Rune lock

[MrPlanck]

"A golden dragon (shapeshifter) (D:11)"

But it's not so bad in dungeon as you can usually just go the other way. Sigmund is OoD often but not hard to avoid.

Only one door and two escape hatches, and you have to waltz past the gold dragon and stone giant to get to them. Or dig. But I can't hold wands and haven't found the spell.

[jaega1]

For what it matters, I think people are getting overly worked up about this decision. I am a mediocre player and I tried a runelock game. I am playing a DeFe and realize that I have never gotten a magic character even to the end of the Lair before this game.

In this game, I only had one scary situation in getting the gossamer rune. Granted I did have sinv and rpois which massively helped. Still I have to reiterate that I am not a very good player.

[dck]

May I question the rationale behind removing the shaft to D: 15?

[Kate]

One-way gates don't work very well, since if you wanted to take it, you would have to drag as much of your stash as possible through the shaft. It also seems fine to leave the lock as a hard lock for a little while and let it be tested in that form, before adding ways to bypass it (as has probably already been mentioned elsewhere, there's a branch in progress that adds a staircase from Elf <-> Vaults that may be tried out).

[galehar]

I think it also defeated the purpose of the rune lock. What is the path of least resistance? The safest way to explore the dungeon and win? (there are obviously possible variations, don't nitpick please. The point is about when are the rune gathered).

Before the lock:
early D, Lair, Lair branches, Orc, mid D, Vaults, Vault branches, late D. 2 Lair runes, Vaults rune. Zot.

After the lock:
early D, Lair, Lair branches, Orc. 1 Lair rune. mid D, Vaults, Vault branches, late D. 1 Lair rune, Vaults rune. Zot.

Lock with shaft bypass:
early D, Lair, Lair branches, Orc, mid D, Vaults, Vault branches, late D. Vaults rune, 2 Lair runes. Zot.

So, we're back to square one. You once again postpone the rune gathering until you're ready for Zot, the only downsides are that you have to pick the silver rune first (or abyssal) and have to bring a reduced stash to D:15.

[dpeg]

Many thanks, galehar, for catching my blunder!

There may be interesting ways to bypass the lock, but shafts are certainly not one of them. And whatever they'll be, the standard approach will be to tackle one Lair rune before D:15, so that's what we should playtest for a bit now.

[1010011010]

Granted I did have sinv and rpois which massively helped.

I'm finding that If I'm lacking various equipment then the branches can be very dangerous, This is happening quite often to my rune lock runs (maybe I'm that unlucky).

[Kalma]

Reports from games without flight and rPois would be more relevant. I think that's the only situation where getting a rune might be too hard or too tedious.

[WalkerBoh]

For what it's worth I'm in the middle of a DDFi speed run that took the D:15 shaft and went straight into Vaults at xl15. It was easily one of the most fun, challenging crawl experiences I've had, and I would normally have never tried it if not for the rune lock (I got the silver rune successfully btw). I understand the issues with the shaft concept, but in general I just wanted to say that bypass routes can be very interesting and I think a hard lock would not be as fun. I'm still in favor of a bypass route through Elf:3.

Edit: my char had no rPois, and decent MR but no dig/disint. So I felt lair branches/elf were too high risk/too low reward compared to vaults.

[and into]

For what it's worth I'm in the middle of a DDFi speed run that took the D:15 shaft and went straight into Vaults at xl15. It was easily one of the most fun, challenging crawl experiences I've had, and I would normally have never tried it if not for the rune lock (I got the silver rune successfully btw). I understand the issues with the shaft concept, but in general I just wanted to say that bypass routes can be very interesting and I think a hard lock would not be as fun. I'm still in favor of a bypass route through Elf:3.

Edit: my char had no rPois, and decent MR but no dig/disint. So I felt lair branches/elf were too high risk/too low reward compared to vaults.

As far as more bypass routes, an idea I had was to make an early (intentional) trip to the abyss an option:

1.) a chance for a normal gate to the abyss (so abyssal rune is an option) on D13 or D14

or

2.) a chance for a special, new type of gate to the abyss that is special-cased so that, if you use it to enter abyss and then survive to find a gate out, you enter D15 and bypass the runelock entierly. So if you can withstand even just Abyss:1 for a good length of time, you can bypass the lock, explore rest of the Dungeon, and then try for the silver rune or the abyssal rune (from a later, standard Abyss gateway)


Actually: Perhaps a *standard* gateway to Abyss should be guaranteed on D14 anyway?

Right now you can "access" the abyss in a grindy and spoilery way via Elf, by keeping one of the weaker banishment-casting elves in LOS without any MR gear on. You could always do this, of course, there just wasn't much point. Now, with runelock, there conceivably could be, so we should make this sort of grindy, spoilerish workaround unnecessary. I'd like to keep banishment as a legitimate threat (unintended trip to abyss), so a guaranteed D14 abyss gateway seems like a good thing: If you want to take a shot at the abyssal rune, go for it.

Now, if abyssal bypass is *also* thought to be a good idea, you can either have all the guaranteed D14 abyss gateways give the bypass option, or have a chance for your guaranteed gateway to be the special kind that gets you into D15 without having to deal with any rune vaults (either in abyss or lair branches). I could in particular see fast species, and especially fast but low-HP, armour-restricted species (such as felid) opting for "mad sprint through abyss:1 to bypass" rather than deal with branch ends or abyss:3, which is scarier than abyss:1 and may generate nasty, lich-filled rune vaults.

So I'd recommend: Guaranteed D14 abyssal gateway that allows bypass in all cases, or guaranteed D14 abyssal gateway with a decent chance (one-in-three?) at it being a special "bypass" gateway.

[XuaXua]

Dare I suggest it, the branches don't seem so bad; move the rune lock to D12.

[Datul]

Just ran my first rune lock game. D1-10 L1-8 O1-4 D11-14 Spider 1-2/splat

Ran into multiple named on Spider2; Arachne, Nessos and Azrael, bad config, bad play, got splatted. I've ascended 9 toons online, and don't think I've ever done a rune pre-d:15. The ability to get that extra xp and gear would have helped. Maybe my xl15 DECj could have survived all of Spider, but I would have certainly been more comfortable at xl17-19

I'll try again, I always do...

[dpeg]

Datul: what combination? Bad luck drop? rPois present or not? Did O:4 yield anything useful, i.e. was it a gain or loss of resources? What was the other S branch?

[XuaXua]

What was the other S branch?

This.

Of course, I bet it was Shoals.

[nicolae]

The rune lock is making changes happen far and wide:

  Code:

Transform the lower half of D into a new branch: the Depths.

D is now 16 levels (the unsealed part was 14 levels previously), and the
Depths are six levels.  Vaults is enterable from Depths:2-5; Abyss, Hell,
and Pan portals are available for the entire length of the branch.

I like this -- it keeps the mythical 27 levels but in a different way, there's now 16 + 6 + 5 = 27 levels of dungeon between the entrance and the Orb.

[Datul]

Datul: what combination? Bad luck drop? rPois present or not? Did O:4 yield anything useful, i.e. was it a gain or loss of resources? What was the other S branch?

I had decent gear, and ignite poison/poison cloud which I figure would be enough raw dmg to make it through Spider. Here's my Morgue file.

And Shoals was my other branch, with Fireball and Battlesphere the first few levels would have been an option.

[Jeremiah]

IMO you overtrained Spellcasting and would have had a better chance of survival with more dodging, stealth or fighting instead.

[Zammy]

Just ran my first rune lock game. D1-10 L1-8 O1-4 D11-14 Spider 1-2/splat

Ran into multiple named on Spider2; Arachne, Nessos and Azrael, bad config, bad play, got splatted. I've ascended 9 toons online, and don't think I've ever done a rune pre-d:15. The ability to get that extra xp and gear would have helped. Maybe my xl15 DECj could have survived all of Spider, but I would have certainly been more comfortable at xl17-19

I'll try again, I always do...

For my first rune lock game I played Formalid Berserker.
I had spider and shoals.
And of course no rPois anywhere to be found. I decided to wrestle with sea snakes and poison trident wielding merfolk rather than spiders and emperor scorpions.

Normally I would have just skipped the branches until rPois would have popped up but now didn't have that option.
It was arduous running back and forth and death was close more than once, but still it was manageable.

Now that I've tested the rune lock I feel that lucky drops are much more valuable in the early game than they were before.
Also, all the rune lock changed in my game was that I retrieved one rune earlier than I would normally have. I didn't even enter the other branch until rather late in game (that was finally founding first rPois item in the vault 4).

Overall I now feel that runelock adds some tension and danger in the early-mid game but does little more.
All other options still remain in the same difficulty. The spider branch was just a walk in the park since I leveled up so much searhing rPois.
So basically it's checking for branches as early as possible and then training skills to tackle one of them depending what items you have.

I do like the idea that runes have some meaning in the game besides just being key to zot and giving points.

[dpeg]

Now that I've tested the rune lock I feel that lucky drops are much more valuable in the early game than they were before.

That could be seen as positive or negative, but if it means that we have to adapt better than before, then I am fine with this.

Also, all the rune lock changed in my game was that I retrieved one rune earlier than I would normally have. I didn't even enter the other branch until rather late in game (that was finally founding first rPois item in the vault 4).
Overall I now feel that runelock adds some tension and danger in the early-mid game but does little more.

Yes. By design, it cannot do more. Once you have that one rune, you're fully entitled to put off the other one as long as you want.

Thanks for sharing.

[Zammy]

Now that I've tested the rune lock I feel that lucky drops are much more valuable in the early game than they were before.

That could be seen as positive or negative, but if it means that we have to adapt better than before, then I am fine with this.

Also, all the rune lock changed in my game was that I retrieved one rune earlier than I would normally have. I didn't even enter the other branch until rather late in game (that was finally founding first rPois item in the vault 4).
Overall I now feel that runelock adds some tension and danger in the early-mid game but does little more.

Yes. By design, it cannot do more. Once you have that one rune, you're fully entitled to put off the other one as long as you want.

Thanks for sharing.

You are right that luck factor on early drops adds a need to adapt on what you find. Which is only a good thing since now the games might get rather different even with same species/backround combos.

And I do feel that the rune lock has potential to do more than just cut the one easy option of skipping the branches.
Of course that would require some more than just slapping the lock there, but I'll bet you aren't just slapping the lock there and leave rest as it is anyway

[Kalma]

Maybe orc:4 could have a source of fllight or rPois guaranteed.

[MrPlanck]

For what it's worth, I've been playing quite a few games, and I like the rune lock. I don't see any problems with the implementation. It is more challenging, but not at all impossible.

[XuaXua]

I don't know if it has been fixed, but most the "roar of battle" portals should only appear in Orc 1-3 or D12-D14 at this point; it's no challenge if it appears on 15, especially if it's any of the axe-throwing ones.

[MrPlanck]

Was rune lock removed from trunk? I just got to 15 without needing a rune.

[rchandra]

press ctrl-O, trunk has some new surprises (and still a rune lock).

[MrPlanck]

press ctrl-O, trunk has some new surprises (and still a rune lock).

Thank you, much appreciated. I should have checked the commits but find it time consuming (i.e., I'm too lazy) to keep up.

[Sar]

My current character is a MuFE on CLAN (trunk). I have no runes and I'm on D:18 currently. Dungeon overview tells me that Depths exist somewhere at D:16, but I didn't find it. This is weird. I assume it's gonna be fixed soon.

[MoogleDan]

Apart from being a little shorter, what's the difference between Du:17-27 and De:1-6? Still got Hell/Pan/Abyss portals?

[ontoclasm]

Yes, it still has the portals. The monster set is somewhat different, too (mainly in the sense of being tougher; Depths is more like D:22-27 than D:17).

Also the tiles are slightly different

[thevogonpoet]

Holy crap, five less levels of mid-late D, and tougher monsters in the Depths? Damn, it feels like I am never going to win ever again. I love this game. Devs, you are awesome.

[dpeg]

I don't know if it has been fixed, but most the "roar of battle" portals should only appear in Orc 1-3 or D12-D14 at this point; it's no challenge if it appears on 15, especially if it's any of the axe-throwing ones.

Good point, done. New Bailey range is D:7-14, Orc:1-3. I didn't tweak the starting because that's a different kind of decision.

[Lasty]

I'm reasonably happy with the rune lock. It's definitely forced me to work a little harder and take some more interesting risks, but the risks have been pretty manageable. For example, see these two CIP posts, both for relatively weak backgrounds who do fine in Spider, albeit both with rPois.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9781
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9847

[starless]

Rune lock is fine by me.
I played a couple of characters, all Demigod Fighters, no spells, and had no problems. It is challenging, but so is the game itself.

The first char got one rune before L15, the other got two runes.

[thevogonpoet]

The Depths are brutal. Or at least, the first level is. I am so not inclined to check out U2. I think I will go back to Swamp, do some more dancing around Mara, and clear the bottom level for some more XP. Then maybe I will try to ninja my way to Vaults for a breather. Wow.

[minstrel]

The Depths are brutal. Or at least, the first level is. I am so not inclined to check out U2. I think I will go back to Swamp, do some more dancing around Mara, and clear the bottom level for some more XP. Then maybe I will try to ninja my way to Vaults for a breather. Wow.

+1 this. Only played two games post-runelock, so it might just have been luck of the draw, but so far my impression has been that the rune lock itself (IE having to hit one of the S* branches) isn't bad at all. However, going from D:16 to Depths is brutal. One minute you're fighting Orc packs and the next it's Fire Giants, Dragons, Iron Trolls and those little square vaults full of hellfire and brimstone.

Like thevogonpoet, I'm thinking I'll head back to the other Lair sub-branch in hopes of getting some more XP/loot.

Between the XP-debuff and the difficulty ramp-up from D to U, I bet there's going to be a higher mortality on U:1 moreso than the Lair sub-branches. My gut feel right now is that a little more XP in the early game might be called for. The sudden nastiness when you hit Depths is fun (believe me it is - grinding through D:16 to D:27 in the old Dungeon was sleep-inducing sometimes), but feels a little excessive at the character level you'll hit it at.

My other gut feel, (I'm a cow, two guts you know), is that it might actually work out well and make clearing Orc/Elf/Lair subs more attractive at a level when there's still some danger to it, assuming they give enough xp/loot to actually increase Depths survival (which I'm about to find out). I wonder if it might leave some characters in a lousy position though - sometimes Elf is just too deadly for certain builds or certain characters just due to luck, same with certain Lair subs; those pcs would be left without much viable choice after getting the first rune.

Again, just perspective from a couple games. The first one I died not to U:1 but to an unlucky chaos-effect paralysis in a Wizlab, and this one I'm still alive but beating a retreat from U:1 to Swamp and/or Elf. I'll see how trying to buff up in the early dungeon goes.

[ketsa]

The depths are so brutal I wonder why we still need a runelock ?

I'm currently playing a DDFi and had 2 runes before entering the Depths (Swamp and Spider)
Upon entering depths, the first "room" I encountered on was full of Sand Giants, Frost Giants, Titans, Fire drakes, Hell Knights...
I backed and went to Elf, wich was easily cleaned.

There's absolutely no need of a runelock with the current situation.
The challenge today would be to attempt Depths without running everything coming before it.

[Wahaha]

There's absolutely no need of a runelock with the current situation.

This is close to true but not quite. If there was no rune lock, players could do levels 1-4 of both Lair branches, and possibly part of level 5, and skip the rune vault. One of the reasons for the rune lock is to force players to do the rune vault when it's challenging. On the other hand, some (not all) rune vaults are easier than the Depths.

[galehar]

Depths has just been introduced the balance isn't final. When things settle down, we'll decide if the rune lock needs to stay. And Wahaha has a point. There's a difference between clearing a Lair branch for XP and grabbing the rune.

[crate]

isn't the point of runelock to make rune #1 do something....????

this is still the only explanation for the implementation of runelock in the first place that makes any sense to me

(and, obviously, late D -> depths does absolutely nothing with respect to making rune #1 do something)

[johlstei]

isn't the point of runelock to make rune #1 do something....????

this is still the only explanation for the implementation of runelock in the first place that makes any sense to me

(and, obviously, late D -> depths does absolutely nothing with respect to making rune #1 do something)

The argument that makes sense to me is that it's to make the rune branch endings(which are quite cool and unique floors) do something other than "be cleared quickly by characters who have cleared the whole dungeon and are overlevelled for them". They provide a cool "boss fight" for the first half of the game, I like it. It is definitely frustrating when you don't get any rPois though, not sure what to do there.

[duvessa]

There's absolutely no need of a runelock with the current situation.

This is close to true but not quite. If there was no rune lock, players could do levels 1-4 of both Lair branches, and possibly part of level 5, and skip the rune vault. One of the reasons for the rune lock is to force players to do the rune vault when it's challenging. On the other hand, some (not all) rune vaults are easier than the Depths.

all snake/swamp/spider/shoals rune vaults i can think of are easier than depths

[Wahaha]

You're right, I take that back. Tengu reavers are ridiculous. The only vault that I would skip is the miasma swamp vault. This means that with the current difficulty of Depths, the rune lock can be removed. However it's very likely that Depths will be changed in some way.

[duvessa]

to be honest I like depths how it is now except for the bad monsters (which are bad monsters and not a problem with the branch) and certainly don't think it should be any easier, as currently it does a very good job of making people do the rune vaults earlier (and I like it much better without the rune lock because it still allows branchless games etc)
though like dck said vaults will have to change

p.s. cows only have one stomach, it has four compartments though

[tompliss]

Keeping the rune-lock even with the difficulty of the Depths is a good thing : It forces new players to go and find the rune before going straight to the Depths just after the dungeon and getting killed in one shot too easily

[duvessa]

except that logic suggests we should also lock them out of d:14 and orc until they reach lair:8, lock them out of hell/pan/elf/tomb entirely, etc...

[reaver]

Keeping the rune-lock even with the difficulty of the Depths is a good thing : It forces new players to go and find the rune before going straight to the Depths just after the dungeon and getting killed in one shot too easily

Learning not to jump into branches as soon as you see them is just part of the game, unless you're suggesting we move Elf somewhere else. I don't think we need more than maybe a Hint on Hint's mode to get new players to realize that you can't take branch order for granted.

[minstrel]

p.s. cows only have one stomach, it has four compartments though

I was referring to Dungeon Cows. How could they digest ettins without two stomachs?

Following up on my earlier post, I made it through U:2 to Vaults, which were a refreshing break. Taking out everything but Slime in the early dungeon helped, but I can't see every character being capable of that. And Depths still felt like being thrown from the kiddie ski slope on the hill at the local park onto the north face of Everest, only this time I got a proper parka instead of grandma's knit sweater.

[tompliss]

except that logic suggests...

unless you're suggesting...

Unlike some posters, I'm not suggesting the whole game should change in every post.
I'm just saying I like how the rune-Lock is now, and that there is no reason to change it.

[reaver]

I'm just saying I like how the rune-Lock is now, and that there is no reason to change it.

Yes, but the reason you gave for supporting that, if true, would indicate the need for other changes in the game that obviously don't make sense. We're making the point the reason you gave in support of the rune lock is poor. There could easily be good reasons to keep the rune lock even if players would mostly follow the conduct without it, but the fact "It forces new players to go and find the rune before going straight to the Depths just after the dungeon and getting killed in one shot too easily" isn't one of them.

[dpeg]

There's no decision whatsoever about the fate of the rune lock yet, but I'll do reaver the favour and mention some better reasons

Even if Depths is so hard that players will deliberately postpone them, the rune lock
1. makes sure that players have to stand and get a rune (rather than just collecting xp on S:5 without going for the rune),
2. introduces runes as Crawl keys to players long before they do Zot (if ever), and
3. sets a clear mid-game goal (I think that's a good thing).