Chei stat boost


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 195

Joined: Thursday, 3rd February 2011, 13:14

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 11:04

Chei stat boost

It's really kind of strange that the snail god increases your dexterity to astronomical levels. Int and str are slightly strange too, but dex is strangest.

It's also not very well documented in-game just how well pondering all your armour boosts your stats. First time I played with Chei, I figured that as a naga I didn't need to ponder any of my gear at all since I was already slow.

Once I found out (in the wiki), I got a DS Wizard into the extended engame rather easily (he died to Cerebov, who I for some reason tried to Iron Bolt instead of Shattering at max power) It felt like cheating, using an exploit. Even though the character never found a pair of boots in the entire game, so he missed out on +5 on all stats.

That's not even taking into account his other powers. Slouch alone would be worth playing this god for.
Crazy Yiuf mutters: "Good: bonuses. Bad: Boni. Ugly: Bonii!"

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 12:15

Re: Chei stat boost

I added the stat boost at a very late moment. The idea was to show players in a very direct way that with this god, slower is better. (We will do something similar with the curses god, but not stats, and hopefully a bit better thought out.) With hindsight, the stat boost itself is a pretty crude passive power, but may actually be acceptable (both flavour-wise and for gameplay). What I don't like about the mechanic is how it puts species with less than five armour slots at a disadvantage.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 116

Joined: Saturday, 18th December 2010, 11:32

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 12:54

Re: Chei stat boost

Well, it's fine that it was added and it performs its function, but this explanation shows it's a crutch and while crutches are fine (after all, you don't always get the best ideas in time) and sometimes good enough to stay, this one probably isn't. The stat boost is a dull and flavourless (and unevenly discriminating) bonus. Its redeeming quality is that it uniquely supports heavy armour mages (and Blade Hands, I guess), though why a Snail God would do that is a mystery (unless someone sees the explanation above, but that's just a small fraction of players and the explanation just reveals its a mechanic forcibly added on). I think that it would be best to replace Chei's stat boost with something more thematic eventually (and perhaps move the stat boosts to another [perhaps yet undesigned] god or something else, like demigods). What it might be, I have no idea yet.

What I don't like about the mechanic is how it puts species with less than five armour slots at a disadvantage.


Also, this is actually a different issue than the stat boost. This would be solved by finding another way to slow yourself down to increase the benefits gained from Chei worship.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 12:59

Re: Chei stat boost

The criticism is fair, but also cheap. I know this is not ideal. But I don't have a good replacement at hand.
While it is true that everything can be balanced without reference to visible effects (like HP, MP, stats, AC, EV, skills, resistances), it seems very desirable to me to have such effects for Cheibriados: the idea of slowing yourself is counter-intuitive (this is part of the charm of the god, at least to some). And while it should be clear that there will be compensation, and there is, it seems psychologically reassuring to get this point across right away. (I am not afraid that players might think the visible effect is all compensation there is: they will learn soon enough about Slouch.)
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 332

Joined: Friday, 4th February 2011, 18:04

Location: The South, US

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 13:09

Re: Chei stat boost

Well, I've always kinda thought of Chei as this slow-moving sensei ("Quickness in stillness," or some such), so the stat boost always seemed in character to me.

I believe the dev-wiki has had two major ideas concerning Pondering items: that Chei should gift 0 AC 0 EVP Ponderous items that fit all species, or that Chei could ponder jewelry. (The jewelry idea isn't on the Chei wiki page, though).
Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
TSE

Snake Sneak

Posts: 116

Joined: Saturday, 18th December 2010, 11:32

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 13:50

Re: Chei stat boost

dpeg wrote:The criticism is fair, but also cheap. I know this is not ideal. But I don't have a good replacement at hand.


Sorry, I didn't intend to come off like that. I just wanted to make sure that the issue is voiced well enough, because oftentimes things don't get changed for the better if nobody complains loudly enough (generally in life, not necessarily in DCSS design, you dev guys are usually on top of things). So, now that we know that you agree with the criticism, there's nothing left to do but brainstorming good ideas to fix the issue.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 60

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 14:41

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 14:46

Re: Chei stat boost

dpeg wrote:The criticism is fair, but also cheap. I know this is not ideal. But I don't have a good replacement at hand.


How about having chei slowness depend on piety, not on items? This way, you get the slowness, the piety, and don't have the ponderous mechanic which is one of the things about chei I would like to see changed. To combat the fact you can now switch armour the rF+ rC+ rN+ boosts can be removed.
Go kiku!
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 332

Joined: Friday, 4th February 2011, 18:04

Location: The South, US

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 15:02

Re: Chei stat boost

That seems like a simple fix (especially for draconians!), but wouldn't slowness and stats dependent on piety give Chei a huge power boost? You could wear artefacts instead of just enchanted armou. Wouldn't that, depending on RNG, more than make up for the resists you would lose in the early game? Also, something worth considering is that piety gain early on would be incredibly slow early on (bats, snakes, centaurs), and downright impossible for some races.
Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
TSE

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1531

Joined: Saturday, 5th March 2011, 06:29

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 15:03

Re: Chei stat boost

For something more suitably themed to a snail god; how about a gradual effect where you actually grow a shell and/or a slime coating - increasing AC and leaving trails (I saw a discussion elsewhere about snails leaving trails which would impede monster movement).

Additionally you'd get an ability to hide in your shell which could be occasionally useful.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 15:21

Re: Chei stat boost

The problem with the idea of slowness from piety is that "ponderous" is an existing ego: it makes you move slower. Don't think that that should be overridden.
You are all right that the basic problem about lack of armour slots is (lack of) slowness not stats. To be honest, I have no idea how much Draconians, say, are crippled in terms of piety and challenge. Anyone played Dr^Chei for reals, or is it a automatically a challenge?
User avatar

Halls Hopper

Posts: 71

Joined: Monday, 28th February 2011, 08:21

Location: Ukraine

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 15:26

Re: Chei stat boost

Snails do not appear to be related to Chei, the god of time (see discussion on the wiki - God brainstorm): in fact, the only snail reference is the snail-covered altar which probably is to be replaced with something more time-related.

Chei also requires you to wear non-artefact armour to make it ponderous - so you have to bye-bye to part of your shiny findings. Those with more armour slots are particularly crippled as they might lose the most benefit from artefacts.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 195

Joined: Thursday, 3rd February 2011, 13:14

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 15:40

Re: Chei stat boost

Slime trails? No, there's one slimy god already. Personally I'd much rather worship a turtle than a snail :)

The "make ponderous" mechanic is OK I suppose, but the gameplay difference of being slower than average (1 slot) to very much slower than average (all slots, max piety) isn't all that great. The game effect is that you can't effectively run away. Once you've found a way to work around that (usually involving translocations, but increased firepower from the stat boost is surprisingly sufficient), you could be almost as immobile as Roxanne, and it wouldn't matter much.

I think a "shell" would be more thematic than int/str/dex boost. Some combination of increased AC, increased HP, damage shaving or possibly regeneration. While casting hungerless 7-level spells is cool, it's kind of counterintuitive that it should be such a benefit for worshippers of the slow god.

(I have a serious deja vu about this thread, didn't we talk about this before? But probably my mind is playing tricks on me right now)
Crazy Yiuf mutters: "Good: bonuses. Bad: Boni. Ugly: Bonii!"

Spider Stomper

Posts: 195

Joined: Thursday, 3rd February 2011, 13:14

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 15:43

Re: Chei stat boost

hayenne wrote: Chei also requires you to wear non-artefact armour to make it ponderous - so you have to bye-bye to part of your shiny findings. Those with more armour slots are particularly crippled as they might lose the most benefit from artefacts.


You don't have to say goodbye to your shiny findings. You're free to spare a slot or two for really good randart armour. The fact that you will almost never have to, is a testament to just how powerful the stat boost is (how often can you hope to find a set that gives three resists and +45 combined stat bonus?)
Crazy Yiuf mutters: "Good: bonuses. Bad: Boni. Ugly: Bonii!"

Blades Runner

Posts: 546

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 14:25

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 16:11

Re: Chei stat boost

Right now, races with 5 armour slots get +1 for the first slot, then +2, +3, +4 and +5, for +15 total.

Giving species with reduced armour slots larger bonuses might help, but it might be very powerful. A draconian with 3 armour slots could get first +3, then +4 and finally +5 for the slots, for +10 total. This would make Chei stronger for species with fewer armour slots since they would be less ponderous. I don't know if this is desirable as Chei is strong already. It would also make the mid-game, in which the character develops piety by wearing ponderous armour, somewhat easier owing to larger early stat boosts. This would be balanced by slower maximum piety gain, which mean less slouch.

Two a related notes, I think ponderousness would make a good malus to randart armours. If it's used as all as such, it could be used more. It would also make lucky Chei worshiper very happy.

Blades Runner

Posts: 554

Joined: Tuesday, 25th January 2011, 14:24

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 16:39

Re: Chei stat boost

smock wrote:Right now, races with 5 armour slots get +1 for the first slot, then +2, +3, +4 and +5, for +15 total.

Giving species with reduced armour slots larger bonuses might help, but it might be very powerful. A draconian with 3 armour slots could get first +3, then +4 and finally +5 for the slots, for +10 total. This would make Chei stronger for species with fewer armour slots since they would be less ponderous. I don't know if this is desirable as Chei is strong already. It would also make the mid-game, in which the character develops piety by wearing ponderous armour, somewhat easier owing to larger early stat boosts. This would be balanced by slower maximum piety gain, which mean less slouch.

Doesn't slouch damage also depend on relative speed? So it would do less damage for those not as slow races as well.
Two a related notes, I think ponderousness would make a good malus to randart armours. If it's used as all as such, it could be used more. It would also make lucky Chei worshiper very happy.


It already does appear in randarts, according to the wiki (salt to taste.) I seem to remember finding ponderous randart gear before, but not in a while.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 116

Joined: Saturday, 18th December 2010, 11:32

Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 23:00

Re: Chei stat boost

dpeg wrote:The problem with the idea of slowness from piety is that "ponderous" is an existing ego: it makes you move slower. Don't think that that should be overridden.


I don't think that Chei making you ponderous by piety would be confusing to players or anything. Both an effect named that way and an ego could coexist, especially if they did the same thing (moving slower). Also, the game balance probably wouldn't be injured if there was a character who finds a bunch of ponderous items to get really really slow and get that extra Slouch damage. Then, we could get rid of the stat bonuses because they are not necessary to convince anyone that slower is better with Chei, because he forces them to be.

This has several effects:

* loss of voluntary slowing to be a more pious Cheibriadite (unless you find some rare ponderous gear) - but is there a point in worshipping Chei and not being slow? Should there even be one? After all, Chei is all about the slow conduct, choosing him and not being slow seems like a rather pointless option.
* if "Make ponderous" goes away, Cheibriadites could use randarts freely. That seems like a plus to me, having to rely on egos to make them ponderous and shunning randarts isn't particularly fun, even though it's powerful with current bonuses
* potentially abusive behaviour by spamming your costliest invocation to increase your speed (by reducing piety). That could be annoying if it was worthwhile in any situation. I'm not sure if it would be a problem, it doesn't seem that you would gain a benefit fast enough for it to matter (you must spam the invocation for several turns and you'll end up at one star anyway, which I assume would translate to one level of ponderousness, so not particularly fast).
* piety gain speed increases with... piety. That's easy to fix, just tinker with the formula (e.g. divide the final piety gain in current formula by piety stars)

All in all, this doesn't seem like a bad idea for me. I would be more interested in playing Cheibriadites with such a change, because it's more flavourful, less annoying (finding randart armour with a Cheibriadite is a letdown; deciding whether to ponder my gear or wait for enchant scrolls isn't particularly fun either) and it isn't discriminating slot-limited races.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Monday, 31st January 2011, 03:23

Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 08:28

Re: Chei stat boost

There are some things I don't like about ponderous by piety.

* For an early Chei worshipper, how many ponderous items to wear is an interesting choice. You might not want to go full blown if you're still just struggling to stay alive.
* Deciding between artifacts or chei boosts and when exactly to ponder armor are interesting and unique mechanics.
* Deciding whether to remove ponderous armor for a specific occasion (like the orb ascent) is an interesting decision. I'm not sure how often people do this, but the orb ascent as a chei worshipper is particularly painful, so I can see switching out being viable.
* On a different note, a player might not notice their increasing ponderousness with piety because it happens automatically. I know that I often miss the exact moments when I gain a point of piety with a god, even when there's a message given. While the ponderous levels aren't *that* different in terms of play, unnoticed differences in movement speed could still be bad. In contrast, putting on armor is an active, conscious that a player isn't likely to forget. It's also much more thematic that you're choosing to slow yourself by putting on the enchanted armor, instead of it all just happening (relatively) silently and automatically.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 195

Joined: Thursday, 3rd February 2011, 13:14

Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 08:54

Re: Chei stat boost

I'm in favor of keeping the "make ponderous" ability, it does add some interesting decisions (and is a benefit in itself in some places, read: Slime). Ponderousness on jewelry is a possible fix for the armorless races, but if the object of bonus is changed from stats into something else (as I think it should), it could maybe be less than 5 levels at max. As I said, I don't think the gameplay differences from -3 speed and -5 speed are that significant.
Crazy Yiuf mutters: "Good: bonuses. Bad: Boni. Ugly: Bonii!"

Snake Sneak

Posts: 116

Joined: Saturday, 18th December 2010, 11:32

Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 10:26

Re: Chei stat boost

Cybermg wrote:* For an early Chei worshipper, how many ponderous items to wear is an interesting choice. You might not want to go full blown if you're still just struggling to stay alive.


Well, you wouldn't get too slow

* Deciding between artifacts or chei boosts and when exactly to ponder armor are interesting and unique mechanics.


Unique, yes. Interesting, currently not really, you'd be hard pressed to find an artifact that's worth forgoing a part of Chei boost. I think that Chei would be better served as a pure slowness god, not a god of slowness and limited armour choice.

* Deciding whether to remove ponderous armor for a specific occasion (like the orb ascent) is an interesting decision. I'm not sure how often people do this, but the orb ascent as a chei worshipper is particularly painful, so I can see switching out being viable.


I'm not sure that possibility of cheating the conduct when it's really inconvenient is a plus from adesign standpoint.

* On a different note, a player might not notice their increasing ponderousness with piety because it happens automatically. I know that I often miss the exact moments when I gain a point of piety with a god, even when there's a message given. While the ponderous levels aren't *that* different in terms of play, unnoticed differences in movement speed could still be bad. In contrast, putting on armor is an active, conscious that a player isn't likely to forget. It's also much more thematic that you're choosing to slow yourself by putting on the enchanted armor, instead of it all just happening (relatively) silently and automatically.


Well, I don't think that it would be a significant difference except in the case of getting your first level of ponderousness. Nonetheless, it's still a good point, but it can be solved in several ways.
  • Make the piety change message require a conscious action to be skipped (perhaps only when you get slower)
  • Add an indicator of your ponderousness a la "Fast" (though probably it wouldn't change often enough to justify usage of this resource)
  • Add movement speed indicator to the character's stats

vintermann wrote:(and is a benefit in itself in some places, read: Slime)


Why should Chei benefit you in that situation specifically? There's no link between Chei's agenda and that, except for a purely mechanical one.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 10:42

Re: Chei stat boost

zasvid: many thanks for the proposal, it is an interesting concept. I lean more towards cybermg's opinion, though.

Some comments:
cybermg: in 0.8 you will _finally_ see the piety stars on the main screen. Please praise MarvinPA for this!
zasvid: I agree that having to forfeit all randarts can be a annoying. However, you don't really _have_ to, it is a choice. Optimal play should not always take the ponderous item, at least that's my hope. I'd like to keep the choice, but would also want to throw a randart bone to Cheibriadites: what if you can once, at maximal piety, ponderify a randart item? (This goes against the rule that randarts cannot ever be changed, but I say a god can do it, and I have a plan for Okawaru to tinker with randarts, too.)
vintermann: we should talk about the stat boosts, yes. I like the resistances, though. They give an immediate appeal to the god, and I also like the idea that being contemplative makes you more safe from the perils of daily life.
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 332

Joined: Friday, 4th February 2011, 18:04

Location: The South, US

Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 11:59

Re: Chei stat boost

OT:Okie might tinker with randarts? YES! Whee! Goodbye random rain of mostly useless gifts!
Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
TSE

Blades Runner

Posts: 554

Joined: Tuesday, 25th January 2011, 14:24

Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 13:42

Re: Chei stat boost

IMO (not that I've played Chei much), the "Ponderfy" ability is the *most* appealing aspect. Something about the ability to "create" artifacts is immensely satisfying.

I'd love to see that spread around a little, though (although not *too* much - it should still be rare), as I don't see that generally fitting the Chei theme otherwise.
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 332

Joined: Friday, 4th February 2011, 18:04

Location: The South, US

Post Monday, 28th March 2011, 14:38

Re: Chei stat boost

New Thought: Chei will offer to further ponderify armour (Ponderous++) when armour slots are full, ponderousness is less than max, piety = X, and # turns ponderous = Y. Y should be a very long time, like L:1 - V:8 or so, but higher ponderousness should reduce the turn count. For example, using arbitrary numbers, if I spend 1000 turns with 1 Ponderous item, 1000 turns with 2, and 1000 thousand turns with 3, then I would have Pondered 6000 turns (1000 + 2*1000 +3*1000)

This would necessarily only affect armour-restricted races, since they could have full armour slots without being wholly pondered, but it would keep them from getting +15 stats much sooner than anyone else.

It would also mean turning 'Ponderous' into a gradient (Pnd+, Pnd++, perhaps Pnd+++), which I think would be more fun on artifacts.
Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
TSE

For this message the author dolphin has received thanks: 5
evktalo, mrbobbyg, ryak, smock, Stormfox

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Monday, 31st January 2011, 03:23

Post Thursday, 31st March 2011, 02:39

Re: Chei stat boost

Downside - It removes some of the choice between having to wear ponderous items and good randarts. The optimal strategy would be to concentrate your ponderousness on as few items as possible (you could wear singly ponderized items in the meantime while waiting out the delay). By the endgame, nearly every character would have all of their ponderousness concentrated into two items. This is actually a pretty significant buff to chei since a character would now have a great deal of choice of randart armor, whereas before to get the full benefit, you had to forsake all randart armor.

Another consequence is that it would be far easier to switch from being slowed to being normal speed - you'd only have to remove two items (potentially easy to remove items like hat and cloak) to return to normal speed. You could make the removing of a ponderous item take more time than normal, but it'd have to be clearly documented.
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 332

Joined: Friday, 4th February 2011, 18:04

Location: The South, US

Post Thursday, 31st March 2011, 03:20

Re: Chei stat boost

You're right, there was another condition that I didn't state (but I was thinking it, not that that counts for much): your armour slots must be completely pondered. Those with 5 slots and 4 Pondies shouldn't get a boost. Those with only 3 slots and 3 Pondies should.
Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
TSE

Snake Sneak

Posts: 111

Joined: Tuesday, 18th January 2011, 17:51

Post Thursday, 31st March 2011, 03:32

Re: Chei stat boost

@Cybermg: I think the idea is to only extra ponderize items on armour-restricted races who are already ponderized as much as they normally can be. There would have to be steps taken so that a demonspawn with horns doesn't double ponderize his gloves, put on a new pair of gloves, double ponderize his boots, and then put the double ponderized gloves back on and then put on his randart armour or cloak, but I think that's an issue that can be easily taken care of a number of ways--making it a temporary ponderize brand, for example, and if you double ponderize another item the first item loses it's double ponderous status (no matter where it is in the dungeon).

For this message the author seth has received thanks: 2
Cybermg, dolphin

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 40

Joined: Tuesday, 29th March 2011, 06:16

Post Thursday, 31st March 2011, 05:25

Re: Chei stat boost

Maybe only offer the bonuses if all used slots have Ponderous gear: a character with only a robe on and sufficient piety would get the offer to add another degree of slowness and receive the ++ bonus, but adding a non-ponderous cloak (or a cloak and boots) means only getting the bonus for a single slot. Some games I struggle to find anything other than robes but have plenty of piety, so this would be nice. It would also have the downside that if I make a nice robe double ponderous and then finally find a cloak, I either have to make the cloak ponderous and maybe be slower than I can handle or get less of a bonus.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Monday, 31st January 2011, 03:23

Post Thursday, 31st March 2011, 06:09

Re: Chei stat boost

whoops, I keep accidentally clicking "Thanks" instead of quote. Not that I don't think yours is a good post though...

seth wrote:There would have to be steps taken so that a demonspawn with horns doesn't double ponderize his gloves, put on a new pair of gloves, double ponderize his boots, and then put the double ponderized gloves back on and then put on his randart armour or cloak, but I think that's an issue that can be easily taken care of a number of ways--making it a temporary ponderize brand, for example, and if you double ponderize another item the first item loses it's double ponderous status (no matter where it is in the dungeon).


The easiest way to fix this would probably just be to restrict extra pondering to be equal to the number of your unavailable slots. I'm not sure there's a great thematic explanation for that though...

For this message the author Cybermg has received thanks:
dolphin

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.