Ugly Things

[lordhamshire]

As a random note, one that I suspect most will disagree with me on, but I figured it couldn't hurt mentioning; I think the ugly things (and very ugly things) should be a little more difficult to make encounters with their packs a little more interesting. I think a 25%-50% increase to their defense and damage output would be cool... just sayin' *shrug*

[johlstei]

This is a pretty specific change to a part of the game where there are plenty of things that can hurt you. Can you clarify why you think this about these monsters specifically, as opposed to all monsters appearing on those dungeon levels? Ugly things already cause item destruction and corrosion. Would a % change to their hp/damage really change how you approach them?

[lordhamshire]

True, item destruction and corrosion makes you treat them with some extra caution, but they still aren't as threatening as they probably should be IMO. I didn't point out other enemies because I didn't see them as needing a change, or at least I can't think of any at the moment.

[1010011010]

They are faster than normal, making them more of danger to squishy caster types.
Quick, capable of swarming and can change melee brand and resistance mid fight, not bad, maybe they need a damage improvement or make very ugly things constituent more the pack when reaching deeper parts of the dungeon.

[Jeremiah]

Or give them a ranged attack which isn't used that often, but can be fired through other ugly things, and gets more powerful each time it passes through one. So if the one at the back fires down a corridor it can do quite dangerous amounts of damage from passing through all the others.

[duvessa]

imo monsters should attack your HP instead of your desire to play the game, so i dont like ugly things

[Mankeli]

i hate ugly things because they don't attack my hp

[Mankeli]

(For the record I do think that at least white ugly things can actually attack your HP when you first meet them if you don't have the corresponding resistance. That doesn't mean that I like them, though, because I'm not a big fan of monsters that mainly present a threat to your inventory)

[and into]

Out of curiosity, lordhamshire, what character were you playing where ugly things seemed not to present a challenge? On what level of dungeon were you?

I find item destruction frustrating too, but I think that's a more global problem than ugly things. I like the unpredictability and the possibility of different kinds of elemental damage that (in theory) uggies present. It is good that they are slightly faster than average, come in packs, and mutate to have different sorts of elemental damage.

As for cons: Aside from item destruction issue—they shouldn't flee (I think this was already changed though?)

Probably just making them not spawn so late in game would be enough. They tend to start spawning in packs around ~D12, at which point they can be dangerous if you can't get to a corridor in time and/or if you run low of MP while trying to take out a large pack. However, they are still spawning pretty late in the dungeon, by which time they are boring even if a very ugly thing spawns with. What duvessa said about "only attacking inventory" applies *mostly*, I think, to the fact that they spawn later than they should, by which point truly the only threat they present is the chance to corrode armor and destroy consumables. I think narrowing the range at which they spawn would ensure that they present a meaningful threat. As for problems with item destruction, I think that would have to addressed on a wider scale than just doing something with ugly things.

[lordhamshire]

Yeah, you can potentially meet a tough pack if you see them before the lair or something, but that rarely happens.

I would love it if item destruction and corrosion were abandoned... is that on the table for discussion? If there was a race with natural conservation I would choose it, like... every time.

[Siegurt]

Yeah, you can potentially meet a tough pack if you see them before the lair or something, but that rarely happens.

I would love it if item destruction and corrosion were abandoned... is that on the table for discussion? If there was a race with natural conservation I would choose it, like... every time.

There's not a race, but there is a god.. Jiyva gives conservation.

I think it'd be nice if ugly things did less physical but more elemental damage (Currently they do ~10 of each, i think maybe like 2-5 physical and 15-20 elemental would make them "wimpy if you have the right resistance, but if you don't you're in serious trouble" Similarly I'd reduce the very ugly thing's physical and increase their elemental damage as well) Also I'd slightly up the rate at which they change color.

[lordhamshire]

I actually do worship Jiyva whenever I get the chance, (which is like... 1/100 games... early Jiyva altars are redonkulously rare) but not necessarily for the conservation... I just like Jiyva.

[reaver]

I find the strongest aspect of Ugly Things is their flavor, which is unique to Crawl. Therefore I would prefer any changes to strengthing either their elemental shifting or their "magic contamination matters" theme. For example, they could get an elemental weakness depending on their form.

[drywall]

The main reason they're hated is because their spawn rate is very high and they're a time/resource sink that often ends up with you behind where you started after the fight (their xp gains are so low that 1-2 item destructions feels like a net loss)

I find the strongest aspect of Ugly Things is their flavor, which is unique to Crawl. Therefore I would prefer any changes to strengthing either their elemental shifting or their "magic contamination matters" theme. For example, they could get an elemental weakness depending on their form.

If each form had an elemental weakness and switched forms to resist your attacks they'd require a little more creativity to kill than "spam bolt of fire" and players would have some choice of which elemental attack they'll get hit with. This of course would be extremely annoying if multiple packs spawned on each floor, so the spawn rate would have to decrease. Since the only player forms of acid damage are extremely rare, brown ugly things could be cut as a special bonus.