Deep Dwarfs A Little OP?

[lordhamshire]

That damage reduction is a bit ridiculous isn't it? Especially later on, and starting with a wand of healing identified, that you can recharge, is pretty nuts. Idk, maybe I'm crazy.

[Mankeli]

That damage reduction is a bit ridiculous isn't it? Especially later on, and starting with a wand of healing identified, that you can recharge, is pretty nuts. Idk, maybe I'm crazy.

I think DD is the easiest species in crawl so no, you are not crazy.

[Igxfl]

The races aren't all balanced against each other -- sometimes they act like a soft version of difficulty settings. Deep Dwarves are generally considered to be one of the strongest options.

On the other hand, the lack of natural healing can be very restrictive once those wand charges run out. A lot of choices aren't as open to Deep Dwarves as they are to other races because DD's are basically required to have a background, god, or lucky early loot that allows renewable healing. That doesn't make them any weaker, though, just less flexible.

[lordhamshire]

Yeah, I know the races aren't balanced, I just thought maybe Deep Dwarves should be dialed down a bit.

[Klown]

I wish there was another dwarf option available, similar to there being 2 elves instead of 1, and nearly a 2nd orc.(lava orc)

[varsovie]

I wish there was another dwarf option available, similar to there being 2 elves instead of 1, and nearly a 2nd orc.(lava orc)

It was cut of in 0.10. http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/whisper-farewell-when-you-leave-gimli

[Klown]

Yeah I know. :p Just a new one would be nice <3 imo

[Igxfl]

Yeah I know. :p Just a new one would be nice <3 imo

Are you suggesting that we, say, bring back Mountain Dwarves? I don't know if you should suggest that...

[Jeremiah]

I guess they could be nerfed by giving them some potions of heal wounds instead of the wand of healing. I'm sure this must have been considered and rejected at some point.

[Sandman25]

That means death if altars for Makhleb/Trog are on D9.

[dck]

But necromancers exist, so do healers.

[Wahaha]

DD being able to play more than 2 classes and pick more than 2 gods reliably is nice though.

[dck]

Oh yeah not saying they should lose the wand.
Btw I don't mind DD being OP but it's frustrating that you should kite every giant skeleton in low D when you're one not to waste HW or ely/trog heals.

[Klown]

Yeah I know. :p Just a new one would be nice <3 imo

Are you suggesting that we, say, bring back Mountain Dwarves? I don't know if you should suggest that...

Just a dwarf that actually heals passively. :p

[duvessa]

DD should start without the wand or any potions IMO. Also, DD shouldn't exist. But at the very least it shouldn't start with items that make the overwhelmingly most important part of the game completely trivial.

[earLOBe]

Well, we can't just bring back MD if we want a dwarf other than DD...

If you want new dwarfs, start brainstorming until you come up with something that might work. It's not difficult and the only risk is going off to CYC (Dwarvenspawn - their beard mutates as they level up?):
Unborn dwarf: Undead with great magic/stabby attributes, doesn't lose nutrition over time but only gains it by killing the living. Can use lichform for extended. Terrible UC apts, but pain brand on them?
Wasteland dwarf: Slow movement, high defensive apts/weak offensive. Innate rpois and damage shaving from ranged attacks and clouds. Defensive where Na is offensive.
Fjord dwarf: Small size w/out the weapon restrictions, rC and a bit of AC with levels (like thick fur). Immune to freezing clouds. Great at shields, poor at dodging, average at armour. Can apply temporary freezing brand for statloss.
Blink dwarf: Like a blink frog, you blink uncontrollably. Good ranged apts, but can't learn many translocations. It is vulnerable to silver and adored by Xom.

[Tiktacy]

Well, we can't just bring back MD if we want a dwarf other than DD...

If you want new dwarfs, start brainstorming until you come up with something that might work. It's not difficult and the only risk is going off to CYC (Dwarvenspawn - their beard mutates as they level up?):
Unborn dwarf: Undead with great magic/stabby attributes, doesn't lose nutrition over time but only gains it by killing the living. Can use lichform for extended. Terrible UC apts, but pain brand on them?
Wasteland dwarf: Slow movement, high defensive apts/weak offensive. Innate rpois and damage shaving from ranged attacks and clouds. Defensive where Na is offensive.
Fjord dwarf: Small size w/out the weapon restrictions, rC and a bit of AC with levels (like thick fur). Immune to freezing clouds. Great at shields, poor at dodging, average at armour. Can apply temporary freezing brand for statloss.
Blink dwarf: Like a blink frog, you blink uncontrollably. Good ranged apts, but can't learn many translocations. It is vulnerable to silver and adored by Xom.

We currently have 2 species in development in the trunk, and formicids 'seem' to be coming up soon as well. 3 species in the trunk is fine, but having a 4th would just be "too much junk in the trunk".

Although, I do like the idea of unborn dwarves, but it could use some work.

[Lasty]

yo dawg i heard you like dwarves so we put a dwarf in your dwarf so you can dwarf while you dwarf.

[and into]

Yeah, I know the races aren't balanced, I just thought maybe Deep Dwarves should be dialed down a bit.

Okay, but *how*?

Starting with one of the best items in the game is insane. But if one simply took it away, then DDs would be even *more* railroaded into extremely narrow background / god combos. And slow healing 3 is potentially a very interesting affliciton to have to work around throughout the game.

One simple change would be to take away their wand and replace it with an additional ability.

So, something like:

DD's keep their "wand recharge" ability as it currently is, but also give them some "self-heal" ability (flavor-wise, this can be described as the same sort of ability as wand-recharge, but channeled back into your own body rather than into an item) which has, let's say, a one-in-three chance (or something) to cost 1 max MP when used, and gives the DD a special temporary "suped-up regeneration" status that overrides slow healing 3. You can now heal yourself perfectly fine, strategically, but not very well tactically.

Currently, the wand of heal wounds does both strategic and tactical healing. Actually, the wand does *tactical* better, at least for higher level characters, which can actually lead to annoying situations where late-game characters get hit by one torment or nasty spell despite good play and then have to dump out like 4 charges to get back to high HP. Unlike wand of heal wounds—which, if changed to accommodate DDs, will be changed for everyone who finds it—the self-recharge ability is specific to DDs and could be tweaked to scale better with character level than the wand does, leading to less of this sort of late game annoyance.

Add "self-recharge" as per above—a cost of 1 mp for each usage is probably a bit too high, that's why I suggested a "1 in 3" chance for max MP cost. Then start the guys out with a couple potions of heal wounds, and a couple of curing. DDs would still be extremely strong if and when they find a wand of heal wounds, but that applies to all characters (well, except Felids). With the above change, DDs would be perfectly playable, but wouldn't start with one of the best items in the game, which is the thing that *really* puts them into "lol what?" territory, in my opinion. The damage shaving + slow healing 3 combo works nicely and is interesting, *except* for the fact that you start with a wand of heal wounds.

[pratamawirya]

How about giving them a Wand of Regeneration or something?

[and into]

How about giving them a Wand of Regeneration or something?

That's a bit more direct, but then it raises a kind of awkward question. Does "wand of regeneration" then become an item that can spawn for all characters? I don't think you could justify adding a wand of regeneration for all characters. Only DDs and maybe occasionally vampires would get much use out of it, and perhaps some dudes worshiping good gods if the wand version of regeneration doesn't count as necromancy (and presumably it wouldn't, since the rings of regen don't). And the very rare occasions when people have the great misfortune of mutating slow healing 2 or 3. For everyone else there are already rings of regeneration and troll leather armor and a pretty common level 3 charms/necromancy spell.

The other way to go would be to add wand of regeneration, but make it a special item that is never generated as loot by the RNG, and only ever spawns in the starting inventory of DDs who begin a new game. But... I don't know, that just feels weird. There aren't any other items for which that is the case (except the background Jesters that were added as an april fool's joke for a little while then removed). It would be a weird precedent and would raise a number of questions. Should DDs ever be able to drop their wand of regeneration? How do you make it clear to players that this wand you have is literally irreplaceable, unlike all non-artefact items in the game (including all other wands)? Etc. etc. Maybe it is just me, but it makes a lot more sense, I think, for species-specific things to be granted through species-specific abilities, rather than species-specific items that they start with.

(Sure, there are bardings, but naga and centaur do not *start* with them. If they did, there'd be no reason not to simply give them a bit more AC when they spawn and on level-up, and then just make boots unavailable. The whole point of items is that you need to *find* them before you use them—that is, aside from overpoweredness, what bugs me about having a species that starts with wand of heal wounds, regardless of background. On the other hand, with species-specific abilities, you are always guaranteed either to start with them or to develop them later on after leveling up. So if we were to remove wand of heal wounds from DD's starting backpack, a "regeneration at cost of max MP" effect to replace it makes more sense to be implemented as a species ability for DD, rather than a new item.)

[galehar]

Changing the DD's wand of heal wounds to a wand of regeneration seems like a good way to nerf them while living them with a limited strategic healing.
And I don't think the wand of regeneration needs to be exclusive to them. It could be available to everyone without being neither irrelevant nor OP.

[BlackSheep]

Would it open up the regeneration spell as a source of regen for DD too? Or would the wand's effect be treated separately, as Trog's Hand is?

[dpeg]

BlackSheep: Regeneration spell would defeat the point. The wand is a limited tool, the spell an infinite one.

[pubby]

Honestly, why not give all Deep Dwarfs Mahkleb-style healing?

[BlackSheep]

BlackSheep: Regeneration spell would defeat the point. The wand is a limited tool, the spell an infinite one.

Perhaps a name change for the wand would be in order, then.

[DracheReborn]

Personally, I prefer and_into's proposal: take away the wand and wand recharge ability, replace with a self-heal ability with maxmp cost. Maybe even call it self-restoration, a la mummies. DD's version would give limited regen, and maybe restore stats too (stat loss on DD's are just annoying, IMO).

Honestly, why not give all Deep Dwarfs Mahkleb-style healing?

That seems very strong.

[Siegurt]

Well, currently the "wand recharge" ability heals a DD for around 40-150 hps, split up as needed, and they get 5 charges to start with (Which is 1-3 MP's worth of charge)

So in order for "self regen" to be a roughly equal amount of healing (Note that if we just made it "self heal" it would just internalize the wand, making it not take up space, and I read the point as "take away the tactical benefit while retaining the strategic flexibility") We'd have to make the "self regen" ability:

1. Regen 20-30 hps a shot
2. Take up an *average* of 0.3 Max MP per use.
3. We'd have to give DD's an extra few max MP to start the game with (which isn't a big deal)

Which sounds pretty awkward to me, personally.

I like the wand of regeneration idea better personally because:
1. We already have consumables that are more powerful than the spell/activated versions (Aka blink)
2. It lets DD find and use a heal wand late game for tactical advantage
3. It lets DD keep the "recharge things that aren't heal wands" advantage they have now (Which isn't overpowered and can be an interesting choice IMHO)
4. I think it would be an interesting item for non-DD's to have (particularly if it regens faster than the spell/evocables, say 20-30hps spread over 15 turns)

Of course it adds another source of healing to the game, which might be a bad thing ultimately, I'm not sure (Although generation rates could be balanced to make it not so much of a problem)

[Jeremiah]

How about a wand of vampiric draining that works like the spell? (but weaker at low evocations so it doesn't instantly kill everything on the first few levels.)

[indspenceable]

How about a wand of vampiric draining that works like the spell? (but weaker at low evocations so it doesn't instantly kill everything on the first few levels.)

Please no. That would make DD's even more unplayable than they are now.

While DD's are OP (I can tell cause everyone says that) it still does depend on play style. For me, I've never won a DD; despite their good aptitudes the healing feels like too much of a penalty to me. Whatever you guys do to fix the balance, please don't make the race more obnoxious to play.

[DracheReborn]

(Note that if we just made it "self heal" it would just internalize the wand, making it not take up space, and I read the point as "take away the tactical benefit while retaining the strategic flexibility")

Or self-heal could just take multiple turns. If you think about it, regen is basically multi-turn healing for DDs.

3. It lets DD keep the "recharge things that aren't heal wands" advantage they have now (Which isn't overpowered and can be an interesting choice IMHO)

I like this mechanic too, but I think it could be reused elsewhere. It's not like DD would miss it otherwise.

For me, an entire race starting with a wand is just weird. I thought equipment is supposed to go with backgrounds.

[dpeg]

Maybe I should chime in, because Deep Dwarves are my concoction. The background was that modern roguelike design would shy away from resting (regaining MP, HP or something similar) over time -- that's a classic, but very clumsy, approach. I never thought we could change something so basic in a mature game as is Crawl, so the best I could come up with were 1.5 species (the half one is bloodless Vampire).

Now DD has to be able to replete lost HP in some way -- and without changing balance for the other species (so just generating more healing potions is out of the question). It's clear that a few gods can fill the bill, but we found that that's too minor for a whole species. The solution with a starting wand of healing is a quite clumsy mechanic , but it does have some advantages: there is now a recharing and MP management minigame , and in principle other wands could also be recharged.

Perhaps it might make sense to change the MP recharging cost for the type of wand: 2 MP for top tier wands (healing, hasting, teleportation), 1 MP for all the other ones? Back then, we were so afraid of the no-healing prospects that the damage shaving was much stronger than now.

[Siegurt]

Actually a lot of races modify starting equipment (Potion of Porridge, smaller shield/body armour or robes where appropriate etc.) but generally yes, the overall "starting equipment" goes with the background.

[Siegurt]

Maybe I should chime in, because Deep Dwarves are my concoction. The background was that modern roguelike design would shy away from resting (regaining MP, HP or something similar) over time -- that's a classic, but very clumsy, approach. I never thought we could change something so basic in a mature game as is Crawl, so the best I could come up with were 1.5 species (the half one is bloodless Vampire).

Now DD has to be able to replete lost HP in some way -- and without changing balance for the other species (so just generating more healing potions is out of the question). It's clear that a few gods can fill the bill, but we found that that's too minor for a whole species. The solution with a starting wand of healing is a quite clumsy mechanic , but it does have some advantages: there is now a recharing and MP management minigame , and in principle other wands could also be recharged.

Perhaps it might make sense to change the MP recharging cost for the type of wand: 2 MP for top tier wands (healing, hasting, teleportation), 1 MP for all the other ones? Back then, we were so afraid of the no-healing prospects that the damage shaving was much stronger than now.

Well the problem isn't the cost or the amount of healing bestowed, it's that healing is a great tactical wand *in addition to* being the way that DD's can heal. If you increased the recharge cost, early DD's would be in a world of hurt and it wouldn't make much difference for late DD's at all.

The suggestion for changing it to 'regen' rather than 'heal' wand-wise really is just to remove how good the tactical elements of the wand are.

Perhaps wands of healing could *for DD only* bestow the HPs regained over time (like 2/turn or somesuch) leaving potions of healing alone for the tactical needs. Basically then they could start with a wand of healing as they do now, but it wouldn't be the godsend for a later game tactical needs that it can be now. It'd have the side advantage of making potions of healing more useful for DDs.

[reaver]

On DD: I think their set of mechanics would work much better for a god. This would allow for more careful rationing of healing supplies. For example, maybe you'd get healing potions as gifts instead of a !heal wounds. Currently, you to find some sort of reliable healing as a DD, which restricts options to Necromancy, Trog, Elyvilon, Makhleb and maybe a couple more I'm missing. Switching their abilities to a no-healing god would allow the mechanics to be used with Octopodes, Vampires, Felids, Orcs, Deep Elves, Mummies, Spriggans, etc.

[dpeg]

Oh, another thing: while DD is considered easy mode, this is of course only true with the appropriate combo. You can play more challenging DDs and I think that's fine.

[Siegurt]

Indeed I won a 3 rune game as a DDAr^Nemelex, which was *not* an easy-mode combo (Getting god healing only via the odd elixir, alchemy or potion card is pretty restrictive) Despite Nemelex being a pretty powerful god.

[and into]

Even though I think DDs are perhaps OP in certain combos, I think they are interesting. I like that one species can be (with appropriate background and god) easy, but extremely difficult. DDs run the gauntlet from power-game (in a few narrow combos) to a challenge run, which is really neat, and not (quite) replicated by any other species.

I agree with dpeg that wand of heal wounds was a workable but somewhat clumsy solution to get DD implemented. But at least wands of heal wounds existed before DD, right? Adding wand of regeneration entirely, just so DD have that kind of wand, seems even clumsier to me. I guess it would be useful enough? Who knows.

Dpeg: If you are going to up the MP cost for high end wands, probably the simplest interface for this would be to cut the average number of charges one gets from DDs ability in half, for healing / hasting / teleportation (and invisibility?)—if wand of regen is added, I think that should count as a non-high end wand and get regular amount from DD's recharge. I think that is a bit simpler than having a variable cost. Maybe you should leave in a small chance for getting a higher amount of charges. A bit of variance here isn't bad, and gives a (small) incentive not to keep wand topped off all the time, as that would otherwise be ideal. (Let's say your DD finds a wand of HW, and you get, e.g., 1 or 2 charges to it from each use of the ability, then it is technically optimal to keep exactly 7 charges on wand at all time—this is a bit silly and spoilery. With some variance giving you a chance at 3 or 4 charges, you'd keep the wand about half full, which is less annoying anyway.)

Siegurt: I totally guessed the "1 in 3" chance to take a point of MP away being a fair cost for a self-regeneration ability. I didn't expect it to be right on the money! I think I'll buy myself a cookie. And you are completely correct, the idea is, how do we make DDs starting access to healing purely strategic, while also making it limited? Note that, instead of two or three more MP, I simply suggested a couple of potions to compensate for very early game, but a bit more MP would work too—the advantage of that is, it would encourage players to use the ability right from the start. People get really hung up on permanent costs. Also: My point about "weirdness" was directed only in the case that wand of regen *only* ever spawned on DD, and was never found in dungeon. Potions of porrige can be found by other characters. But if people feel that a wand of regen would be useful for other characters, by all means use that as well.

I kind of feel a wand of regen would be really redundant for all species except DD and (to lesser extent) vampire. If it stacks with spell I guess everyone could get a bit more use out of it, but I'd imagine it would just become a mandatory wand for Hell branches. IMO regen just isn't the kind of effect that makes sense to offer through a wand, to be honest.

[duvessa]

Oh, another thing: while DD is considered easy mode, this is of course only true with the appropriate combo. You can play more challenging DDs and I think that's fine.

There is ONE background (AK) for which DD is not either the strongest species or extremely close. "You can play more challenging DDs" is incorrect use of the plural.

[johlstei]

There are a lot of gods to go with those backgrounds which are tough though. Are you sure about DDDK(Drain life is not enough), DDCK, DDAE, DDEN?

vvv Okay so you are saying DD is the easiest race for those backgrounds if you go Makhleb, not really doubting that. He didn't say backgrounds though, so I'm not sure what you were refuting with your plural there, there are plenty of gods to make for challenging DDs. Why not AK then, is it because merfolk/octopodes can maybe kill something there?

[duvessa]

Are you sure about DDDK(Drain life is not enough)

The wand makes it trivial to get to a Makhleb altar and Yred wrath is only bad if you are a mummy (confusion). In fact Yred abilities are good enough to go a pretty long time without using the wand at all, if you want.

DDCK

The wand makes it trivial to get to a Makhleb altar and Xom wrath barely does anything at all.

DDAE

The wand makes it trivial to get to a Makhleb altar and you also start with one of the most ridiculous spells in the game (swiftness), the -3 air aptitude is pretty meaningless.

DDEN

The wand makes it trivial to get to a Makhleb altar and En is just good in general, not sure what you're even trying to say with this one. Both this and AE are better than Fi for every species in the game.

[XuaXua]

Are you sure about DDDK(Drain life is not enough)

The wand makes it trivial to get to a Makhleb altar

DDCK

The wand makes it trivial to get to a Makhleb altar

DDAE

The wand makes it trivial to get to a Makhleb altar

DDEN

The wand makes it trivial to get to a Makhleb altar

Yeah, playing the game the exact same way every time is tons of fun!

[pratamawirya]

Well then, wand of regeneration would be a good addition to the game. Think of it as the weaker version of wand of healing, just like with frost/ice and flame/fire.

[XuaXua]

Well then, wand of regeneration would be a good addition to the game. Think of it as the weaker version of wand of healing, just like with frost/ice and flame/fire.

Regeneration is disabled for Deep Dwarves. The spell, the ring and troll armour are useless for them in that regard.

[WalkerBoh]

Oh, another thing: while DD is considered easy mode, this is of course only true with the appropriate combo. You can play more challenging DDs and I think that's fine.

Unfortunately the difficulty is purely dependent on god choice - all DD chars are equally easy to win except the ones that require abandoning a god to get regen. So you either have easy mode (trog, mak, TSO, ely) or exceptionally hard mode (everyone else). Jiyva is the only in-between one in my opinion.

A change that introduces a DD that could be played at a level of difficulty somewhere between trivially easy and stupidly hard would be a very positive change. I think we are on the right track with suggestions to replace wand of hw, which is mainly to blame for trivializing games.