). However, most characters (and a lot of players) cannot fully utilize his abilities since following Chei means approaching the game entirely differently and said approach may be less effective than a more standard approach with another god.

For example, on said Transmuter, I found it was often safer to engage packs of monsters in the open rather than luring to a corridor (until I had cBlink, but I didn't find that or regular Blink until I had three runes if memory serves correctly). Especially if they were ranged attackers since they could take a dozen potshots as I hauled my slow ass to a corridor but hitting Temporal Distortion a few times would get them in melee range quite safely. And there's really not a whole lot that can stand up to a Chei-follower in Dragon form in melee combat.

I think he could use some tweaks, but I'm not really sure what. Like I said, his abilities are quite potent when you can leverage them, but getting that leverage is difficult.

[whitmo]

I'm a big Chei fan, Chei ain't broke, don't fix Chei!

I play mostly Sprint and Cheibriados actually seems like one of the stronger gods in sprint, due to the fast rate of piety gain. It is no problem to spam slouch and clear out wave after wave of enemy... for example 10-rune challenge has a killer bee room that is instant ***** piety gain for Chei worshippers!

I've always enjoyed Chei-Trolls, but lately my new thing is Lava Orc Transmuters. There are some weird synergies with this combo (i.e. flaming spider w/ temporal distortion), fun to try if you haven't yet!

[duvessa]

Yes chei is one of the best gods in sprint, however sprint is nothing like crawl.

[Klown]

I'm a big Chei fan, Chei ain't broke, don't fix Chei!

Let them fix him. :p He'll only get better.

[Konedar]

My 2 cents:

Chei is weakest early on (at */** and no invocations it's basically only slowing you for nothing in return) and in the late extended.
Regarding the early weakness it's already being discussed, what I'd like to propose is to have it reduce the hell effects, similar to his reduced abyss monster spawn.
Instead of every 20 turns every 40 for example.
I know it's not a major point as it's in the extended but anybody who has done hell with Chei will agree with this probably.

[Sandman25]

I didn't have problems with Chei in hell, Slouch kills Executioners in one turn, Step from Time can save you from sure death, stat boost allows you to have foo storm in heavy armour and/or at great power. Just don't go into extended with melee only character, that's very bad with Chei indeed.

[Konedar]

The point is that as it takes much longer to travel through hell you are suffering from hell effects more than other chars... As something similar is already implemented for abyss and orb run...

[Grimm]

There was a report on a non-contributing post in this thread. Let's close it.