Ice Species Idea: Fjoads


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yig

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Post Saturday, 9th November 2013, 19:57

Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

My Goal: My aim with this species was to design a unique and enjoyable species that fulfilled the lacking ice niche and to avoid making another tough or spirit like race. Admittedly i may not know as much as the bulk of the dcss community and i cannot code so i wanted to gather feedback to help tweak this species into something that could possibly fill the ice void.

Fjoads (based off Fjord and Toads) are a highly intelligent species of humanoid arctic toads. When not moving they quickly decrease their body heat to a near hibernation states which lowers their metabolism and generates a aura of cold around them slowing any incoming threats as well as themselves. As toads they are completely carnivorous and due to their cold manipulation they can keep chunks preserved for much longer. They are naturally agile though they prefer a slow approach to movement and would rather be grounded and mentally focused than use agility and complex weapons.

Innate Abilities and Bonuses:

  Code:
Cold resistant 2
You are very good at protecting your potions
Resistant to freezing clouds
Fire vulnerability  1
Rubbery Skin
Deformed Body: armor fits poorly on your strangely shaped body.
Cannot wear: boots, gloves, or helmets(caps and hats are fine)
Carnivorous 3
Slow metabolism 1

Devour : 3 Range, Success Rate based on XPL/HD. Can be used to instantly devour any tiny, little, or small enemies or pull medium enemy towards you. On success against a tiny, little, or small enemy you instantly devour the target and gain nutrition equal to its max chunks as well as the effects of eating the devoured creatures chunks. If the creature does not produce chunks, no nutrition is gained. On success against a medium enemy they are pulled into melee range.


Stats and Aptitudes:

  Code:
Hybrid Size (same as Naga and Centaurs)
Str 5
Int 7
Dex 6
Every 5 levels they gain a point in int or dex.

HP: 0
MP: -2
Exp: -1

Arm: 1
Ddg: -1
Sth: 2
Shd: 0
Inv: 2
Evo: 0

Fgt: 1
SBL: 1
Lbl: -2
M&F: -1
Axes: 0
Pol: 1
Stv: 2

UC: -1
Thr: 0
Slg: 1
Bws: -1
Crb: 2

Spc: -1
Cnj: -2
Hex: 2
Cha: 2
Sum: 0
Nec: 1
Trl: -1
Trm: 1
Fir: -4
Ice: 3
Air: 0
Ear: 1
Poi: 2


Image found on google images and actually closely matched what i was going for.
Image
Last edited by yig on Monday, 18th November 2013, 16:50, edited 31 times in total.
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Post Saturday, 9th November 2013, 20:06

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Well the image makes them look awesome. :)

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Post Saturday, 9th November 2013, 20:54

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Carnivorous 3 and slow metabolism take away from the chunk preservation aspect.
Immunity to slow, why?
Tongue Pull makes it too easy to take advantage of AoF, should the aura be so easy to obtain during a fight or something to think about?

Have you thought about the new jump ability?
A protect valuables from cold attribute seems appropriate here.
what about a Ozocubu's Armour type AC increase with the AoF increase, limit the slowing effect to a when hit by an enemy?
(it's like I'm trying to make an anti-lava orc)

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Post Saturday, 9th November 2013, 21:14

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

1. Carnivorous 3 was simply due to to the fact that toads are pure carnivorous but now that u mention it i see why lowering it back to 1 or 2 would make the chunk preservation more interesting and certainly would be good.
2. Immune to slow could be bumped back to simply being resistant as well but the main reason behind it was due to the fact that they have a large amount of control over their slowing aspect.
3. Tongue Pull was intended to be used in conjunction with AoF specifically due to them needing to isolate damage due to their lower health as well as to slightly out range reach so i think other things can be tweaked if the species is overall too strong in this department.
4. I purposely avoided jump due to not wanting to take anything from felids and the fact that they are more based on being semi immobile and waiting for their opponents.
5. The protect valuables from cold seems pretty awesome and fitting actually.
6. I did look at the Ozos Armor bonus on hit but it somewhat goes against the idea of species as a whole. Its as toads do in the wilds which is waiting and preparing as their prey approaches them and then they drag them in.

I was actually thinking somewhat along the lines of a anti LO when i made the race in the fact that he gets colder when not moving and warmer to base value when moving. The aura could work differently but id rather see it simply be a little less effective instead and keep the ability to slow peoples advance towards them. I intended the species to be more of a stationary caster or fighter and never want AoF to be used for kiting since it also slows them and shrinks based on movement. It is purely intended for a defensive maneuver.

I really appreciate the feedback.
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Post Saturday, 9th November 2013, 21:35

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Can we please trash lava orcs and replace them with this? Seriously, lava orcs are way too similar to hill orcs and we already have a fire niche.
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Post Saturday, 9th November 2013, 21:39

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

You should reduce their armor aptitudes to 0 and give them the deformed body mutation. Reduce their magic aptitudes a bit, and make mp 0(they already have old spellcasting).
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Post Saturday, 9th November 2013, 22:44

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

yig wrote:My Goal: My aim with this species was to design a unique and enjoyable species
The whole "slow aura while near"/ Tongue Pull thing is one of the better species ideas I've seen, but I don't really think it's enough to carry the species. Chei's Bend Time is similar, slowing down monsters only while they are close to you, increasing the range has even been suggested. The "benefit for standing still" bit is covered by the "unnamed weapon move" idea. (PS is there still a chance that's going to land in Trunk? I want to play it but I haven't heard about it for a while.)
yig wrote:that fulfilled the lacking ice niche
You've set yourself a impossible task here because the "ice niche" is firmly filled by Merfolk. They're even amphibious. I guess they aren't ice species flavorfully, but we don't need perfect symmetry in Crawl mythology. If this was going to get in than I'd keep the tongue and aura but change to apts. to something more unusual.
yig wrote:and to avoid making another tough or spirit like race.
Not entirely sure what you mean here but if you mean a species with middling defenses I guess you succeeded at that.

On chunk mechancis:
More food gimmicks is a bad idea. I have a feeling that there's going to be big food simplification in the next couple versions that makes this obsolete.

Tiktacy wrote:You should reduce their armor aptitudes to 0 and give them the deformed body mutation. Reduce their magic aptitudes a bit, and make mp 0(they already have old spellcasting).
Could you explain why this would help?
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Post Saturday, 9th November 2013, 23:08

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

reaver wrote:
yig wrote:My Goal: My aim with this species was to design a unique and enjoyable species
The whole "slow aura while near"/ Tongue Pull thing is one of the better species ideas I've seen, but I don't really think it's enough to carry the species. Chei's Bend Time is similar, slowing down monsters only while they are close to you, increasing the range has even been suggested. The "benefit for standing still" bit is covered by the "unnamed weapon move" idea. (PS is there still a chance that's going to land in Trunk? I want to play it but I haven't heard about it for a while.)
yig wrote:that fulfilled the lacking ice niche
You've set yourself a impossible task here because the "ice niche" is firmly filled by Merfolk. They're even amphibious. I guess they aren't ice species flavorfully, but we don't need perfect symmetry in Crawl mythology. If this was going to get in than I'd keep the tongue and aura but change to apts. to something more unusual.
yig wrote:and to avoid making another tough or spirit like race.
Not entirely sure what you mean here but if you mean a species with middling defenses I guess you succeeded at that.

On chunk mechancis:
More food gimmicks is a bad idea. I have a feeling that there's going to be big food simplification in the next couple versions that makes this obsolete.

Tiktacy wrote:You should reduce their armor aptitudes to 0 and give them the deformed body mutation. Reduce their magic aptitudes a bit, and make mp 0(they already have old spellcasting).
Could you explain why this would help?


As you said, they are too much like merfolk, so reducing the magic aptitudes a bit and adding deformed body mutation would make them a bit different. In hindsight, leaving the magic aptitudes the same and doing the former would be a better idea, as it would further differentiate the 2 species(while doing the latter would not)

I'm mostly just spit balling, so maybe I should have made it more like a suggestion rather than a demand. :P
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Post Saturday, 9th November 2013, 23:13

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

@ ice niche: He means an actual ice creature similar to lava orc's flames/gargoyle's earthly stone body/etc. (flavor-wise, as you put it)
Merfolk are swimming fish poking you with a trident who happen to have 1 ice magic apt.

Besides, Ice has some of the coolest mythological creatures. (pun intended)

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Post Sunday, 10th November 2013, 00:15

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

I did consider they would be somewhat close to Merfolk when i made them but with their abilities and quite different aptitudes other than them having poison as a sub app i don't see much of a comparison in gameplay other than them both having amphibious. The chunk thing was more of an interesting element that would make them feel a little different overall but if food does change in future patches this could always be tweaked. I certainly hope that food would not become a complete non issue as that would take quite a bit of the feeling of needing to delve deeper for food regardless of the danger.

I could honestly see giving them the deformed body if they had at least some minor way of gaining additional armor. Originally i had though that every turn they stood still they would actually partially freeze over increasing their armor as well. Perhaps giving them no armor and adding +1 armor for every stack would help to separate them a bit more.

I also could mix more elements of the Fjord norse type stuff and retract the polearm similarities to merfolk and give them some varying apps compared to the merfolk.

On the topic of the ice niche i really dont feel that Merfolk capture that image at all. People have already discussed simply adding ice apps to the merfolk and most agreed that a separate species covering them idea would be better.

The true part of this species that i love and think would be fun is the stand firm slow pull mechanics so thats something id certainly want to remain intact.

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Post Sunday, 10th November 2013, 00:28

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Perhaps the pull attack could confuse victim, it would be a nice differentiation from conventional En.
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Post Sunday, 10th November 2013, 02:33

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Sandman25 wrote:Perhaps the pull attack could confuse victim, it would be a nice differentiation from conventional En.


Instead of all this silly stuff, how about we make it so using this ability has an HD/level based chance to auto-kill(consume) the creature? So if you are lets say, a level 10, you can use it to simply eat a goblin and gain nutrition(or mutations/rotting/poison depending on the creature). Then, after this, we make it so they are not allowed to use the ability is they are full or greater? This would of course be impossible for undead, ghostly(and creatures without a physical body), and giant creatures. You can still eat demons, but expect to be having some serious pains(torment). :)
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Post Sunday, 10th November 2013, 02:52

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Not going to lie, that kinda sounds awesome and very fitting to a toad/frog. Would it be preferable for me to actually modify their apps to pull them further away from merfolk similarity? To me, the bows and spears seemed to fit thematically with the species due to them being able to attack them as they move through the slow aura without being in direct melee range as well the idea of using more simple tribal weapons. Considering they only have 1 in bow and polearm its not like they take anything away from the merfolks insain polearm skill.
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Post Sunday, 10th November 2013, 03:42

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Is Jump applicable?
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Post Sunday, 10th November 2013, 03:49

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

XuaXua wrote:Is Jump applicable?

It certainly could be, I just didn't want them to take anything away from felids especially if i change them to not being able to wear pretty much any armor except hats and gloves. The idea behind them being that they strayed away from agile combat despite being toads and preferred to maintain mental focus and hold their ground. Their style would probably align closely to Cheibriados.
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Post Sunday, 10th November 2013, 04:12

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

There are 27 races; I don't think having TWO of them start with the same mutation that any of the others can acquire is going to dilute the pool, considering the other differences.
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Post Sunday, 10th November 2013, 04:40

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

XuaXua wrote:Is Jump applicable?


I think we already discussed this and we concluded that jump was a felid thing.

As for making them different from merfolks, make them more tanky and less dodgy. Here is a bit of a rework of the aptitudes that will make them a bit more unique, use it if you wish, this is just my take on it:

Spoiler: show
Arm: 2
Ddg: 0
Sth: 0
Shd: 2

Inv: 1
Evo: 0


HP: 0
MP: -3
Exp: -1


Fgt: 2
SBl: 1
LBl: -2
M&F: -2
Axs: -1
Pla: 1
Stv: 2
UC: -3

Thr: 0
Slg: 0
Crb: 1



Spc: -2
Coj: -2
Hex: 2
Cha: 2
Sum: -2
Nec: 1
Trl: 0
Trm: 1

Fire: -3
Ice: 4
Air: 0
Earth: 1
Poison: 2

Reasonings:

-Arm: They have a very strangely shaped body but it is also slippery and squishy, so it can overcome its disadvantage by getting used to wearing armor.
-Shd: They may have trouble with most one handed weapons, but shields are much easier to use for them because of their large size and ability to absorb impact(also, shields are mounted by the arms, not the hands!).
-HP: It is kind of squishy, but its the branch that bends that doesn't break!
-MP: It is very good at support magic, but its powers are not strong enough to be used constantly during battle(conjurations).
-Exp: They are a very complex species, growth is more difficult for them, especially with the thin air of the dungeon.
-Weapons aptitudes: Their hands are strangely shaped, so they have difficulty with mainly one handed weapons, but excel and using both hands. However, daggers are light enough to keep a strong grip even WITH their strange fingers.
-Ranged aptitudes: They can grow and use slings, and their strength makes crossbows easy to use, but bows are very tricky to handle for them.
-Casting Aptitudes: They are very good at using hexes, charms, necromancy, and transmutations because of their froggy heritage(witches often use their body parts because of their innate magical properties). They are also quite good at ice magic and poison, but they lack the ability to use fire as it upsets their natural balance of homeostasis.
-Overall aptitudes: I looked through and made sure that these aptitudes are completely unique to the species and present a unique challenge. They have the lowest MP(even lower than trolls!) and only average HP, but makeup for it with their excellent fighting and good support magic aptitudes.


Here is also some suggestions for added mutations:

-Rubbery skin: This one isn't hard to understand.

-Deformed body: They are toad people, they aren't going to fit into most kinds of armor very well. :roll:

-Devour: Shoots out its tongue and laches onto enemies, if they are too powerful, it will fizzle and do nothing(which is often the case). But if they are weak, they will find themselves being eaten alive in an instant. This does not work on undead, insubstantial, or giants(anything ogre sized or bigger, so centaurs and nagas are effected). It does work on demons, but will inflict torment upon successful consumption. Eating a creature with poisoned meat will cause poison(unless you are resistant), eating creatures with rot will induce rot(only death drakes are applicable to this I think), and eating creatures with mutation meat will cause mutation. You must be lower than full satiation for this to be usable, and gives a large amount of nutrition for using it. This should probably be given at around level 10.


Thoughts on my improvements? :D
Last edited by Tiktacy on Sunday, 10th November 2013, 04:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Sunday, 10th November 2013, 04:43

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

The real question is how good they'll be at patching DOTA.

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Post Sunday, 10th November 2013, 05:03

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

ontoclasm wrote:The real question is how good they'll be at patching DOTA.

Funny thing is, i actually did end up getting alot of related pictures to icefrog trying to find a picture.

@Tiktacy

I do like your ideas for the mutations and devouring tongue attack however il need to take time tomorrow looking over the apps because they do seem to take a sharp turn away from my original idea of the species.

Any feedback regarding the original apps to Tiktacys would be appreciated to help me decide. Ultimately i want a ice-centric species that will stand on its own and add to what makes crawl awesome. I will bend from my original idea some if we can certainly make it work and find a home in crawl for it.
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Post Sunday, 10th November 2013, 05:13

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

yig wrote:
ontoclasm wrote:The real question is how good they'll be at patching DOTA.

Funny thing is, i actually did end up getting alot of related pictures to icefrog trying to find a picture.

@Tiktacy

I do like your ideas for the mutations and devouring tongue attack however il need to take time tomorrow looking over the apps because they do seem to take a sharp turn away from my original idea of the species.

Any feedback regarding the original apps to Tiktacys would be appreciated to help me decide. Ultimately i want a ice-centric species that will stand on its own and add to what makes crawl awesome. I will bend from my original idea some if we can certainly make it work and find a home in crawl for it.


I looked through all the aptitudes of all the species and did my best to make them different than all the other species. Feel free to change it however you'd like though. :)
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 09:04

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Finally, an ice-based species! (To all of you who say Merfolk are the ice-based species: they're really not. They're more Tmut-based with a decent apt for ice. Deep elves have just as much ice magic as merfolk, and nobody says they're the ice species.)

I like the idea of just up and eating your foes. It'd be fun to use on like bugs and spiders and bats and stuff. What size are you thinking of making the Fjoads? My mental image was average size, but if you want them to be eating centaurs/nagas, then they'd probably have to be ogre-sized.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 10:31

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

About the Ica-aura, when you say "Every turn they do not move", do you mean "every turn they wait", or "every turn they stay on the same square" ?
Because I can hardly see some-one (even being a frog), not getting warmed-up by moving an Halberd in such a way it can decapitate his enemies, even when not moving his feet that much ... :/

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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 13:28

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

tompliss wrote:About the Ica-aura, when you say "Every turn they do not move", do you mean "every turn they wait", or "every turn they stay on the same square" ?
Because I can hardly see some-one (even being a frog), not getting warmed-up by moving an Halberd in such a way it can decapitate his enemies, even when not moving his feet that much ... :/

Its not so much of them warming or cooling based on moving as much as its a instinctual defense mechanism in their species that as they wait and brace for combat (as a toad waits and braces for something to fly past them) their body reacts and protects them. Its sort of like when u hyper focus in on things sometimes it almost appears they are moving slower, for the Fjoad they are.

@spudwalt

I pictured them being medium but they could be large if their apps end up moving in a way that it would make sense. I see this as more of a slow developing process in which many things can change about them before I (with the help of everyone here) feel they are perfect and unique. Gotta keep the ice toad theme though because its awesome. The idea actually came to me while researching how wood frogs actually allow their body to be frozen during the winter and then will unthaw during the summer to survive.

Im currently working on consolidating mine and Tik's apps to see if i can find a good balance. Il post any updates i do.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 14:48

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

yig wrote:
tompliss wrote:About the Ica-aura, when you say "Every turn they do not move", do you mean "every turn they wait", or "every turn they stay on the same square" ?
Because I can hardly see some-one (even being a frog), not getting warmed-up by moving an Halberd in such a way it can decapitate his enemies, even when not moving his feet that much ... :/

Its not so much of them warming or cooling based on moving as much as its a instinctual defense mechanism in their species that as they wait and brace for combat (as a toad waits and braces for something to fly past them) their body reacts and protects them. Its sort of like when u hyper focus in on things sometimes it almost appears they are moving slower, for the Fjoad they are.

@spudwalt

I pictured them being medium but they could be large if their apps end up moving in a way that it would make sense. I see this as more of a slow developing process in which many things can change about them before I (with the help of everyone here) feel they are perfect and unique. Gotta keep the ice toad theme though because its awesome. The idea actually came to me while researching how wood frogs actually allow their body to be frozen during the winter and then will unthaw during the summer to survive.

Im currently working on consolidating mine and Tik's apps to see if i can find a good balance. Il post any updates i do.



What are your thoughts on them? I think the idea of a powerful support caster but a weak blaster would make for a really interesting challenge. Also, they should be naga sized, since we only have 4 species like that from what I'm aware of.

Also, lets work on getting a monster in the game, maybe add fjords as a humanoid that spawns in frog vaults at the end of lair? It old help make more of a place for them in crawl and consolidate its position.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 15:03

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

So far looking over the i do like your views on the weapon proficiency (due to hand shapes) for some of them and have modified accordingly and i could certainly see them become a little tougher so im taking that into consideration. The main thing im having a hard time changing is making them so horrible with mana (thought i do like the idea of making them a semi challenge species) and blasting. I could see making them less blasty since we gave them more ranged proficiency (which would also make them different from merfolk) to give them options with how they use their aura (melee slowing fighter or stationary frosty turret) since i did change the tongue pull to devour. For military skills i came to this so far.

Fgt: 1 (Due to their defensive minded fighting, perhaps +2 but it would seem very odd putting them on the same level as minotaurs and orcs.)
SBL: 0 (Or possibly even -1. I dont really see them using blades at all)
Lbl: -2 (Too much finesse required)
M&F: -1 (Flails are odd)
Axes: 0 (Simple and Nordic. It is a nice nod to the race name since maces are grouped with flails.)
Pla: 1 (Stv but more complex)
Stv: 2 (Simple staple weapon in my mind when i think of the Fjoads)
UC: -1 (Body structure would limit agile UC combat, perhaps -2.)
Thr: 0 (Slower movement affects throwing)
Slg: 1 (Momentum assists the throw. Would be preferred)
Bws: -1 (I see them somewhat tribal and proficient with ranged weapons in general so they need some bow skill. -1 reflects less proficiency than a human due to their odd hands but the patient hunter element of the bow fits pretty good with semi tribal intelligent toads so -2 seems too harsh.)
Crb: 1 (Simpler ranged wep for their hands to use)

EDIT: Clarified a few things in my post.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 15:31

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

yig wrote:So far looking over the i do like your views on the weapon proficiency (due to hand shapes) for some of them and have modified accordingly and i could certainly see them become a little tougher so im taking that into consideration. The main thing im having a hard time changing is making them so horrible with mana (thought i do like the idea of making them a semi challenge species) and blasting. I could see making them less blasty since we gave them more ranged proficiency (which would also make them different from merfolk) to give them options with how they use their aura (melee slowing fighter or stationary frosty turret) since i did change the tongue pull to devour. For military skills i came to this so far.

Fgt: 1 (Due to their defensive minded fighting, perhaps +2 but it would seem very odd putting them on the same level as minotaurs and orcs.)
SBL: 0 (Or possibly even -1. I dont really see them using blades at all)
Lbl: -2 (Too much finesse required)
M&F: -1 (Flails are odd)
Axes: 0 (Simple and Nordic. It is a nice nod to the race name since maces are grouped with flails.)
Pla: 1 (Stv but more complex)
Stv: 2 (Simple staple weapon in my mind when i think of the Fjoads)
UC: -1 (Body structure would limit agile UC combat, perhaps -2.)
Thr: 0 (Slower movement affects throwing)
Slg: 1 (Momentum assists the throw. Would be preferred)
Bws: -1 (I see them somewhat tribal and proficient with ranged weapons in general so they need some bow skill. -1 reflects less proficiency than a human due to their odd hands but the patient hunter element of the bow fits pretty good with semi tribal intelligent toads so -2 seems too harsh.)
Crb: 1 (Simpler ranged wep for their hands to use)

EDIT: Clarified a few things in my post.


Being tribal means they are more likely to be good with support magic and hexes rather than blasting, and it goes well with the idea of an "arcane marksmen" type play style. The mana was mostly just to make the species stand out more as support magic casters; using ozo's refrigeration to thin everything out and go in for the kill with bolts of penetration; using condensation shield in conjunction with a two handed melee weapon; summoning ice beasts as support and fighting behind them with polarms; using ensorcelled hibernation and devouring the stunned enemy(yes, we will make this work).

Also, another cool thing about this race is that rings of hunger are actually a good thing. :)

Edit: on top of all that only 3 worth while ice magic spells are conjurations, the rest are hexes, charms, transmutations, and necromancy.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 15:38

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Very good points and i actually agree a bit more now. Only question i have regarding mana is with -3 is there simply going to be some spells they wont be able to cast? Also, how do u like my weapon apps i came up with based off yours? And finally, i added armor per stack of AoC (symbolic of them partially freezing themselves like my original design but scraped due to them wearing armor) since we have pretty much stripped them of most armor types they could possibly wear except some robes, animal skins, and hats. With AoC i could certainly see going with the -3 mana to offset the fact that AoC is starting to look very strong (but species defining) by itself.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 15:44

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

yig wrote:Very good points and i actually agree a bit more now. Only question i have regarding mana is with -3 is there simply going to be some spells they wont be able to cast? Also, how do u like my weapon apps i came up with based off yours? And finally, i added armor per stack of AoC (symbolic of them partially freezing themselves like my original design but scraped due to them wearing armor) since we have pretty much stripped them of most armor types they could possibly wear except some robes, animal skins, and hats. With AoC i could certainly see going with the -3 mana to offset the fact that AoC is starting to look very strong (but species defining) by itself.


Wait what? I meant large like nagas and centaurs, not large like ogres and trolls! XD

Edit: I like the weapon aptitudes, but we should give them 1 to short blades so they make better enchanters(which makes sense flavor wise).
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 15:46

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Tiktacy wrote:
yig wrote:Very good points and i actually agree a bit more now. Only question i have regarding mana is with -3 is there simply going to be some spells they wont be able to cast? Also, how do u like my weapon apps i came up with based off yours? And finally, i added armor per stack of AoC (symbolic of them partially freezing themselves like my original design but scraped due to them wearing armor) since we have pretty much stripped them of most armor types they could possibly wear except some robes, animal skins, and hats. With AoC i could certainly see going with the -3 mana to offset the fact that AoC is starting to look very strong (but species defining) by itself.


Wait what? I meant large like nagas and centaurs, not large like ogres and trolls! XD

Ah ok, so they would actually be able to wear armor but be slightly crappy at it. Hybrid size does sound about right actually so il go ahead and change that. Sbl 1 would be fine then and would reflect a tribal proficiency with skinning knives used during hunts. That actually works out well.

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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 15:52

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Do you mean assassin-type enchanters ?
Wouldn't the devour ability best suited for threat-disposing when playing a fjoad enchanter ?

I mean, it would be logical if a paralized enemy could be eaten easily, etc ... using the stabing tiers, maybe (excepting the "petrified = easy" one ? :D ) ?

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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 15:56

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

I actually really do like the idea of being able to more easily devour paralyzed enemies. This species is really starting to come together and I love it.

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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 16:15

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Can the species poison enemy by pulling it with tongue?
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 16:20

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Sandman25 wrote:Can the species poison enemy by pulling it with tongue?


Maybe they could burn them if they have acidic saliva?

Poisoning would make sense if they have spit poison as well.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 16:25

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

I don't think we need to add any more buffs to the devour ability. I could see possibly making it a weaker unarmed attack only if it fails to devour them though (due to creature power or size) so it atleast has its uses if the player did not go enchanting for the paralyzed meals and has not been back-tracking at all for easy devour prey.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 16:41

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Ok, I edited everything and added some missing things:

Innate Abilities and Bonuses:

  Code:
Amphibious
Cold resistant 2
You are very good at protecting your potions
Resistant to freezing clouds
Fire vulnerability  1
Rubbery Skin
Deformed Body: armor fits poorly on your strangely shaped body.
Cannot wear: boots, gloves, or helmets(caps and hats are fine)
Carnivorous 1
Slow metabolism 1
Chunks do not decay as long as they are in your inventory(they are frozen)

Aura of frost: For every 3 turns you remain in your positions, an aura of frost will grow 1 space with a maximum radius of 3. This will cause creatures around you to slow(and take ice damage if they are vulnerable). If you remain stationary for too long however, you will be given slowness as well, but it will ware off after AoF dissipates. Moving will reduce the size of your AoF by 1 each time you move. Taking fire damage will get rid of it completely.

Devour: Shoots out its tongue and laches onto an enemy then proceeds to devour them whole. Gives nutrition, as well as any effects of the meat from said creature. Does not work on undead, insubstantial, or giant(ogre sized or bigger) enemies' devouring a demons causes torment. Has a much lower chance of working on enemies with HD that is close to or higher than your level, but has a 100% chance to work on sleeping or paralyzed enemies, being confused gives a bonus as well(but not as much). You must be less then full for this to work. Gains this mutation at level 10.

Costs: using devour gives you "digesting" status, which disallows you from using it again for a long period of time based on size of the creature. When it disappears, you are given the experience for killing the creatures. Being stationary slows this time down significantly.


Stats and Aptitudes:

  Code:
Str 5
Int 7
Dex 6
Every 5 levels they gain a point in int or dex.

Arm: 2
Ddg: -1
Sth: 2
Shd: 0
Inv: 2
Evo: 0

HP: -1
MP: -2
Exp: -1

Fgt: 1
SBL: 1
Lbl: -2
M&F: -1
Axes: 0
Pol: 1
Stv: 2

UC: 0
Thr: 0
Slg: 1
Bws: -2
Crb: 2

Spc: -1
Cnj: -2
Hex: 2
Cha: 2
Sum: 0
Nec: 1
Trl: 0
Trm: 1
Fir: -4
Ice: 3
Air: 0
Ear: 1
Poi: 2



For aptitudes, I changed the mana cost and reduced conjurations. I also gave them standard spellcasting aptitudes and better hexes, charms, necromancy, and translocations.

As for mutations, I added some new stuff and rewrote devour(as well as added a better cost for balancing purposes). I suggest that we simply get rid of AoF and simply make it so being stationary for too long "freezes" you in place and gives an effect similar to webs(you just struggle a bit to get out). Thoughts?
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 16:52

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

I actually just got making some changes to the spellcasting apps myself. This is what i came up with.

HP: 0
MP: -2
XP: -1

Spc: -2
Cnj: -2
Hex: 2
Cha: 2
Sum: -1
Nec: 1
Trl: -2
Trm: 1
Fir: -4
Ice: 3
Air: 0
Ear: 1
Poi: 2

What about AoF warrants just outright removing it? I could see it still being a fun species without it but i would be a bit bummed to see it gone completely. Also, i appreciate the rewriting up of things. Il update the main post.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 17:05

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

It's a bit too complicated, just coming up with what I did was stressful and felt weird. Also, crawl players have a phobia of being slowed.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 17:34

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

I honestly think the changes u did to it make it less confusing overall and better. If people know waiting still for more than 6 turns or something will slow them then all they need to do is move once every few turns decreasing the aura from 3 to 2 to keep themselves from being slowed. We could turn it into a activateable ability and take away the worry of slowing yourself when you're resting back your hp or digesting a devoured enemy that way they could use it when needed rather than all the time. We could even make it slow automatically after so many turns of activating it similar to a trog beserker rage but defensive. There are many things we can do to it to make it work better with simply removing it.

Edit: Or we can simply make it last 8 turns and cost hunger and cooldown there for incentivising people using devour. Perhaps each turn it grows then shrinks during the duration. We wouldn't even need the self slowing property if we did it this way. Giving it 1 turn of startup before it forms so it atleast has to be planned a bit prior. A fire spell would still cancel it and moving would still remove a stack therefore preventing it from being used to kite enemies and shortening the duration.

Stacks over the 8 turns.
0-1-2-3-3-2-1-0

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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 19:34

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

I'm okay with hybrid-sized Fjoads, but I'm still not sure they should be able to eat things as big as themselves; sure, you're hybrid-sized, but so are nagas/centaurs.

We're doing the devour ability as a ranged tongue-snatch, right? What sort of range are we talking about? Also, should there be factors working against the ability similar to Force Lance (i.e. works worse on stuff that's big and/or wearing armor)? If you don't manage to eat something, do you still drag it closer to yourself? Also, does eating something take multiple turns to pull off?

Also, regarding maluses from eating unhealthy stuff: yes to poison from poisonous things, yes to not working on stuff that's too big or insubstantial. Would eating things with contaminated meat give you less nutrition or take longer to digest or something? Regarding undead: would it make sense to be able to eat undead at the cost of rot or something? Yeah, it'll suck having the rot, but if you've got a ghoul pounding your face in, you might just want to bite the bullet and get rid of him for good. For demons, torment works as an incentive to only eat them as a last resort, but would other effects work? Would having mini-hell effects be another possibility?

I really like the idea of Ensorcelling/Paralyzing something then just eating it, by the way.
Last edited by spudwalt on Monday, 11th November 2013, 19:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 19:41

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

I was actually just going to type this up but did not want to double post. I certainly don't think they should be able to eat Naga/Centaurs. Im perfectly fine with medium and smaller creatures but it would not make sense for a toad to eat something the same size as itself. The range on devour was originally designed to be a 3 range and i assume that will still stand. I figured it would simply would be based purely off the level and size differences but not really factoring weight. However, if that is a easy system to implement i wouldn't mind making it part of the ability for realism sake which may also include a varying pull if it fails. Currently it will do minor damage if it fails so it can atleast be used as a sort of ranged poke for characters not focused on hexes or for larger enemies.

Im also actually considering the removal of AoF, Tik. My main concern is if the Fjoad has enough to make it last the long haul when ultimately it would only have unique apps and a eating mechanic.

EDIT: Id also be fine with it taking a different number of turns based on the size not counting digesting. Perhaps 2 for medium and 1 for anything smaller. This would mean devouring a medium creature would leave u open for 1 turn.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 20:53

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

it would not make sense for a toad to eat something the same size as itself


Certain species of toads are known for devouring things as big as themselves, though it certainly isn't always the safest dietary option

But to be fair, those species of toad aren't known for their dungeoneering skills
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 21:08

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

yig wrote:apps

What a strange abbreviation. The word is aptitude, there's only one p. It's usually abbreviated apt.
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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 22:37

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

U know what... you are right. I honestly have no idea why i have been abbreviating it as such. Considering how much im annoyed by the fact that everything in the world now has an app you would think i would have caught myself doing this. In regards to the size thing though, even if it was possible to eat something as large as yourself it would certainly impose a ton of penalties as you attempt to swallow and digest it mid fight. Id say its better left medium and smaller despite how awesome it would be to see a big human frog eat a centaur.

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Post Monday, 11th November 2013, 23:59

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Are we getting closer to yoshi the species?

How about size of prey being dependant on level.

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Post Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 00:17

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

Well when you put it like that it sounds ridiculous but when i put it as a semi large toad eating smaller things it kinda makes sense again. Level is going to determine the success rate and size is going to determine digestion time. Size also may determine how many turns it actually takes on success such as before me saying Medium is 2 turns and small is 1. The fact were basing it on level will lessen the strength unless u get the occasional small guy on a dungeon floor or perhaps u back track to a stash you made and find some lower levels on the way. Of course using hexes and other paralyzing abilities would also bring it into play more.

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Post Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 01:16

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

What happens to equipment when you eat stuff? Do you hork it back up as part of the process?
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Post Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 01:20

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

spudwalt wrote:What happens to equipment when you eat stuff? Do you hork it back up as part of the process?

Probably after its digested the gear gets dropped based on them throwing it back up. I assume their body cant break down metal anyway.

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Post Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 02:24

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

I like a lot of the ideas here, but I'll just warn that flavor should be fitted to game play. Some aspects of the abilities as currently depicted would be very annoying, but (fortunately) they are unnecessarily so.

A different way to balance devour would be to have the eating take multiple turns (as with eating food) based on HD of creature. That introduces a lot more risk to using it. Devour can have a cool down timer as well, but length shouldn't be that long, we don't want to encourage people to move around in circles for 5 minutes to finish up their digestion so they can use it again. If it is to be balanced by a long timer, just make it work like the elemental evokables—after you get a certain amount of experience, you can use it again. There is no reason to stop player from getting experience until after digestion has finished. Also, definitely do not make it unusable unless you are at low satiation. This, again, is just asking players to tediously wait / grind until a certain ability becomes usable again.

Lose the chunk preservation thing, they already have carnivorous mutation, you can either bump that up (making them kobold-like) or you can replace with saprovore. And with devour giving nutrition as well it is a bit silly to try to pretend that chunk preservation matters. It wouldn't for a species that didn't already have favorable chunk-eating mutations, and on such a species it is like putting a tiny birthday candle on top of a high-powered search light.

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Post Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 03:36

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

You make a good point about the chunk preservation. That was part of the original idea when Devour was still a pull in ability and they had carnivorous 3. I put them back to the carnivorous 3 and removed the chuck preservation. Id rather have an active fun ability for their food buffs than a passive one.

Could u possibly clarify your first idea for devour though? Do you mean that devour is a auto success on a proper sized creature it just takes a certain number of turns based on the HD/size difference or do u first have to succeed based on their size/hd and then it takes several turns of eating while it leaves u open based again on hd/size? Seems like it would work to simplify it and add risk reward elements to it. I think the digestion timer was only there to serve as a variable cooldown based on how big of a creature you ate previously. The xp gain he was talking about was the xp for the creature being devoured not all xp u would gain from fighting while digesting.

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Post Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 05:07

Re: Ice Species Idea: Fjoads

yig wrote:You make a good point about the chunk preservation. That was part of the original idea when Devour was still a pull in ability and they had carnivorous 3. I put them back to the carnivorous 3 and removed the chuck preservation. Id rather have an active fun ability for their food buffs than a passive one.

Could u possibly clarify your first idea for devour though? Do you mean that devour is a auto success on a proper sized creature it just takes a certain number of turns based on the HD/size difference or do u first have to succeed based on their size/hd and then it takes several turns of eating while it leaves u open based again on hd/size? Seems like it would work to simplify it and add risk reward elements to it. I think the digestion timer was only there to serve as a variable cooldown based on how big of a creature you ate previously. The xp gain he was talking about was the xp for the creature being devoured not all xp u would gain from fighting while digesting.


Yes, sorry, my paragraph on devour was not all clear, I was throwing a few ideas out there at once.

I think we agree that an ability that can potentially insta-kill enemies needs to be balanced pretty majorly with certain limitations and drawbacks, the only question is how. I'm saying, if there is a long cool-down timer (a long time in between being able to use devour again) then the way that should work is, you need X amount of experience—proportional to your character level—in order for the ability to recharge. That would be one way to balance it.

In any case, I definitely think there should be a roll for success—it shouldn't be guaranteed (that would be too strong). I like that it checks HD rather than MR, as this makes it potentially useful throughout game. Being able to devour demons at cost of torment is a nice touch—the ability retains usefulness in extended, but at a much higher price (and risk). I'll also say that some enemies should be immune, beyond what you already pointed out. Stuff like Orbs of Fire should not be devour-able—not only because it is a very silly mental image and does not fit established flavor / themes, but also because those guys are supposed to be one of the enemies in Zot that makes you worry and play carefully, no matter what character you are playing and how powerful it is. (Well, I guess that's no longer completely true with Djinn, but still.)

The other thing I suggested is that devouring something shouldn't affect experience. The thing is dead when you eat it. You get experience when things die. It would be weird for experience (even just from thing devoured) to be delayed until it was digested. That would be like things you killed with your pointy stick not giving experience until they finish rotting, or something.

Finally, using the ability should not be dependent upon your satiation level. However, I think it is fine to have it give large amount of satiation after you've devoured something. In effect, that is just flavor, but it is a nice touch and doesn't mess with game play. So if you devour at "engorged" or even just "very full" you lose out on some satiation, sure that's "non-optimal" in the strictest sense, I guess, but that won't really matter. What makes the ability strong is that it has a chance to insta-gib an enemy. (Using devour for nutritional benefit would be like, I dunno, worshiping Ash so you don't get unwanted items in inventory cursed by vanilla mummies upon death.)

So, altogether: You use devour on something. If it is not devour-able, you get a message saying, "You can't eat that," and nothing happens. (Doesn't even take up a turn, or anything.) If it is devour-able, you roll for success based on [some formula involving your character level] vs. [target's HD]. — Disclaimer: I'm not good with numbers, so no recommendations as to the exact math. — If enemy is devourable, but the success check fails, it is like failing to use an evoked ability—there is no bad effect and you can retry, but you *do* lose a turn. If it succeeds, then you eat up the enemy. This takes a few turns though—exact duration can tend to increase with HD of monster devoured, but it should be slightly variable I think, and should not take much longer than eating a couple of rations. After successful use of ability, you get a lot of satiation added to your hunger level, and then there is a cool-down timer based on experience. (A relatively short cool-down timer—again, the elemental evocables would be a good base line here, I think.)

I think that, if you go with something like what is described above, the cool-down timer could be pretty short, because there are already a lot of other things balancing the ability. That is better, IMO, than having the ability be guaranteed and/or instant—because if that were the case, then the cool-down timer would have to be *very* long in order to keep the ability from being completely broken. But then that would just lead to people hoarding their precious use of devour, rather than actually using it. Which is no fun.
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