Rune lock

[tompliss]

moreover, the rune-lock introduce soem sort of "mid-boss", where you get to choose the boss you fight (those being the rune vaults)...

[reaver]

1. makes sure that players have to stand and get a rune (rather than just collecting xp on S:5 without going for the rune)

Why not just make the runes worth XP, like the Quest XP system in D&D? If most of the branch end's XP was concentrated at the rune it'd be worth getting even if you had to ninja it. There would need to be some more tinkering with XP totals to make it work but it clearly incentivizes getting runes.

I don't have any response to your other points except that I don't think they add enough to offset the costs of having the rune lock in the game.

[Klown]

Why not just make the runes worth XP, like the Quest XP system in D&D?

How about time-based rune rewards?

Get a rune(s) in a certain amount of time = get potions of experience, scrolls of acquirement, gold, etc.
The longer you take, the further down the ladder you get, meaning less rewards, and eventually no rewards except the rune itself.

(allows super freedom but gives rewards for taking on a rune or so earlier)

[rchandra]

finished a runelock game, it was fairly difficult but mostly because of chei. I had no MR items at all the entire game except for a late Elemental Staff which was often not a practical choice. I had no rP so did Shoals first. Depths was very brutal but fortunately Vaults was on U:2 (as early as possible at the time). I used every ?blink and I think every !hw and !might in the dungeon, though I did have a /hw for extras. It was great fun and now that tengu reavers are supposed to be less common and Vaults is U:1-3 I look forward to the next one.

[johlstei]

So I just won for the first time! http://pastebin.com/ziqbx9V5

The reason I'm posting about it here is that I'm pretty sure I only won because of the rune lock/new game structure. Before it was introduced I had never gotten a rune at all, and then as soon as it was there and I got a character through lair, I was able to get the shoals rune, and while he died, I quickly got others there and doing the same thing. Before, after clearing orc I would go faff about in the dungeon and vaults, while ignoring the lair branches entirely. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I think a combination of the XP from the lair branches/depths and the harder/more consistent difficulty of the depths helped me keep focus and stay humble, whereas before I was likely reckless. The XP seems close to .12 levels again now also, I was ~XL:26.5 when entering zot. (That's with crypts:1-3 and elf:1 done.)

Gargoyles are fun too. I never identified curing that whole game.

[duvessa]

I would like to propose that the rune lock be moved from Depths to Vaults, and the Vaults entrance to between D:13 and D:16. This preserves every reason ever given for the rune lock to exist: due to Depths' difficulty, branch ends will still be done first on most characters ("boss fight," "no postponing branch ends until they're trivial"). Due to the lock still existing, the first rune will still have a purpose. Due to Depths still being the last branch to appear in Dungeon, it will still be clearly communicated that it's harder.
Furthermore, I consider it a huge improvement over the current situation, because it also:
1. puts branches in a more sensible order. Vaults is easier than Depths, yet currently you have to enter it later. This would not be the case after this proposal.
2. allows more flexibility. Branchless is one of the most popular conducts ever, making it impossible without banishment shenanigans is akin to removing Xom and chaos knights.

Once again I think decreasing the difficulty of Depths is a horrible idea and if it were done I would never want to continue playing after reaching it.

[johlstei]

Yeah depths is definitely not too hard. The second half was downright easy after clearing vaults. It started tough, in depths:2 I had evilmike ambush so I shafted to depths:3 and came back. Maybe I'm speaking through gargoyle tinted glasses here but I did not find depths tough aside from the first two floors when I first entered. That was where they were most interesting.

Personally I would prefer if Vaults were made tougher rather than having its entrance placed earlier(though I'd be fine with both as well.)

[MDvedh]

Also, locking Vaults makes a lot more sense because its Vaults, you know.

[minstrel]

Won my first post-runelock game. 10 runes with a CeCK. My impressions so far are much the same as before.

Clearing a Lair branch end isn't a big deal and the Depths are very hard, but much less so if you clear everything before it (both S's, Orc, Elf, Lair to 8). I feel the runelock itself is a success insofar as the stated goal of forcing a branch end clear before it's totally trivial (though not while it's too hard) goes.

If choice in pre-extended dungeon clearing paths is a desirable thing, I think it's probably suffering more so from Depths' difficulty than from the rune lock. Personally, I like as much openness and choice in exploring as possible, though I realize it has to be restricted to some degree to make the game work. I know many others have no problem whatsoever with a fully railroaded path.

Depths is much like 6 levels of D:27 minus the draconians. Difficulty aside, some variety would be really nice. I know it's early days so that's not meant in any sort of mean way, just my honest impressions. It looks like some new floor layouts and vaults were added though, which is really nice to see.

[MDvedh]

Have some feedback now too.

At first, I liked Depths, as they are really challenging even when you cleared everything but elves.
I can see the good scaling of risks/rewards in this branch order.

Also, I think Depths are challenging by themselves and I probably won't change my branch order regardless of Vaults locked or not (unless they are going to be placed in Dungeon instead of Depths)

[galehar]

Also, I think Depths are challenging by themselves and I probably won't change my branch order regardless of Vaults locked or not (unless they are going to be placed in Dungeon instead of Depths)

It's been done already.

[Psiweapon]

Hahah. It's funny because I have experienced BOTH rune locks.

My ctrl+o screen stated that Vaults entrance would be on D:14-15, but turns out it was in U:2.

The new entrance to the Depths, feels EPIC, and the Runelock adds to that feeling.

The entrance to the vaults, feels meh (As with most branch entrances unless the RNG hates you and generates them with an uber sadistic entrance vault), and the Runelock doesn't add much to it. Although it DOES make sense for the vaults to be locked.

[MDvedh]

2galehar: well, it makes a lot more sense now, thanks. I think my D was generated between these two commits.

[ololoev]

In my last games with DECj or CeHu I clear Lair as soon as I find it, be it on D9 or D12. And in most cases Swamp looks pretty doable. And it Is done if I don't do some stupid dwarf trick or become less carefull. In my previous game with DECj I lacked the damaging power for Swamp 3-5, but for that character Orc 1-4 and Elf 1-2 should not be very hard. I just had to go there in hope I get some cool spellbook.
So for me it is quite ok to have a runelock.
But I am the bad player - never was in Zot, my top score is 2 runes + horn.

[Sandman25]

I guess rune lock has been removed, I was able to enter Depths without any runes.

Edit. Oh, I see, Vaults require a rune to enter.

[Klown]

I guess rune lock has been removed, I was able to enter Depths without any runes.

Edit. Oh, I see, Vaults require a rune to enter.

So you can do anything except enter the Vaults?

[MrPlanck]

The transition from Lair branches to Depths is brutal.

[galehar]

The transition from Lair branches to Depths is brutal.

That's why you grab a rune in Lair and go do Vaults instead.

[Sandman25]

So you can do anything except enter the Vaults?

Yes. That's a new trap for new players I think. Crawl is cruel

[tompliss]

So you can do anything except enter the Vaults?

Yes. That's a new trap for new players I think. Crawl is cruel

Well, there still is the stair vault at the end of the dungeon ?
I mean, that's pretty explicit of the bump in the difficulty scale you'll have...

[duvessa]

You can tell that Depths is fairly difficult by spending 5 seconds in it and it's the last branch staircase you find in D; this isn't a situation like Orc where the difficulty is very random and the staircase shows up early. I'm one of the biggest complainers about Crawl's clarity and even I don't think this is an issue.

[Sandman25]

What's the point of locking Vaults if Depths are available?
I entered Depth for the first time and saw no monsters. Fortunately I read the forum so I didn't try to explore it otherwise my Fo (no escapes) could be dead.

[BlackSheep]

The point of every rune lock is to induce you to get a rune.

[Sandman25]

The point of every rune lock is to induce you to get a rune.

I think locking Depths could be better.

[BlackSheep]

What does Depths have that would tempt you to get a rune in order to unlock it?

[Sandman25]

What does Depths have that would tempt you to get a rune in order to unlock it?

I can ask the same question about Vaults. I am fine with rune lock, I just suspect it can be removed some day.

[BlackSheep]

Well, you'll need 3 runes to get into Zot eventually, plus Vaults is easier than Depths and has some nice treasure at the bottom.

[Sandman25]

plus Vaults is easier than Depths

This. Primary reason for rune lock is to make game harder, not to help new players avoid too dangerous branch before they are ready for it. Crawl is cruel. Perhaps I should add it to my signature

[BlackSheep]

The reason for the rune lock is to make players get a rune before they've basically won.

[MrPlanck]

The transition from Lair branches to Depths is brutal.

That's why you grab a rune in Lair and go do Vaults instead.

Good point! I didn't realize the vault entrance had moved. It is on D14 in my current game. I totally missed it because I was expecting it to be in the Depths.

[Sandman25]

Rune lock does not exist for me, I treat Vaults 1 more dangerous than any lair rune level so I get both runes before going into Vaults.

[galehar]

Lighting the galehar SIGNAL to split this Guardian Serpent thread from Rune Lock.

Done.

[acvar]

This is all a bit hypocritical don't you think? How can the devs give the stock response of "crawl is a game about learning how to pick your fights. You need to learn when to run away and come back when you are better prepared." every time somebody complains about Sigmund or some other nasty being too tough, but then turn around and complain when players take that very advice and avoid doing the branch ends untill they are better prepared.

The real problem is not that peope have the option to delay the branch ends. It is not that the branch ends in lair are too tough. The problem is that there is no good reason to do them untill you want to enter Zot. Do people wait to the bitter end to do orc 4, or do they do it as soon as they think they can handle it. Do people put off crypt 5 till just before they enter Zot? How about elf 3? No people do these branch ends as soon as they feel safe and they do them when they still are a bit challenging. Why? Because there are sugnificant rewards for clearing them. There are no such rewards in the lair branches.

This problem could easily be fixed simply by making the runes do something other then just open doors. You could have them give intrinsics, or have them give experience when you pick them up. Or you could just put more treasure in the vaults. Give characters a real reward for doing the vaults and there is no need for a clunky kludge.

[galehar]

orc 4, crypt 5, elf 3?

Those are optional branches. The point of optional branches is that you don't have to do them to win the game.

This problem could easily be fixed simply by making the runes do something other then just open doors.

Opening doors is something. Picking a Lair rune lets you enter Vaults, this is something.

You could have them give intrinsics, or have them give experience when you pick them up. Or you could just put more treasure in the vaults. Give characters a real reward for doing the vaults and there is no need for a clunky kludge.

Yeah, that was the other approach. We did consider and discuss it, you know? But we think the rune lock is better. Runes are already keys, I don't see what's clunky kludge about locking the Vaults entry. Crawl is all about safety, and to entice players into doing a dangerous vault at XL15 when they can just wait to be XL22 to do it, you'd have to put a huge carrot down there.

[archaeo]

Whatever happened to putting in some kind of passage from the Elven Halls to the other side of the rune lock? If Elf is undesired, I think a path through Hall of Blades (with the creation of new Halls portal vaults) found someplace in Depths could be cool. Either way, I like the high-risk-high-reward nature of subverting the rune lock still, and silver-rune-first routes are neat. Why not allow for it in a way that will remain invisible to most characters?

I say that, but I assume the reason something like this hasn't been tried is because changing the architecture of the dungeon like that would require some serious re-coding.

[acvar]

Those are optional branches. The point of optional branches is that you don't have to do them to win the game.

Technically the branches in the lair are optional branches also. You can avoid them though it will make your game much harder.

Opening doors is something. Picking a Lair rune lets you enter Vaults, this is something.

Yes, but it is something that was only relevant when you wanted to enter the realm of zot which is why I said something other then acting as keys so that the thing they did was immediately useful.

Yeah, that was the other approach. We did consider and discuss it, you know? But we think the rune lock is better. Runes are already keys, I don't see what's clunky kludge about locking the Vaults entry. Crawl is all about safety, and to entice players into doing a dangerous vault at XL15 when they can just wait to be XL22 to do it, you'd have to put a huge carrot down there.

I don't know. It is not as if the branch vaults are impossible to do. If they gave something good like picking up a rune applied a potion of experience I think most would risk them far earlier. I already at least attempt them early because I know unless I screw up I can complete them. Admitadly opening the vaults seems far less kludgy then just locking off the second half of the dungeon.

The real problem here though is ancient. It outdates crawl, and even rogue. Turning monsters into pinatas is the real problem. Monsters should be obstacles not pinatas. Due to imbalances in difficulty vs. experience given, and the fact that difficulty rises sharply with numbers the monsters in the branch ends simply are not very good pinatas.

[Zammy]

Yeah, that was the other approach. We did consider and discuss it, you know? But we think the rune lock is better. Runes are already keys, I don't see what's clunky kludge about locking the Vaults entry. Crawl is all about safety, and to entice players into doing a dangerous vault at XL15 when they can just wait to be XL22 to do it, you'd have to put a huge carrot down there.

Yes, always use a sharp pointy stick to guide people instead of carrots. People get so much more enjoyment out of sharp pointy sticks...

But seriously, putting a huge carrots in rune vaults would just make getting the next rune (and the next carrot) even more safe.
I do feel that locking vaults with rune lock is far better than locking the main dungeon floor. And better thematically.

[rebthor]

I have been a very vocal critic against the rune lock. Feel free to search my posts. With that said, I still haven't played a trunk game as I've been kind of busy, but I've done "rune-lock" behavior in my two recent .13 games and it's been more difficult and at the very least a little annoying but it hasn't been impossible like some of the recent posters seem to claim.

Now again, I'll grant I haven't tried the new mechanic in trunk but since trunk seems to address some of my gripes and at least makes thematic sense now, I can't see why people are more upset now.

[johlstei]

Yes, always use a sharp pointy stick to guide people instead of carrots. People get so much more enjoyment out of sharp pointy sticks...

I think you should be careful in using generalizations about all people to talk about crawl players. I suspect that selecting people who play crawl also selects for "getting enjoyment out of sharp pointy sticks".