Heaven Idea

[MDvedh]

It's OK when you are a good guy who is beating bad demon guys.

But if you are worshiping Makhleb or Yred or Kiku or whatever, you are a bad guy who is beating bad guys and that feels not-that-OK.

So we totally need Heavens. Coming instead of or along with Hell, Heaven gives you a different challenge.

First of all, in Heaven you are going upstairs, not downstairs.

Second, have you ever dreamed about being a real Godslayer? The Heaven presents 4 branches of 4 different gods (not Lugonu, not Jiyva), chosen randomly and biased towards good ones like TSO and Zin.
Just think about a sweet revenge for that _j - a pair of boots {god gift}. In Valhalla, you can fight your way through Giant Giants and Legendary Warriors to face Okawaru himself and loot all the shinies he could gift you, but didn't. Okawaru should be high-armoured powerful God, who is capable of using all armour slots.
Or maybe you hate Sif Muna for books of Cantrips and Party Tricks? Then welcome to the Samsara, where casters of all sorts and flavours are ready to pin you with their crystal spears. The final boss is Sif Muna, the only unique capable of casting ANY spell at very high power. Can you defeat her and learn all of her knowledge?
Also there could be dead wastelands of Yredelemnul, smiting and purging everything with holy flames angels of The Shining one, all-knowing and all-seeing creatures in bound land of Ashenzary, slow-but-deadly priests of Cheibriados, raging berserkers of Trog, and much more.

Every branch contains a distinct rune, say steel rune of Okawaru and bloody rune of Makhleb.
Slaying a god could be very fun, you can destroy Jiyva, but you cant destroy anyone else.

As a bonus, Lugonu can be found in the infinite vast land of Abyss, if you slay him, the Abyss is destroyed but corrupt the main dungeon somewhat.

[nordetsa]

The idea seems interesting, but I find it strange to kill actual Crawl gods. Is the player powerful enough to do that? In Hell you don't fight evil gods; you just fight Hell lords and their minions.

The god-themed branches would be really cool. I think adding them to Pan makes much more sense, since Crawl already have holy-themed pan there. Add specific monsters for each god branch and make the extended game less filled with demons and undeads.

[MDvedh]

Yes, maybe God is too strong to be slain, but maybe some Very-High-Priest?

Crawl already have holy-themed pan there.

Never encountered one.

make the extended game less filled with demons and undeads

I really like the challenge the extended game provides, but all i see is "lets kill some slimes, maybe some undead, then some demons, then some demons, then some demons, demons again, fiery demons, icy demons, whatever demons, have some more demons please." That's really annoying.

[varsovie]

Yes, maybe God is too strong to be slain, but maybe some Very-High-Priest?

Jiyva...

As for holy, right now we have some very small vaults and the pan levels. You can also encounter some holy creatures in the abyss.

Instead of a branch, maybe start with a portal and some mega "holy invasion" vaults for hell.

The problem with a branch, is that it will be an instant "fuck you" to the undead/demon races.

[MDvedh]

The problem with a branch, is that it will be an instant "fuck you" to the undead/demon races.

Extended says "fuck you" to much more builds than just undead/demon races.

Please note, I'm not saying "Holy Heavens with Holy Angels and Holy Flames and Holy Weapons", I'm saying God-themed Heavens. Which aren't always Holy.

[and into]

Yes, and the "holy Pan" level exists, and is very rough on undead/demonspawn, so it wouldn't be unprecedented. It is fine for some things to be harder for some species. By contrast, undead have it easy when you are facing down a bunch of stuff that can cast torment.

[Klown]

I like the idea of a Heaven branch. Killing the Gods is too crazy, though. <3

[Tiktacy]

While we are at it, I might as well throw this on the table:


Hellish gods(hell): Makhleb(Gehenna?), Kiku(Tartarus?), yreld(dis?), vehumet(cocytus?)

Heavenly gods(heaven?): TSO(crusades), Ely(peace), zin(law)

Gods of the natural world(the void?): chei(time), ashenzari(knowledge), fedhas(life), Sid muna(magic)

Gods of chaos(the deep abyss?): Xom, Lucy, Nemelex

Gods of War(Valhalla?): beogh, trog, oku.

If we were to make inter changeable branches based on gods, we should at least consider all of our options. I personally think the void gods sounds way cooler than heaven and hell.

[MoogleDan]

I'd love to see these have a 10% chance of replacing any of the standard Hells. Having it be an uncommon event would leave the undead with only one or two (4% chance per game) brutal challenge stage as opposed to multiple guaranteed.

[Tiktacy]

I'd love to see these have a 10% chance of replacing any of the standard Hells. Having it be an uncommon event would leave the undead with only one or two (4% chance per game) brutal challenge stage as opposed to multiple guaranteed.

The problem is that it takes too much time to develop entire branches like this too just make them a rare occurrence. Also, mid-game is currently top-priority(extended is already fun 'enough' IMO) so I wouldn't expect these until 0.15 or more likely 0.16. Probably never, tbh.

But, if one of the devs really like the idea, one of them might pick it up.

[MoogleDan]

I'd love to see these have a 10% chance of replacing any of the standard Hells. Having it be an uncommon event would leave the undead with only one or two (4% chance per game) brutal challenge stage as opposed to multiple guaranteed.

The problem is that it takes too much time to develop entire branches like this too just make them a rare occurrence. Also, mid-game is currently top-priority(extended is already fun 'enough' IMO) so I wouldn't expect these until 0.15 or more likely 0.16. Probably never, tbh.

But, if one of the devs really like the idea, one of them might pick it up.

True, wizlabs being a really pronounced example of that, and this thread calls for unique branches for each god. Considering how long it's taking for a Quality Approved Enchanted Forest to happen...

[nicolae]

It's OK when you are a good guy who is beating bad demon guys.

But if you are worshiping Makhleb or Yred or Kiku or whatever, you are a bad guy who is beating bad guys and that feels not-that-OK.

feels great, actually!

Second, have you ever dreamed about being a real Godslayer? The Heaven presents 4 branches of 4 different gods (not Lugonu, not Jiyva), chosen randomly and biased towards good ones like TSO and Zin.

a few months ago in ##crawl-dev I learned that the lords of Pandemonium used to actually be gods, IIRC they were Sif Muna, Okawaru, Kikubaqudghaa, and Nemelex Xobeh

[reaver]

It's OK when you are a good guy who is beating bad demon guys.

But if you are worshiping Makhleb or Yred or Kiku or whatever, you are a bad guy who is beating bad guys and that feels not-that-OK.

feels great, actually!

Yeah I don't see anything wrong with in-fighting among the evil gods. Evil isn't one big happy family. The only minor flavor issue I see is Makhleb worshipers assaulting Hell.

a few months ago in ##crawl-dev I learned that the lords of Pandemonium used to actually be gods, IIRC they were Sif Muna, Okawaru, Kikubaqudghaa, and Nemelex Xobeh

I'm pretty sure Vehement was on that list. The old tile is my avatar.

Anyway branches/portal vaults based on the gods have been suggested before, here for example.

[indspenceable]

[quote="reaver"]The only minor flavor issue I see is Makhleb worshipers assaulting Hell.[\quote]

Makhleb loves destruction, though - that's kind of his deal. He'd of course be totally down for infighting.

[Siegurt]

Yeah, if the lords of hell aren't up to the task of fending off an interloper, clearly Makhleb would decide they aren't up to the task and need to be replaced.

[and into]

Crawl intentionally leaves a lot of the flavor up to the player's imagination. For this kind of game, I think that is good, for a number of reasons, one of them being that, this way, you don't tie down design development. Makhleb is demonic in flavor, but it says nowhere in game that he is in any way aligned with the Hells or Pan, nor does it say that all of the Hells and different Pan lords are in any sort of alliance—they just prioritize killing *you* when you are around, which makes sense. For all you know, the moment your character splats or moves on, they all cheerfully get back to plotting how to kill and usurp each other. Maybe not a lot of demons end up in dungeon because most of them are busy settling scores in their own realm, first.

There are some established themes that wouldn't make sense to contradict, like allowing TSO/Ely/Zin to be cool with a demonic or necromantic item. But then again even all of those "good" gods are totally cool with you killing lots and lots of sentient things, they just don't revel in it the same way (e.g.) Makhleb does. Plenty of holy creatures will still attack you if you worship a good god (you get a chance angels spawn allied with TSO IIRC, but that's it) and the undead and demons are very happy to attack you no matter what you worship.

[MDvedh]

Summing up all the thread.
We totally cannot do a dozen of new branches, that is obvious.
But we probably can do a dozen of God themed portal vaults, appearing in the late game (pan?).
I also like the idea of killing a God very much.
I also like the idea of "holy invasion" themed Hell (ending) vault.

[Tiktacy]

Summing up all the thread.
We totally cannot do a dozen of new branches, that is obvious.
But we probably can do a dozen of God themed portal vaults, appearing in the late game (pan?).
I also like the idea of killing a God very much.
I also like the idea of "holy invasion" themed Hell (ending) vault.

I want to see a a heaven branch that replaces hell like the forest does the crypt. For real, this would be cool as fuck.

[dpeg]

MDvedh: Start out with a single, simple portal vault, of a god of your choice. (Perhaps pick one that does not require much additional coding.) Doing a portal vault is not trivial, but much easier than doing a branch.

I don't think that players should be able to kill gods within the main game -- perhaps as an extra game like Sprint. Jivya can die but not the players beats the slime god but rather from lack of followers.

[Tiktacy]

MDvedh: Start out with a single, simple portal vault, of a god of your choice. (Perhaps pick one that does not require much additional coding.) Doing a portal vault is not trivial, but much easier than doing a branch.

I don't think that players should be able to kill gods within the main game -- perhaps as an extra game like Sprint. Jivya can die but not the players beats the slime god but rather from lack of followers.

I agree with this, it doesn't make sense since gods are immortal. Jiyva is just forgotten, he doesn't die.

What is your opinion on occasionally replacing hells with heavens? Of course, following good gods would not effect the creatures here, and it would give us the chance to create a bunch of really cool new holy creatures.

I'de love to hear if you are interested in hearing some brainstorming?

[ontoclasm]

The problem is how much work it would take. That's 4 and a half completely new branches, each filled with completely new monsters. Look at how much work Forest has taken; this would be at the very least four times as much.

[1010011010]

Jiyva is just forgotten, he doesn't die.

Jiyva will wrath you even with no followers, Jiyva is forgotten but hasn't forgotten you!

following good gods would not effect the creatures here, and it would give us the chance to create a bunch of really cool new holy creatures.)

Obviously having 4 post game branches being completely neutralised by your god choice would be ridiculous, but storming heaven during my holy crusade is also ridiculous.

Portals are a much better idea, especially if the god in question is hidden until entering.

[I want to believe]

I say, at some point in the far future, there should be a 10% chance that the vestibule of hell is replaced with a holy variant. There should probably be a different gate keeper, perhaps a unique demigod, or angel? The 4 branches in hell would be replaced with holy variants, one for TSO, one for Zin, probably not one for Evliyon, as fighting a bunch of friendly creatures doesn't seem to work well for a branch. Perhaps Sif Muna, or Okarawu, for the other two. Or maybe simply the vestibule would be replaced, and it would still have the hell branches entrances there.

[MoogleDan]

Obviously having 4 post game branches being completely neutralised by your god choice would be ridiculous, but storming heaven during my holy crusade is also ridiculous.

For storming the Heavens with holy characters, we could simply say that merely entering constitutes excommunication. It'd be nasty for good god-worshipers, but by no means game ending. They could be naughty up in the clouds, grab the Shining / Orderly / Salubrious Runes of Zot, leave, apologize at the nearest altar, grind a little piety, and all would be forgiven. Or they could switch to another god; you could theoretically do Heaven last and then just do the Ascension run with a neutral god or godless. Good gods only smite you if you worship someone evil.

[Tiktacy]

I say, at some point in the far future, there should be a 10% chance that the vestibule of hell is replaced with a holy variant. There should probably be a different gate keeper, perhaps a unique demigod, or angel? The 4 branches in hell would be replaced with holy variants, one for TSO, one for Zin, probably not one for Evliyon, as fighting a bunch of friendly creatures doesn't seem to work well for a branch. Perhaps Sif Muna, or Okarawu, for the other two. Or maybe simply the vestibule would be replaced, and it would still have the hell branches entrances there.

I like the last idea the most.

[I want to believe]

I say, at some point in the far future, there should be a 10% chance that the vestibule of hell is replaced with a holy variant. There should probably be a different gate keeper, perhaps a unique demigod, or angel? The 4 branches in hell would be replaced with holy variants, one for TSO, one for Zin, probably not one for Evliyon, as fighting a bunch of friendly creatures doesn't seem to work well for a branch. Perhaps Sif Muna, or Okarawu, for the other two. Or maybe simply the vestibule would be replaced, and it would still have the hell branches entrances there.

I like the last idea the most.

I do too, i'm just throwing some stuff out there.

[spudwalt]

Vestibule of Heaven, guarded by Mennas.

[Cyrus]

There was a once-upon a time brainstorm brought on by a Nethack player who assumed they were supposed to sacrifice the Orb to their god in Ecumenical Temple to win the game.

I don't recall whether it worked for them (if they were a Nemelex worshiper, ha...) but they didn't win the game.

But anyway, the proposal from long ago was to make fighting the gods an option as an Ultra Victory condition. On the orb run, stop by the temple, sacrifice the Orb to your god, and you get to fight one or more gods (it wasn't a fleshed out proposal). And you probably won't win, being an Ultra Victory and all. So do you feel lucky, punk?

[and into]

Heaven swap would be cool, for sure, but it is a lot of work and, in the meantime, we should first improve the Hell branches (especially) and Pan (less so, but still). Not trying to shoot down discussion, by all means continue throwing ideas out, but just putting this into perspective and all.

[Azrael]

How about instead of *killing* the gods, we simply assault their avatar/physical form? That should keep most of the flavour, while leaving the whole immortal thing out of it.

[varsovie]

I say, at some point in the far future, there should be a 10% chance that the vestibule of hell is replaced with a holy variant. There should probably be a different gate keeper, perhaps a unique demigod, or angel? The 4 branches in hell would be replaced with holy variants, one for TSO, one for Zin, probably not one for Evliyon, as fighting a bunch of friendly creatures doesn't seem to work well for a branch. Perhaps Sif Muna, or Okarawu, for the other two. Or maybe simply the vestibule would be replaced, and it would still have the hell branches entrances there.

Why not randomise the hell branches like in the lair. Have three of the four existing one and one holy between the choices you propose. That way it randomize a bit the "hell kit" required.

[roctavian]

I think something more feasible would be to create a fifth unique Pan Lord, a holy one to go with the holy level, and a holy rune with it. Then, have this Pan lord rotate out with Mnoleg or Lom Lobon. Veto if player worships TSO, unless all the holy enemies could be flagged in a way to accommodate challenge for TSO players.

[MDvedh]

I think something more feasible would be to create a fifth unique Pan Lord, a holy one to go with the holy level, and a holy rune with it.

I love that idea too, how about fallen God, used to be a good one, with loyal angels (and maybe profane servitors as "fallen angels").

[MoogleDan]

I think something more feasible would be to create a fifth unique Pan Lord, a holy one to go with the holy level, and a holy rune with it. Then, have this Pan lord rotate out with Mnoleg or Lom Lobon. Veto if player worships TSO, unless all the holy enemies could be flagged in a way to accommodate challenge for TSO players.

"A test of your strength, mortal! Overcome this trial at your own peril!"

All holy monsters slain on that Pan level are durably summoned, so they're immune to Abjurations and never time out, but the flavour of holy opposition is unchanged. Sure the player misses out on one Pan level's worth of XP, but I doubt anyone's gonna really notice at that point

[1010011010]

I think something more feasible would be to create a fifth unique Pan Lord, a holy one to go with the holy level, and a holy rune with it.

Good Idea, At first I thought not to spawn this level for good god worshippers, but alternatively why not make Angels ect. all friendly excluding the Pan lord (Who would never deem you worthy). The Pan lord is the big obstacle anyway, most of Pan is fodder and like MoogleDan said; no ones going to notice the experience loss.