Opinions on Djinni?

[Tiktacy]

Well, I made a thread for lava orcs so I figured that maybe I should do the same for djinnis. Personally, I think the essence mechanic is awesome, but it would be a lot cooler if what made them unique was ONLY immunity to fire and essence. I mean, seriously, mummies are supposed to be the guys with no hunger clock, why must we make mummies less interesting?

Here is what I think would improve djinnis:

-Bring back food clock, as said in the other thread, even sentient flames must require fuel.
-Take away negative energy resistance. It doesn't make any more sense than making them immune to physical damage.
-Remove contamination and just let food take over. They don't need to be more different.
-Make some sort of compensation for the nerfs, maybe something along the lines of increasing max essence points.

I am expecting a lot of people to disagree with me on a lot of the things I am saying, so I just want to point out that this is merely my current standings and I am completely open for new ideas and opinions as long as you do it in a constructive way. After all, isn't that what GDD is all about?

[nicolae]

I assume Djinn have rN for the same reason Gargoyles do -- they're not really "alive".

[reaver]

The reason they have rN+++ is that losing half your essence to Torment would be incredibly stupid. rN+++ reduces the damage to 35%.

Also, I'm pretty sure the big interesting thing about mummies is no potions, and no food clock is just a convenience for players who've learned to hate that.

Edit: Corrected typo

[Sar]

rN+++ reduces torment damage to 35% (5% per a pip of rN).

[Tiktacy]

The reason they have rN+++ is that losing half your essence to Torment would be incredibly stupid. rN+++ reduces the damage to 25%.

Also, I'm pretty sure the big interesting thing about mummies is no potions, and no food clock is just a convenience for players who've learned to hate that.

Alright, fair enough. I still think having no hunger clock is kind of silly, since contamination feels like its encouraging more resting, and no hunger clock means as much resting as you want...

[Tiktacy]

rN+++ reduces torment damage to 35% (5% per a pip of rN).

This doesn't really matter that much considering the mutation screen says they are immune to torment though.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Contam as spell-hunger is bad because it makes me press 5 even more than I already do. It's also redundant because it only functions as a limit during combat. Djinn already spend health to cast magic, which is a vastly more important and more immediate concern during combat.

full (hell)fire immunity is so completely insane I don't even know where to begin

Hover could maybe, maaaaaybe, work if autoexplore didn't cross water. As it is, pressing 'o' on a level with water is basically equivalent to suicide.

Also the countless random special casings are utterly ridiculous and make Djinn mind-boggling for experienced players and blatantly misleading for new players.

[duvessa]

I can see putting this joke of a race in trunk for a short while just for the heck of it, but it doesn't need to stay any longer. The only actual unique feature that they have is fire immunity, which hardly seems interesting enough to deserve its own species, and it's certainly no reason to pile on the rest of their meaningless gimmicks. Then again apparently these days "extra AC and rN" deserves its own species so whatever.

[Sar]

Hover does not exist anymore, they just fly.

[Tiktacy]

I can see putting this joke of a race in trunk for a short while just for the heck of it, but it doesn't need to stay any longer. The only actual unique feature that they have is fire immunity, which hardly seems interesting enough to deserve its own species, and it's certainly no reason to pile on the rest of their meaningless gimmicks. Then again apparently these days "extra AC and rN" deserves its own species so whatever.

Lol well that was harsh.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Hover does not exist anymore, they just fly.

Sorry, it's been a while since I played one. Pressing 5 so so so much cripples my will to even give them a chance.

[Hirsch I]

I hate Djiini.

you should really change your name to Donald, Duvessa.
anyway, I really like the Essence stuff, and the fire immunity is pretty interesting. it is weird tough that your scrolls still burn. if they can take being handled by a being that is made of fire, they can take a little fire damage. if not, then obviously the djiini mastered the secrets of scroll conservation.

[brendan]

The concept of pooled magic and health is an interesting one. We might be able to balance Djinni if we turned them into humans with EP without piling on additional racial features. I strongly believe that simplicity will make it easier to balance.

[Tiktacy]

The concept of pooled magic and health is an interesting one. We might be able to balance Djinni if we turned them into humans with EP without piling on additional racial features. I strongly believe that simplicity will make it easier to balance.

Please do this, i will love you.

[Azrael]

I can see putting this joke of a race in trunk for a short while just for the heck of it, but it doesn't need to stay any longer. The only actual unique feature that they have is fire immunity, which hardly seems interesting enough to deserve its own species, and it's certainly no reason to pile on the rest of their meaningless gimmicks. Then again apparently these days "extra AC and rN" deserves its own species so whatever.

"...only actual unique feature that they have is fire immunity..."
"only unique feature"
Of course. I'm sure that Essence, the core idea of the race and one of the more interesting ideas in the new races, has nothing to do with innovation or being "unique".

Why are you always so angry?

Anyway, I quite like Djinn as they are. They add a whole new dimension to playing casters and caster-hybrids: can I justify my casting with an appropriate cost/benefit analysis of the results of this spell, which will include an unresistable reduction in health? It adds a whole new tactical level to the game, which I appreciate; spell-hunger is more of a strategic issue anyway, and tactical beats out strategic for Crawl. EP does need to be revamped-- I've suggested 2(spell level) - 1=EP reduction before-- but the race is, thematically appropriate, fills a Crawl niche, and is fun to boot.

[duvessa]

Of course. I'm sure that Essence, the core idea of the race and one of the more interesting ideas in the new races, has nothing to do with innovation or being "unique".

Unless you want to use a crystal ball of energy or find Wucad Mu, it does very little other than make you press 5 more often (and for a lot of characters it doesn't even do that).

[Klown]

Why are you always so angry?

Somebody killed Dowan.

[Azrael]

Of course. I'm sure that Essence, the core idea of the race and one of the more interesting ideas in the new races, has nothing to do with innovation or being "unique".

Unless you want to use a crystal ball of energy or find Wucad Mu, it does very little other than make you press 5 more often (and for a lot of characters it doesn't even do that).

Try playing a Djinn Wizard and tell me again they're the same after you get off of D:1.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

Djinn shouldn't be able to wear rings of Ice

[asdu]

They add a whole new dimension to playing casters and caster-hybrids: can I justify my casting with an appropriate cost/benefit analysis of the results of this spell, which will include an unresistable reduction in health?

The problem is that using your HP as fuel for spells is strictly worse than using MP. If Djinn (or at least, Djinn that actually use spells) are supposed to provide an extreme challenge, then fine. If on the other hand they're meant to be a race that's about on par with others, but with unique perks of their own, then they need to have some very good incentive to cast spells, something like a very large boost in spellpower (and I mean VERY large) or similar. As it stands, a Minotaur is infinitely more viable as a caster than a Djinni is.

[Tiktacy]

They add a whole new dimension to playing casters and caster-hybrids: can I justify my casting with an appropriate cost/benefit analysis of the results of this spell, which will include an unresistable reduction in health?

The problem is that using your HP as fuel for spells is strictly worse than using MP. If Djinn (or at least, Djinn that actually use spells) are supposed to provide an extreme challenge, then fine. If on the other hand they're meant to be a race that's about on par with others, but with unique perks of their own, then they need to have some very good incentive to cast spells, something like a very large boost in spellpower (and I mean VERY large) or similar. As it stands, a Minotaur is infinitely more viable as a caster than a Djinni is.

How about we change them to "Psiborns" and give them essence points + Wild magic 3?

[ontoclasm]

The problem is that using your HP as fuel for spells is strictly worse than using MP.

This isn't true. It might be worse overall, but it's certainly not strictly worse: you can cast for far, far longer with a Djinni than with anything else. My current DjFE has 127 EP; that means that she can cast 12 fireballs in a row, and probably even more due to regeneration (natural, and from the spell). And that's before Makhleb kicks in. A human with the same XL and skills would have 28 MP, and thus be out after only 5 fireballs.

I'm not saying 13 fireballs in a row would be a good idea, or that the above means EP should stay, but there's definitely an upside to it, both from the player and the design perspective: the player gets the option to cast lots of spells if necessary, but if he wants to use this option, he has to injure himself and thus create more dangerous situations.

[Sar]

As it stands, a Minotaur is infinitely more viable as a caster than a Djinni is.

Go Makhleb.

Edit: I haven't tried Dj after "Contam = antiwizardry" change. Things might be different now.

[asdu]

Alright, I misused to the word "strictly", but the advantage of having a bigger pool to cast spells is only theoretical, I think. If you're in a position to lose most of your HP to cast a few more spells, without that being a guaranteed suicide, then you were never in danger to begin with and you didn't NEED to cast that many spells.
On another note, can Djinn use sublimation of blood on chunks to heal? Because (with crystal balls and Wucad Mu not working) that's the only upside I can see in the essence mechanic, and even then, I think you're better off ignoring spells (or spells that require multiple uses in a fight, i.e. conjurations and summonings) altogether and using that purely as a source of healing.

[Sar]

Have you actually tried playing a Dj spellcaster? Because I did, and I won, and it was a very easy win (again, that was before recent Contam changes, but the argument is that shared MP/HP make casting conjurations impossible, and that just isn't true in my experience).

[johlstei]

I probably post this too much but uhh, please keep the no food thing. It makes them so much less fiddly to play than other races, it is quite nice. If you want them to stop overlapping with mummies, add the no food thing to every other race(and maybe delete mummies? Are their other racials interesting without the food thing being special?). Pretty much everything that has a food cost is balanced in some other way, maybe we can address the couple edge cases and then try it? (Pacification and Xom gifts come to mind as too good without food. Maybe spriggans too but eh, I'm okay with that one.)

[Sandman25]

Casting Dj has problems with killing dangerous uniques but other than that it is easy, fun and unique. I like the species, I am not even sure why it wasn't included in 0.13, it seems not more broken than Gr.

[Lasty]

I'm currently playing my first Dj, a DjAE. So far it's been pretty entertaining, though I'm regretting taking Makhleb over Sif Muna. The tension between using HP for spells and using it for staying alive is interesting, though I'm definitely expecting that it will get me killed soon. Losing 40 hp out of 100 to cast Lightning Bolt 4 times is pretty rough. Regeneration is a much weirder spell, but very useful.

The contamination mechanic seems pretty pointless, though. I've been playing as though it doesn't exist, and only once did I get to yellow glow. Even then, it didn't do anything. If I cared, I could rest it off after each fight, but that seems tedious and pointless. It seems like something better is needed.

[Sandman25]

The contamination mechanic seems pretty pointless, though. I've been playing as though it doesn't exist, and only once did I get to yellow glow. Even then, it didn't do anything. If I cared, I could rest it off after each fight, but that seems tedious and pointless. It seems like something better is needed.

My Dj had multiple temporary mutations several times, I spammed Bolt of Fire with wizardry from XL 13 so you can assume my Int and Spellcasting was not high enough. I had multiple miscasts because of the glow also.

[1010011010]

I assumed contam was to stop channel/healing spam.

Does Vehumet or Makhleb provide more EP on kills?

[KittenInMyCerealz]

Dj is just a mummy with insanely better aptitudes, and slightly worse earlygame if you play a caster. IMHO way more broken than gargoyles.