Proposal: Damageable Skin (Gargoyle Nerf)

[and into]

I like that different species in Crawl offer different levels of difficulty, and I think it is fine if gargoyles remain (let's be honest) a species given to some very easy builds, as well as some powergamey ones.

As it stands, though, gargoyles have some problems. You have bad HP growth and fairly slow leveling, and a nasty but only rarely relevant weakness to certain spells, but no other real drawbacks to speak of. Nevertheless you get pretty stellar aptitudes and a suite of extremely powerful intrinsics. I gave GrBe a spin and I found that very soon into the game I was only using good tactics as a matter of principle, and even then I had to constantly remind myself to do so. Having it this easy to get such huge levels of AC (backed up with innate GDR even) very early on meant that you could get surrounded by anything that's not OOD and it would barely register. I'd still retreat to hallways, limit number of enemies on screen, etc., but more often I did this out of habit rather than necessity. My forays into GrEE and the like make me think that the problem is even deeper, and gargoyles even more broken, when it comes to magic backgrounds.

Gargoyles are a great "starter species," as they are very strong, but perhaps so much so that I worry they might actually encourage rather than punish bad tactics.

So here's my proposal, which I think would be thematic and would keep gargoyles very powerful, yet while also obviating these concerns:

Gargoyle's tough stone skin is not impenetrable. As you take hard blows (physical and earth / non-elemental magic damage) in combat, bits of your stone carapace are blown off, reducing your defenses. Your stone skin replenishes itself naturally over time.

So you may start out with +15 AC or whatever, but as you take a few tough blows, that gets knocked momentarily down to +10 AC or even lower.

Optional: If you take sufficient AC damage, you also lose your insulation (rElec) and/or your poison resistance until you regenerate.


So you may start out nearly every fight with a huge advantage, but as you absorb blows you begin to lose it. This seems to be in keeping with the "very tough, but low stamina" theme that gargoyles already have going for them with lower HP, while encouraging better play and providing a small brake on the overpoweredness of gargs.


Optional (flavor/cosmetic): Instead of or in addition to blood splatter, when a gargoyle player takes a nasty hit that lowers AC, a bunch of stones are sprayed around, signifying that chunks of your thick armor-like skin are being knocked loose.

[reaver]

I think we should wait until after the tournament before discussing the balance of Gargoyles.

In addition, I've heard that Garygoles' effectiveness is very easy to overestimate, and that some bad rolls can destroy what looks like a solid Gargoyle character.

[some12fat2move]

A simpler version of your proposal would be to just tie the AC bonus to current hp. So for instance, instead of getting a fixed AC bonus all the time, you just get +1 AC per, say, 5 HP (current hp) in your HP bar (and the mutation wouldn't have to change periodically as you level up, it just gets better as you get a bigger HP bar). This would encourage good tactics because getting hurt a lot and not running away from a bad situation would be discouraged really severely (even more than normal), and would tell players that they're weakened when they do something bad ("Oh man, look at my AC, should not have let that happen").

[Kate]

An even simpler version would just be to reduce their AC (if a change is necessary).

[Amnesiac]

reducing AC is simple indeed, but and_into's proposal is more interesting. I think nerfing them a bit is a good idea, since -20% hp is only relevant for hellfire and everything else is reduced by that AC, torment is halved, too. We only need to make it not encourage tedious game play, like running away and resting too much, so I like some12fat2move's idea of tying AC to HP, so it's restored along with HP and you don't want to have your HP too low anyway, so it's quite logical. But it still could encourage some not so fun gameplay. So after all maybe it's a better(even though not as interesting) idea to just cut their AC, but give some more hp back?

[and into]

I think we should wait until after the tournament before discussing the balance of Gargoyles.

In addition, I've heard that Garygoles' effectiveness is very easy to overestimate, and that some bad rolls can destroy what looks like a solid Gargoyle character.

Well, certainly any changes should wait until after the tournament, but I don't see why we shouldn't discuss it now. (After all, it is only recently that Gargoyles stopped being experimental and became part of standard Crawl game.) Tournament results don't give good indication of what's too strong or whatever, either (if that's what you mean by waiting until after tourney), because the tournament is rather different from regular crawl playing.

I don't think I'm overestimating. A string of bad rolls can destroy any character. Low HP species are particularly susceptible to this, of course, but Gargoyles no more so than other low-HP species. The difference is that Gargoyles' huge innate AC (helped additionally with some innate GDR) compensates, and in fact overcompensates (which is the problem). They are much *less* susceptible to bad roll deaths than EV-centric characters with around the same HP. Many of the lower-HP, EV-tank species are already very strong, yet Gargoyles are even more so because you get tons of free no-spellcasting-penalty AC and a bit of GDR (not as big a deal as the huge AC bonus, but still helpful), which is more consistent damage mitigation than bonus EV other species get.

An even simpler version would just be to reduce their AC (if a change is necessary).

Sure, that would be simpler, but it would also make the innate AC-growth of gargoyles much more similar to nagas and draconians. Maybe my idea is terrible for other reasons, and *if* nothing else, a straightforward nerf would be better than leaving as is. But my proposal would keep up (and deepen) the "tough and yet fragile" characterization that gargoyles already have (kind of) going for them, which would help give them a unique feel and differentiate them from other species.


EDIT:
Amnesiac: yes, definitely want to avoid tedious game play, but that can be fixed by simply making AC regenerate about same rate, or even a bit more quickly, than HP. I think it would be simple to tweak the rate so that your AC loss (and maybe resistance loss) matters only during fights, without adding any more tedium than already exists due to resting to regenerate HP.

Some12fat2move: Yeah you got the idea behind why I proposed this. If AC is directly linked to HP that would work too, and may be more intuitive. On the other hand, having AC diminish semi-randomly by 1d3 or whatever when you take a nasty phsyical hit would play out a bit differently, in that getting hit with bad elemental damage or smite or hellfire would not diminish your AC, which would continue providing the protection you need, precisely when it is most critical. On the other hand, you won't be able to keep up that AC in very long, drawn out battles in which you are taking lots of hard hits.

Either way could work, it would just depend on what type of situations one wants to make a bit more dangerous for Gargoyle, and which ones you want to keep the same. With HP-linked, you are tank until you start taking damage, at which point there will be kind of an exponential increase in damage as AC plummets. In my proposal, you become more vulnerable the more the fight drags out, assuming some physical blows are being exchanged.

[Wahaha]

There are many races that are more likely to win a game than Gr, so I don't see a problem.

[Klown]

There are many races that are more likely to win a game than Gr, so I don't see a problem.

But it's new so it must be nerfed!

[epsilon]

But it's new so it must be nerfed!

Well, Gargoyle Fighter was my first character, that get up to Shoals rune just by hitting "O" and "Tab". Died in Spider Nest due to too much of "O" and "Tab" on Orb spiders. Except them, the only specie I remember, that pwned absolutely anything as soon as met it early game was Naga with constriction on XL 1.

[dck]

How can you not remember trolls.

[Amnesiac]

but that can be fixed by simply making AC regenerate about same rate, or even a bit more quickly, than HP. I think it would be simple to tweak the rate so that your AC loss (and maybe resistance loss) matters only during fights, without adding any more tedium than already exists due to resting to regenerate HP.

it will encourage resting and running away more than you would with normal races, just to restore AC and be at full AC as much as possible. I think AC should be fixed after all, but possibly lower than now, like MarvinPA said.

[epsilon]

How can you not remember trolls.

With trolls you need to "C"hop as often as "Tab". And they tend to die much earlier with such advanced tactics.

[brendan]

An even simpler version would just be to reduce their AC (if a change is necessary).

Yeah. Let's avoid introducing unwarranted complexity. If there's a simple fix we should explore that first.

[some12fat2move]

Well there's also the problem wherein I can say "I'm going to play a hill orc" and accidentally click gargoyle and never notice the difference. I guess deep elves and high elves are already like that so there's a precedent, but still, just reducing gargoyle AC wouldn't add any differentiation. Implementing the OP's suggestion (or my variation of it) would add at least a little bit of differentiation. Of course, there may be better ideas floating around for making gargoyles more unique, which should really be looked into.

[BlackSheep]

Why do gargoyles have a 0 exp aptitude? In addition to reducing their AC gains, we could also slow how quickly they level up.

[Leafsnail]

Well, Gargoyle Fighter was my first character, that get up to Shoals rune just by hitting "O" and "Tab". Died in Spider Nest due to too much of "O" and "Tab" on Orb spiders.

I think that's mainly because Shoals isn't very hard. I think most relatively strong melee characters could beat it if they got flight.

[and into]

Epsilon's recall of constriction feels right: Gargoyles currently feel a bit like constriction when it was first introduced to nagas. It was (rightfully) deemed a bit too strong and a reasonable nerf was introduced. I don't hate new things and I don't want Gargoyles nerf-beaten into uselessness, I think it is fine that they are very strong and hope they remain so. I just think they are currently a bit too strong and in a somewhat uninteresting way.

My proposal tried to address that, though perhaps it is a bit overcomplicated.

[Bloax]

Why do gargoyles have a 0 exp aptitude? In addition to reducing their AC gains, we could also slow how quickly they level up.

If you reduce the rate at which they raise in levels, that would already take care of reducing their AC gains - since their bonus AC is directly bound to their experience level.
If you do both things at once it sounds like overnerfing to me, because there will be plenty of heavyhitters to splat to with both less HP and slightly less AC due to the reduced experience gain.

[Mankeli]

There are many races that are more likely to win a game than Gr, so I don't see a problem.

While I completely agree with you, this is not necessarily a good argument not to nerf gargyoles. I mean, if everytime Y says "X is overpowered" Z can respond: "Deep dwarfs and the like exists".

However, that being said, there seems to be actully quite many species that are easier than gargoyles, as you well pointed out. I do think gargoyles are very strong but DD, Ce, Mi, Tr, HO, Dr and Sp are all probably easier (well, not in every background, obviously and Sp's are not that straightforward eventhough very easy). So maybe they don't need a nerf at all!

I would like to nerf their exp aptitude if something is decided to be done. Let's say -2. Not a huge nerf by any means but would slow down the AC gain. If you feel it's not enough make the innate AC ceiling be 15 instead of 20 or something. Please don't take away the initial AC, not dying to an d:1 gecko is one of the most fun things about gargoyles.

[Bloax]

I would like to nerf their exp aptitude if something is decided to be done. Let's say -2.

  Code:

<Henzell> Exp: Ha: 1!, Hu: 1!, Ko: 1!, Op: 0, Gh: 0, HO: 0, Mf: 0, Gr: 0, Gr: , Te: 0, Na: 0, Og: 0, Mu: -1, Mi: -1, Ds: -1, Sp: -1, Dj: -1, : -1, Vp: -1, HE: -1, DE: -1, LO: -1, DD: -1, Ce: -1, Tr: -1, Fe: -1, Dg: -2*

Not a huge nerf by any means

Making them level just as slow as demigods would be a huge nerf. Because it's not like the early-midgame lacks in the heavy-hitters department (komodo dragons/hill giants/hydras).

Please don't take away the initial AC, not dying to an d:1 gecko is one of the most fun things about gargoyles.

This is very right though, actually not dying to the first adder or jackal pack you see is a great feature.

[siprus]

Gargoyles are like better dragons. They have huge natural armor with ability to wear armor, generally good (though specialized) aptitudes. With very good resistances and free flying (though latter being very minor advantage). I think their xp aptitude should be at-least -1, And personally I would generally lower their aptitudes across the board(or lower few which are important to everyone for example fighting -> -1 would be very broad aptitude nerf.).

[BlackSheep]

Nerf number one

[Mankeli]

Nerf number one

Thank you for sharing this for the likes of me that don't follow irc etc. (consistently).

I'm not sure I like this nerf. 1) You probably wouldn't even notice this nerf in many games (of course more nerfs may be on the horizon) and 2) The innate resistances are one of the best things gargoyles have going for them (not in terms of power but in terms of hazzle-freeness) so in those games that you do happen to notice this nerf, I think is the wrong way to go. Why you ask?

Because rElec and rPoison both are very situational. You want rElec against electric golems and Nicola + dragons if you happen to get bankshotted via stupidity (or early game instadeath via monster with wand of lightning/electrocution). You want rPois for unlucky very very early game adders and monsters with venom weapons, later for snake/spider and it's nice in swamp as well. Other than that, it is not very useful. I find it somewhat annoying that I have two "elements", electricity and poison, that I normally don't have to worry about at all but which I do want to protect myself against in very few situations. Exaggeration by generalising: Carrying that potion of resistance around just for Nicola is an annoying hazzle IMO (of course there are other uses for res pots).

I would still rather directly nerf the middle game-end game armour bonus (lower cap) and/or nerf the exp aptitude.

[DracheReborn]

Interesting, my first thought is that electric eels now join orc priests as early/mid game threats that Gr has to be wary of.

That seems to be Gr's schtick isn't it? High AC lulls you into feeling indestructible, until you run into something like an orc priest that Gr is particularly vulnerable to because of low HP.

[Hurkyl]

Goblins with a dagger of electrocution too.

Is that commit message really the reason? It makes it sound quite odd... like someone felt Gargoyles needed a nerf, but without really knowing why there's a problem and how to address it, so they just did something they thought was irrelevant enough not to cause objections, so they could say that they made a nerf.

[Mankeli]

I'm not sure electric eels where ever a threat to anyone since they cannot follow you in land.

Goblins with a dagger of electrocution too.

Once again not something you'd even notice on most games but yeah. I somehow failed to mention this eventhough I mentioned very early game venom weapons which I find much less problematic for early crawlers

[galehar]

Is that commit message really the reason? It makes it sound quite odd... like someone felt Gargoyles needed a nerf

Well, the commit message doesn't say anything about nerfing, so I don't think it's the reason. The motivation seems to be more like simplification by trimming irrelevant features.

[Klown]

They're the only melee species who have to go in -20% hp vs. spiked club ogres(who nearly OHK them early game; along with similar foes throughout the entire game.). Don't nerf them.
They'll light up the tournament because they're new and fun, and have the coolest looking tile of any character.

[BlackSheep]

If you want to trim irrelevant features, why not remove their slow metabolism? I have no idea why they got that in the first place.

[DracheReborn]

I'm not sure electric eels where ever a threat to anyone since they cannot follow you in land.

I've, uh, lost a few characters to electric eels . Some of them were pure stupidity, i.e. bullrushing a eel in the hopes of ending it quickly, then finding out he has 1-2 friends just out of LOS... On some water-filled levels with open layouts though, sometimes it's very difficult to avoid eels.

[and into]

I agree that rElec is neither here nor there really, but I'd actually prefer they keep rElec for reasons Mankeli articulated very well. [EDIT: And Blacksheep is right about slow metabolism being the really "Why is this here?" intrinsic.]

Maybe I should clarify slightly what my reasoning was in the OP.

Yes, making claims to "overpowered" is perhaps dubious so long as DD, Trolls, and Centaurs are in the game. But as I said, I like that different species offer different kinds of specific challenges, as well as different overall levels of difficulty throughout the game. That's good design.

What I probably did not emphasize enough is that what really bothered me about the gargoyle Bes and Gls I've run is that once I've gotten to Lair and have a good piece of armor on, I honestly feel like the necessity for good tactics (usually the core skill for playing melee dudes) begin to become unnecessary—not entirely, of course, but to a degree that I don't like, all the same. By Lair, melee Gargoyles in (widely available by this point) plate armor basically have at least ~40AC [EDIT: meant ~30 AC], *on average*. Getting AC that high, that early, is usually the result of exceptional luck in finding good items or in getting Ds mutations early or something. With gargoyles it is the rule rather than the exception, and it leads to a situation in which you can get completely surrounded by anything weaker than spiny frogs and not really have to worry that much. And unlike lucky boosts to AC from items, gargoyles' AC just continues to get better and better as game goes on.

My proposal would not actually make gargoyles much weaker overall (at least in the way I envision it), but would make tactics matter to them more once they've gotten their tank AC going, because the innate AC boost would be less reliable when surrounded in melee: Every melee attack that does above a certain threshhold of damage has a chance to take off some of your AC temporarily.

To put it another way: Allowing yourself to get surrounded by non-popcorn melee enemies should be punished, regardless of species—it should be dangerous enough to prompt one to really think about what they are doing and consider how to use consumables, etc. It certainly does when that happens to DD, Trolls, and Centaurs even though they are powerful species overall. In my experience, after a certain point I could too often ignore those sorts of situations with Gargoyles. I think that's the problem, really, which is why I concocted the proposal in the OP, which I don't think would be much of a nerf to gargoyles that are played smart (tactical retreats, taking on only one or two enemies at a time, etc.), but *would* make it much harder to get away with mindless play. I think that's an improvement.

[Sandman25]

rPois is as valuable as rF+/rC+ to me, there are too many monsters with poison. Lair, 3 out of 4 Lair branches, Swamp Dragon/Green Ugly Things/Aizul in Dungeon. Also it is very nice late game when you can put poison on your position to avoid Miasma or item destruction clouds, golden dragons, poisonous draconians, green death can be nasty too.

[and into]

rPois is as valuable as rF+/rC+ to me, there are too many monsters with poison. Lair, 3 out of 4 Lair branches, Swamp Dragon/Green Ugly Things/Aizul in Dungeon. Also it is very nice late game when you can put poison on your position to avoid Miasma or item destruction clouds, golden dragons, poisonous draconians, green death can be nasty too.

This is a bit off topic, but...

The poison status is not as bad as the base damage being dealt by poison spells like p. arrow and venom bolt. Protection from the status "poison," outside early game where it is helpful (but far from necessary), it is only important in certain branches or vaults. rPois is also very nice when you are using mephitic cloud and p. cloud because you throw those spells around without worrying about yourself.

Still, outside snake or spider, rPois is not as important as *the first level* of rF (definitely) or even rC. However, rPois does probably compare in importance favorably with the second pip of rF/rC throughout the game. I agree that rPois is more useful than rElec in general, but it is nice not to have to worry about getting double-hit with lightning from ogre mages and the like.

[Bloax]

They'll light up the tournament because they're new and fun, and have the coolest looking tile of any character.

Did I ever mention that the reason they're fun is because they:

• Can withstand a jackal pack right off the bat
• Give adders the finger
• Laugh at eels
• Immune to bullshit like

  Goblins with a dagger of electrocution

  and Nikola taking a nap behind the door you just opened and suddenly you are dead. (Let's not forget their tiny hp pool.)
• Don't have to deal with the multitude of low hp warning due to poison while resting
• Don't die to poison from a lucky adder or kobold with a blowgun

Removing subtleties like rElec - which they have because they're made of stone - and if they really are then technically they should have rF+ too - just for the sheer sake of removing it doesn't outweigh the little, cool benefits it gives.

[Klown]

& slow metabolism. Less 'you're hungry omg eat something', makes the game a lot more fun imo.
Maybe if Bloax made a gargoyle with tophat picture, people would stop trying to kill them.

[Wahaha]

By Lair, melee Gargoyles in (widely available by this point) plate armor basically have at least ~40AC, *on average*.

[11:28] <Sequell> 2804 milestones for * (gr br.enter=lair): avg(ac)=22.1

[11:28] <Sequell> 374 milestones for * (grbe br.enter=lair): avg(ac)=25.14

!lm * grbe br.enter=lair ac>40
[11:30] <Sequell> 6. [2013-10-20 18:45:07] Asti the Fighter (L11 GrBe) entered the Lair of Beasts on turn 10194. (D:10)

Really now?

Yes Lair is fairly easy with Gr defenses, but the other parts of the game are not as easy. As soon as you leave Lair you have to face orc priests and strong Orcish Mines enemies with -20% hp. And then centaur warriors, etc. Before Lair, some enemies are less dangerous for Gr but some other enemies are more dangerous.

[Sandman25]

This is a bit off topic, but...

The poison status is not as bad as the base damage being dealt by poison spells like p. arrow and venom bolt. Protection from the status "poison," outside early game where it is helpful (but far from necessary), it is only important in certain branches or vaults. rPois is also very nice when you are using mephitic cloud and p. cloud because you throw those spells around without worrying about yourself.

Still, outside snake or spider, rPois is not as important as *the first level* of rF (definitely) or even rC. However, rPois does probably compare in importance favorably with the second pip of rF/rC throughout the game. I agree that rPois is more useful than rElec in general, but it is nice not to have to worry about getting double-hit with lightning from ogre mages and the like.

Sorry, yes, it is off topic indeed. I had one game without access to rPois until ZoT4 or something like that so I think we just agree to disagree here. rF++ is not a big deal unless you are fighting OoF, even with 60 damage after AC it decreases damage from 30 to 20.

[and into]

By Lair, melee Gargoyles in (widely available by this point) plate armor basically have at least ~40AC, *on average*.

[11:28] <Sequell> 2804 milestones for * (gr br.enter=lair): avg(ac)=22.1

[11:28] <Sequell> 374 milestones for * (grbe br.enter=lair): avg(ac)=25.14

!lm * grbe br.enter=lair ac>40
[11:30] <Sequell> 6. [2013-10-20 18:45:07] Asti the Fighter (L11 GrBe) entered the Lair of Beasts on turn 10194. (D:10)

Really now?

Yes Lair is fairly easy with Gr defenses, but the other parts of the game are not as easy. As soon as you leave Lair you have to face orc priests and strong Orcish Mines enemies with -20% hp. And then centaur warriors, etc. Before Lair, some enemies are less dangerous for Gr but some other enemies are more dangerous.

Sorry, I meant 30 AC on average being very easy to obtain, but that is still a lot of AC that is essentially gauranteed to be attainable by that point in game. I'll edit my earlier post for typo. 40 AC is easily attainable by Vaults on Gargoyles, again without anything exceptional dropping (no rings of protection, no super-enchanted armor, etc.)

Lower HP makes smiters and hell fire much more of an issue, that's true for all lower-HP characters, gargoyles have no specific liability in that area beyond lower HP. It just *seems* like a special liability for gargoyles because "guaranteed, slotless ring of robustness" by level 12 and +20 AC by end game means that you walk all over so many of the things that do not ignore AC (including centaur warriors, and nearly everything in the game, in fact).

But that's fine. As I said, the fact that gargoyles are extremely powerful doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the degree to which long stretches of near-mindless play becomes possible once you get a melee gargoyle rolling in mid-game. This can happen to an extent with other builds and species, sure, but it has seemed especially consistent and bad with the gargoyles I've run. I think that's a problem, which is what my proposal sought to address. My proposal wouldn't really affect gargoyle survivability against centaur warriors (your example), anyway.

I actually agree with Bloax and others that taking away rElec seems neither here nor there. I'm not "pro-nerfing gargoyles." What I am in favor of is eliminating mindless play and punishing bad tactics. I think some changes with gargoyles are needed, purely as a means to that end. I'd be completely happy for gargoyles to remain powerful overall and have them join the ranks of other species that are suited for certain power-gamey strategies.

[Sandman25]

I think near-mindless play is ok. It can lead to death at some point and will teach players that tactics is always important because you never know if some dangerous monster will come into view while you are surrounded by popcorn. Some players enjoy near-mindless play sometimes (myself included), it's a nice change after playing harder combos.

[Bloax]

It also leads to some fun possibilities. And that's just a realtime 70% otabotabotab speedrun, going for insanely low turncounts (we're talking 3 runes around 10k turns) is very fun with a gargoyle.
Not only because it's very much possible - but also because all the worst things about the earlygame except priests (and the occasional Sigmund) aren't nearly as bad for them.

[Mankeli]

It also leads to some fun possibilities. And that's just a realtime 70% otabotabotab speedrun, going for insanely low turncounts (we're talking 3 runes around 10k turns) is very fun with a gargoyle.
Not only because it's very much possible - but also because all the worst things about the earlygame except priests (and the occasional Sigmund) aren't nearly as bad for them.

Well, I don't think speedrunning is a very good argument, however, those presented by me, and into and you earlier are IMO (although I do find speedrunning gargoyles fun). So bring back rElec, please, and don't touch the innate resistances !

[mattlistener]

I think the OP's idea of damageable skin sounds fun and interesting. It would create a strategic challenge for "long fights" or "big hitters" that's distinct from what other races experience. Other races have (for a given fight) a static threshold of how much incoming damage per time / spikiness they can safely handle. Gr starts a fight with a higher threshold they can handle, but it tends to degrade as a fight drags on or adds trickle in. Current AC becomes a resource that skillful play requires paying attention to. Sounds great as a racial option.

AC regenerating a little faster than HP would not add to tedium (unless there was a lot of healing), and Slow Metabolism has already removed some tedium compared to other races.

[XuaXua]

Gargoyles get higher AC. Can only heal by eating rocks, large or otherwise.

[b4rR31_r0l1]

And then, when you are a Earth Elementalist, you can finally make a food fight in Crawl. So much want